"Humans 'very likely' making earth warmer" is wrong

In article , Joe Fischer wrote:


A lot of people are thinking and
saying the US has done nothing, but they should
check out all the projects that have been started
in the last 10 or 15 years, the government does
not need to force everybody here to do things,
efficiency is good for profit, and cooperation is
better than penalties or fines.

The belief in human caused global warming is being used to gain more control
over the population, to consolidate wealth, to end any sort of freedom of the
masses, and put the whole world in the control of a small group of
elites.

I will believe that human caused global warming is a serious issue when
and only when, nations like China are forced to do something about it.
Right now, things like the Kyoto treaty are designed simply to relocate
manufacturing from places where there _ARE_ environmental protections to
places where there are practically _NONE_. They expect us to believe that
CO2 released in Ohio is bad, but CO2 released in Tianjin is of no
concern. Not to mention all the pollution controls that are required in
Ohio, the limits, the regulations, all to keep the environment cleaner
but simply don't exist in other places in the world like China.

Where people don't even have basic freedoms CO2 doesn't even seem to be
an issue. It's because they don't have an economy to crush so it can be
controlled, because there is no wealth to extract from the people by
taxes or any other means. It's already in the hands of the elite.

And before someone yaps up that poor china cannot afford pollution
controls, look at how much in US dollars alone they hold. They could
easily buy all the modern pollution controls. (which of course would
probably mostly come from US companies and help the US economy)

But it isn't about the environment, it's about power, control, and
wealth.

The amount of ethanol and biodiesel from
soy beans alone may amount to more neutral CO2
fuel than the efforts at conservation or any effort
by any other country.

Of course. And the US started cleaning things up earlier as well.

And we have to try to do all this while about
2 million people every year abandon their homeland
to come here to try to find a better life and be free
of centralized government restrictions and interference
in their lives.

The whole thing makes more sense when you put it into the context of
destroying the grand experiment in liberty and taking back the wealth
that it created that was better split amung the population than any other
previous nation.


All that said, given the total radiation output of the sun, the warming
of other planets, and other solar and solar system events that are
abnormal to say the least, I have serious doubts that the primary driver is
human produced CO2.

No, I will not argue this tired topic again just because some people got
together to announce their pre-determined conclusions. Google stuff up if
you don't want to believe me.

Mauried wrote:
On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:12:28 -0600, Logan Shaw
wrote:

donquijote1954 wrote:
Hey, that I knew. What is missing in this report though is who among
humans are to blame. See, NOT ALL HUMANS POLLUTE: some drive Stupid
Unnecessary Vehicles while others ride bicycles.
Others simply post spam and troll messages to Usenet, thus wasting
electricity on the thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of
thousands?) of Usenet servers worldwide.

- Logan

It really doesnt matter whether mankind is or isnt causing global
warming because there simply is no solution to a global problem.
The world is comprised of some 190 countries all with their own
Governments who will all do their own thing and there will be no
agreement about what should be done, ever.
The world has no mechanism for solving a global problem.
How is anyone going to stop a country like China from building its
500 coal fired power stations.


Considering that countries like China don't give a damn and the
situation does, in fact get worse, the global warming phenomena might
make the weather wildly unpredictable to the point of taking out most of
humanity. I have seen things like tornadoes here in California that were
once considered impossible ten or twenty years ago. The planet might
just decide to scratch us 'fleas' off.
Bill Baka

Bill Baka wrote:
Mauried wrote:
On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:12:28 -0600, Logan Shaw
wrote:

donquijote1954 wrote:
Hey, that I knew. What is missing in this report though is who
among humans are to blame. See, NOT ALL HUMANS POLLUTE: some drive
Stupid Unnecessary Vehicles while others ride bicycles.
Others simply post spam and troll messages to Usenet, thus wasting
electricity on the thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of
thousands?) of Usenet servers worldwide.

- Logan

It really doesnt matter whether mankind is or isnt causing global
warming because there simply is no solution to a global problem.
The world is comprised of some 190 countries all with their own
Governments who will all do their own thing and there will be no
agreement about what should be done, ever.
The world has no mechanism for solving a global problem.
How is anyone going to stop a country like China from building its
500 coal fired power stations.

Considering that countries like China don't give a damn and the situation does, in fact get worse,
the global warming phenomena might make the weather wildly unpredictable

Not a chance. We've seen MUCH bigger variations in world temps in the past.

to the point of taking out most of humanity.

Not a chance. Even the ice ages didnt manage to do that.

I have seen things like tornadoes here in California that were once considered impossible ten or
twenty years ago.

And those didnt even get close to taking out most of humanity.

The planet might just decide to scratch us 'fleas' off.

Only in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.

On 2007-02-01, donquijote1954 wrote:

See, NOT ALL HUMANS POLLUTE: some drive Stupid
Unnecessary Vehicles while others ride bicycles.

Quibble: all humans pollute (what happens to your waste? Where does your
food come from?), but some pollute to a greater extent than others.

And how about those who --like me-- want to ride a bike, but find there's
no safe place for it. It's a frightful jungle out there, you know.

As a bicycle commuter myself, I can commiserate with you. Automobiles in
general are a very energy-inefficient means of transporting people and
public transportation should be encouraged as a way (not the only way!)
to reduce overall energy consumption. A huge amount of resources are
dedicated to providing infrastructure to an automobile society. If we
can reduce dependence on automobiles not only will it become easier for
pedestrians and bicyclists, but money can be freed for other worthwhile
projects to make our urban areas safer for everybody.

--

John )

Rod Speed wrote:
Bill Baka wrote:

Considering that countries like China don't give a damn and the situation does, in fact get worse,
the global warming phenomena might make the weather wildly unpredictable

Not a chance. We've seen MUCH bigger variations in world temps in the past.

There have been events like the mini-Ice age due to some really big
volcanoes blowing their tops and putting megatons of materials into the
air. Not a St. Helens size but more like the Krakatoa type.

to the point of taking out most of humanity.

Not a chance. Even the ice ages didnt manage to do that.

No, it didn't, but there were only so many humans that did survive, and
they managed to to hunt various animals to extinction. Humans sure do
make a difference, now and then.

I have seen things like tornadoes here in California that were once considered impossible ten or
twenty years ago.

And those didnt even get close to taking out most of humanity.

Those are just a pre-cursor to what CAN happen.

The planet might just decide to scratch us 'fleas' off.

Only in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.

Wow. I wasn't trolling for either an asshole or a moron, but I seem to
have found one.
London had an all-time record high over 100 degrees F within the last 2
years and we have had record cold temperature here in California.
What we might get at first is wildly fluctuating weather, them WHAM, an
ice age or a hot age.
I'll let someone else take up the fight.
BTW, I don't drink or use drugs, except for chocolate.
Bill Baka

John Thompson wrote:


As a bicycle commuter myself, I can commiserate with you. Automobiles in
general are a very energy-inefficient means of transporting people and
public transportation should be encouraged as a way (not the only way!)
to reduce overall energy consumption. A huge amount of resources are
dedicated to providing infrastructure to an automobile society. If we
can reduce dependence on automobiles not only will it become easier for
pedestrians and bicyclists, but money can be freed for other worthwhile
projects to make our urban areas safer for everybody.


Public transportation generally requires approximately the same BTUs per
passenger mile, about 3500, as do private motor vehicles on average.
Short haul public transportation is also a bigger competitor to walking
and biycling than it is to automobiles. That is, short haul public
transportation reduces bicycling and walking to a greater extent than it
does car use, turning low energy users into chauffered big energy users.
If short haul public transportation didn't exist, how would those users
get around? They'd walk, bike, drive alone, or carpool.

Further, bus public transit is heavy and destroys the pavement,
something that is very important to bicyclists. And when the bus pulls
over to the curb, there is conflict with bicyclists.

Frankly, public transportation and bicycling have nothing in common.
Bicycling has much more in common with automobile travel.

http://www.bts.gov/publications/nati...atistics/2004/
html/table_04_20.html

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...t_fotw221.html

Wayne

On Fri, Bill Baka wrote:

Considering that countries like China don't give a damn and the
situation does, in fact get worse, the global warming phenomena might
make the weather wildly unpredictable to the point of taking out most of
humanity.

Why sure, global warming might even make a
natural blonde's eyes brown.

I have seen things like tornadoes here in California that were
once considered impossible ten or twenty years ago. The planet might
just decide to scratch us 'fleas' off.
Bill Baka

Tornados are possible almost anyplace (level
ground usually though), and there is plenty of wind
shear in California sometimes with the Satana Winds,
but what is usually needed is hail conditions, and
lots of precipitation and cold air aloft helps create
that condition.

Joe Fischer

Bill Baka writes:
Rod Speed wrote:

The planet might just decide to scratch us 'fleas' off.

Only in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.

Wow. I wasn't trolling for either an asshole or a moron, but I seem
to have found one.

London had an all-time record high over 100 degrees F within the last 2

"all-time" being since the end of the little ice age around 1650.
Or more precisely, since temperatures have been methodically
recorded within the urban heat island of London. Which is around
1850.

You should note that the Thames was frozen over for 14 weeks in 1063
and 1076. Later from London Bridge to Gravesend from November 1434
through to the following February. In 1515, the ice on the river was
trafficable and the cold continued for a long number of winters;
with thefirst Frost Fair recorded in 1564.

In 1683, severe frosts in London killed plant and animal life. But
it didn't end the In the winter of 1739-40, another great frost
was recorded; a great inconvenience and hazard to shipping
downstream of the Bridge; and once again a winter playground/market
place upstream.

In 1814, ice floes were carried downstream, crashing into bridges on
the way.

Now; you're worried that it's warmer than what it was during an "ice
age"?

Temperature records start after the above events.

years and we have had record cold temperature here in California.

Since temperatures were recorded... i.e. very recently.

What we might get at first is wildly fluctuating weather, them WHAM, an
ice age or a hot age.

We've had 4 fore-warnings of ice-age or catastrophic warming since
1980 or thereabouts.

I'll let someone else take up the fight.

If you have a rational argument based on real-world facts and not
fantasies, then do continue.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | "If we let things terrify us,
X against HTML mail | life will not be worth living."
/ \ and postings | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

Bill Baka wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Bill Baka wrote

Considering that countries like China don't give a damn

They do actually, which is why they are building nukes.

and the situation does, in fact get worse, the global warming phenomena might make the weather
wildly unpredictable

Not a chance. We've seen MUCH bigger variations in world temps in the past.

There have been events like the mini-Ice age due to some really big
volcanoes blowing their tops and putting megatons of materials into
the air. Not a St. Helens size but more like the Krakatoa type.

Yes, but that wont happen due to man made CO2 etc.

Thats going to be a much more gradual effect.

to the point of taking out most of humanity.

Not a chance. Even the ice ages didnt manage to do that.

No, it didn't, but there were only so many humans that did survive,
and they managed to to hunt various animals to extinction.

That extinction didnt happen due to hunting.

Humans sure do make a difference, now and then.

Yes, but thats an entirely separate matter to that silly
claim about 'to the point of taking out most of humanity'

The striking thing is how adaptable humanity is to climate variation.

In spades now compared with during the ice ages etc.

We've worked out how to grow stuff where it grows best and
move it to where its going to be consumed for centurys now.

And how to move immense numbers of people around the world permanently too.

I have seen things like tornadoes here in California that were once considered impossible ten or
twenty years ago.

And those didnt even get close to taking out most of humanity.

Those are just a pre-cursor to what CAN happen.

Nothing will be taking out most of humanity, you watch.

The planet might just decide to scratch us 'fleas' off.

Only in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.

Wow. I wasn't trolling for either an asshole or a moron, but I seem to have found one.

Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

London had an all-time record high over 100 degrees F within the last
2 years and we have had record cold temperature here in California.

Neither of which are anything special where hordes of people live.

What we might get at first is wildly fluctuating weather, them WHAM, an ice age or a hot age.

Taint gunna happen on that silly WHAM claim.

I'll let someone else take up the fight.

Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

BTW, I don't drink or use drugs, except for chocolate.

Thats the drug you're crazed by, stupid.

John Thompson wrote
donquijote1954 wrote

See, NOT ALL HUMANS POLLUTE: some drive Stupid
Unnecessary Vehicles while others ride bicycles.

Quibble: all humans pollute

Nope, some dont.

(what happens to your waste?

Some use their waste productively.

Where does your food come from?),

Some produce more using their waste.

but some pollute to a greater extent than others.

Some dont pollute at all.

And how about those who --like me-- want to ride a bike, but find
there's no safe place for it. It's a frightful jungle out there, you know.

As a bicycle commuter myself, I can commiserate with you. Automobiles
in general are a very energy-inefficient means of transporting people
and public transportation should be encouraged as a way (not the only
way!) to reduce overall energy consumption. A huge amount of
resources are dedicated to providing infrastructure to an automobile
society. If we can reduce dependence on automobiles not only will it
become easier for pedestrians and bicyclists, but money can be freed
for other worthwhile projects to make our urban areas safer for everybody.

It doesnt work like that.