Ontario Helmet Law being pushed through

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:05:39 GMT, Chris Phillipo
wrote:

It's not a crime. You get a ticket, you don't go to jail.

Are you sure of that? Over here, the pro-speeding lobby love tom
claim that speeding is not a crime because you don't go to jail, but
they are flat wrong. The fact that the state prosecutes the offence
makes it a criminal matter, and it is heard in the criminal courts.

Speeding is public endangerment with a deadly weapon. Please keep your
posts on topic if at all possible.

Very droll. So, are you sure of that? Because the proposed law over
here would have been criminal law, and existing traffic laws (example
above) are criminal law.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:03:38 GMT, Chris Phillipo
wrote:

The helmet lobby? Do they fly black helicopters? I bet those
hypocritical *******s don't even wear helmets while doing it!

What point are you trying to make here?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:02:32 GMT, Chris Phillipo
wrote:

Very droll. So, are you sure of that? Because the proposed law over
here would have been criminal law, and existing traffic laws (example
above) are criminal law.

I said no one is going to jail for not wearing a helmet and I stand by
that. Show me proof to the contrary.

No, what you actually said was that because no-one is going to jail,
it is not a crime. That does not follow. I am asking: are you sure
that the helmet law is outside the criminal code? Because the law
proposed in the UK and to the best of my knowledge the laws in Aus
and NZ, are criminal law. This is actually a completely straight
question.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:03:56 GMT, Chris Phillipo
wrote:


The helmet lobby? Do they fly black helicopters? I bet those
hypocritical *******s don't even wear helmets while doing it!

What point are you trying to make here?

That the helmet lobby in Canada is a figment of someone's overactive
imagination.

The helmet lobby exists. It is indisputable. People are out there
lobbying for helmet laws, and that is why you have this bill in
progress. There are people all over the world lobbying for helmet
laws.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Chris Phillipo wrote:



I said no one is going to jail for not wearing a helmet and I stand by
that. Show me proof to the contrary.

FWIW, in Australia there _have_ been instances of people going to jail
for repeatedly violating mandatory helmet laws. Those people were
minority folks or poor folks.

I can't say the same would happen in Canada, of course. But it has
happened.


--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

Bill Z. wrote:

Frank Krygowski writes:


Bill Z. wrote:


Frank Krygowski writes:


If all these helmets are really doing what you believe, the benefits
should be detectable.

There's been an increase in red-light running and other reckless
behavior, plus a huge increase in the average vehicle size, all of
which make cycling more dangerous than before.

Ah. Interesting conjecture. But I see you've posted no evidence to
support it - as usual.


Read the ****ing newspapers.

:-) Wipe the froth off your mouth and keyboard, Bill. You're losing
control yet again!


See http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/12/05/MNW14097.DTL
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/archive/1996/12/31/NEWS8420.dtl
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1996/09/12/MN74703.DTL
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1996/09/11/MN57241.DTL
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/archive/1995/11/14/EDITORIAL4921.dtl

Thanks - but what you've given there isn't much in the way of data. In
particular, you haven't proved that bicycling's gotten more dangerous.
Given that the red light cameras are catching these people, it's
entirely plausible that things are _safer_ for cycling. Yes, I know
there were people who said they felt walking was more dangerous - but
really, I was hoping for _data_, not uncorroborated opinions!

Now's the time for you to post some evidence of both the increase in
red light running, and the increased cycling danger.


See above, including the cyclist fatalities. Couple that change in
behavior with larger vehicles and the results are simply obvious
to anyone with half a brain.

Actually, the sites you referenced talked about just one cyclist
fatality and _three_ gravely injured pedestrians - at least one of which
was a head injury. It wasn't clear if they were fatalities or not.

If a person were to take your contribution seriously, it seems they'd
get going promoting helmets for pedestrians, no?

Is that your next mission?



In any case, your idea is that helmets are helping safety, but the help
is undetectable because it's being offset by an even greater increase in
cyclist danger. So far, you've provided no data, only newspaper stories
from 8 or 9 years ago.

Got data?


--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:03:56 GMT, Chris Phillipo
wrote:



[The] helmet lobby in Canada is a figment of someone's overactive
imagination.


The helmet lobby exists. It is indisputable. People are out there
lobbying for helmet laws, and that is why you have this bill in
progress. There are people all over the world lobbying for helmet
laws.

Guy

There's _certainly_ a helmet lobby in the US! I know several people who
actively promote mandatory helmets, including lobbying legislatures!

There's also Randy Swart's site, in which he lobbies for mandatory
helmets for all ages. And Philip Graitcer's site which does the same.
Both are well connected and (apparently) well financed.

Chris, where do you think these MHL ideas come from?


--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

Chris Phillipo wrote:
In article ,
says...

If you sell bicycles, then you really ought to know that ownership does
not
equal ridership. Today, probably 95% of all bicycles sold never see 100
miles, ever.

Club ridership is also misleading. There is more club ridership, but not
to
many years ago almost nobody rode in clubs.

Austin



Grasp for a few more straws, you'll be able to build your own haystack.

You have a stake in the outcome, in case you didn't notice. Since you make
money selling bicycle helmets you need the result to come out a certain way.

Austin

Chris Phillipo wrote:
In article ,
says...
Subject: Ontario Helmet Law being pushed through
From: "AustinMN"
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.misc, rec.bicycles.soc, ont.bicycle

Chris Phillipo wrote:
In article ,
says...

Unlike cynical Bill, some people have ethical values that prevent them
becoming lawbreakers. They quit cycling through self-enforcement or in
the case of kids parental enforcement.


Well not counting you, I haven't met that person.

I've met a dozen. I'm even married to a woman who has said "If they make
me
wear a helmet, I'm not riding." I know her well enough that it makes no
to
her difference if the law is enforced or not.


If it's not enforced, who is making here do anything? You perhaps?

She, unlike you, has a conscience.

Get an enema. You'll feel better, and you won't be so full of ****.

Austin

Dragan Cvetkovic" wrote in message
...
"AustinMN" writes:

There are no X characters in my address

Indeed there are none.

Dragan

Yes, indeed. An oversight since corrected.

Austin
--
I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
There are no X characters in my address