DT Swiss 460 rims

On 9/16/2020 2:42 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 12:23:58 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 4:22:33 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:09:26 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:29:01 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 12:52:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Op dinsdag 15 september 2020 om 18:50:35 UTC+2 schreef :
These are tubeless compatible do they have traditional spoke access holes?
Deacon Mark
yes.

Well more questions. I used the DT Swiss spoke calculator and input the hubs dimensions that I measure myself to make certain. It is a basic Novotec f842sb hub. According the the calculations it says 282 for DS and 287 for NON DS. That seems to be more than usual of 2 mm difference. I am sure of my measuring does that seem reasonable to have 5mm difference?

Deacon Mark
IIRC, its around 281/282 3X NDS on a Shimano Ultegra hub with the DT460s. You're numbers are way off unless that Novatec is a high-low flange hub, and even if it were, it would have to have a really low NDS. Could you send us a link to the hub. Those numbers don't pull anything up.

-- Jay Beattie.
2 cross my rim my bad

Deacon mark
I don't know the hub but suspect the spoke calc is wrong because of some input error. I could see getting that kind of length disparity on a high-low hub or a hub with different cross-patterns side to side like 3X DS and 2X NDS.

-- Jay Beattie.
i did a recalculation and I get 276 for DS and 280 Non DS. I am sure the calculations are correct this time. I went back through the hub remeasured all points. Without taking off the spokes and trying to measure the difference on the spokes now they are pretty close to 4mm difference. I wish I had a source to buy spokes as needed not in crazy lots of 50 or 100 and I just need standard DB steel spokes. I think Wheelsmith are fine but I don't even know if they are in business. I tried googling all the various places for spokes and what a crap shoot. I think this covid crap has everything on back order in the bike world. My normal source for wheelsets is all out. I wonder if Andrew is building wheels for customers like mad. I prefer to build my own wheels I just get weird on spoke calculations. You enter all the data an yet at times I think the final product might suggest a different length even if they worked fine. I am not sure how OCD one should be with spoke calcs. I don't build
enough wheels to know if you round up or down? What if you fall in between on an odd number go up or down?

Deacon Mark


We're building wheels at about the same rate as ever, not more.

Since wheelbuilding has become a rare arcane art (and a
complete mystery to most modern LBS) spoke distribution is
abysmal. This has been a trend for years and it's getting,
as you note, worse. Moreover with declining volume and
expanded selection (double inventory with normal spokes and
black tinted spokes, double again for aero shape, etc. Even
nipples come in useful and then black, aluminum, star shape,
on to ridiculous variety) prices here have become
unbelievable. Unbelievable in that I can't imagine paying
these rates, especially for orders received missing 25% of
the ordered lengths. A relatively boring commodity has
become a pricey scavenger hunt. We gave up and import spokes
directly, which is a lot of money tied up in inventory. The
alternate, with unreliable supply, is lost customers.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 4:56:20 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/16/2020 2:42 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 12:23:58 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 4:22:33 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:09:26 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:29:01 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 12:52:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Op dinsdag 15 september 2020 om 18:50:35 UTC+2 schreef :
These are tubeless compatible do they have traditional spoke access holes?
Deacon Mark
yes.

Well more questions. I used the DT Swiss spoke calculator and input the hubs dimensions that I measure myself to make certain. It is a basic Novotec f842sb hub. According the the calculations it says 282 for DS and 287 for NON DS. That seems to be more than usual of 2 mm difference. I am sure of my measuring does that seem reasonable to have 5mm difference?

Deacon Mark
IIRC, its around 281/282 3X NDS on a Shimano Ultegra hub with the DT460s. You're numbers are way off unless that Novatec is a high-low flange hub, and even if it were, it would have to have a really low NDS. Could you send us a link to the hub. Those numbers don't pull anything up.

-- Jay Beattie.
2 cross my rim my bad

Deacon mark
I don't know the hub but suspect the spoke calc is wrong because of some input error. I could see getting that kind of length disparity on a high-low hub or a hub with different cross-patterns side to side like 3X DS and 2X NDS.

-- Jay Beattie.
i did a recalculation and I get 276 for DS and 280 Non DS. I am sure the calculations are correct this time. I went back through the hub remeasured all points. Without taking off the spokes and trying to measure the difference on the spokes now they are pretty close to 4mm difference. I wish I had a source to buy spokes as needed not in crazy lots of 50 or 100 and I just need standard DB steel spokes. I think Wheelsmith are fine but I don't even know if they are in business. I tried googling all the various places for spokes and what a crap shoot. I think this covid crap has everything on back order in the bike world. My normal source for wheelsets is all out. I wonder if Andrew is building wheels for customers like mad. I prefer to build my own wheels I just get weird on spoke calculations. You enter all the data an yet at times I think the final product might suggest a different length even if they worked fine. I am not sure how OCD one should be with spoke calcs. I don't build
enough wheels to know if you round up or down? What if you fall in between on an odd number go up or down?

Deacon Mark

We're building wheels at about the same rate as ever, not more.

Since wheelbuilding has become a rare arcane art (and a
complete mystery to most modern LBS) spoke distribution is
abysmal. This has been a trend for years and it's getting,
as you note, worse. Moreover with declining volume and
expanded selection (double inventory with normal spokes and
black tinted spokes, double again for aero shape, etc. Even
nipples come in useful and then black, aluminum, star shape,
on to ridiculous variety) prices here have become
unbelievable. Unbelievable in that I can't imagine paying
these rates, especially for orders received missing 25% of
the ordered lengths. A relatively boring commodity has
become a pricey scavenger hunt. We gave up and import spokes
directly, which is a lot of money tied up in inventory. The
alternate, with unreliable supply, is lost customers.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/


Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Great post Andrew and just what I expected. The guys at the LBS around here I don't believe could build a wheel if they had to. The easy thing is tell the customer you need a new wheel and granted you can buy fairly cheap wheels that will run. My self I am an ordinary but high mileage rider. I am 59 so not going to win any races but on a long century I bet I can keep ups with most 1/2 my age unless they are serious.
This means I need a reliable wheel that works day in and day out. I don't want a boat anchor or some high profile aero wheel that is a one trick pony. I want a true, smooth rolling wheel that has at least 28 spokes in the rear 3 cross. I want to be able to service the wheel if things happen with ordinary parts. For me this is a DB spoke with brass nipples, good quality aluminum rim that can be trued to very close tolerances and is easy to maintain. I don't need tubeless tires, fancy spoke colors, nipples or hubs. In fact I just want the basic Shimano Hubs they are great because in general they are quiet. I had loud buzzing hubs no matter how good they claim to be.

All of this is probably just nuts because I must really be in the far out group. But let's face it nobody I see around here is riding in the TDF or a pro so to me............get with the picture and buy something useful that will work well and last. I another world I am jazz guitarist and let me tell you if you think cyclist are hard to figure out...........try guitarist. An I repair guitars too for a living sort of. I always say that if you can figure out how to repair guitars most everything else is easy.

Deacon Mark

On 9/16/2020 5:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:


Since wheelbuilding has become a rare arcane art (and a complete mystery
to most modern LBS) spoke distribution is abysmal. This has been a trend
for years and it's getting, as you note, worse.Â* Moreover with declining
volume and expanded selection (double inventory with normal spokes and
black tinted spokes, double again for aero shape, etc. Even nipples come
in useful and then black, aluminum, star shape, on to ridiculous
variety) prices here have become unbelievable. Unbelievable in that I
can't imagine paying these rates, especially for orders received missing
25% of the ordered lengths. A relatively boring commodity has become a
pricey scavenger hunt. We gave up and import spokes directly, which is a
lot of money tied up in inventory. The alternate, with unreliable
supply, is lost customers.

Does that mean we can buy spokes from you?


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/16/2020 6:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/16/2020 5:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:


Since wheelbuilding has become a rare arcane art (and a
complete mystery to most modern LBS) spoke distribution is
abysmal. This has been a trend for years and it's getting,
as you note, worse. Moreover with declining volume and
expanded selection (double inventory with normal spokes
and black tinted spokes, double again for aero shape, etc.
Even nipples come in useful and then black, aluminum, star
shape, on to ridiculous variety) prices here have become
unbelievable. Unbelievable in that I can't imagine paying
these rates, especially for orders received missing 25% of
the ordered lengths. A relatively boring commodity has
become a pricey scavenger hunt. We gave up and import
spokes directly, which is a lot of money tied up in
inventory. The alternate, with unreliable supply, is lost
customers.

Does that mean we can buy spokes from you?


Quoting the quotable Robert Hinz, "No less than one."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971