interview with an insider on doping

It is the second rest day of this year's TdF, Alberto Contador just
put
the hammer down and looks like a sure winner 7 days from now. After
establishing the contact years ago, we finally are able to interview
one
of the participants about doping and what it means to him, the sport
and
the fans./
*DF: We agreed on total anonymity, but we still want to indicate to
our
readers where in the realm of cycling this is coming from.*
BL: OK.
*DF: So would it be fair to say that while you are not one of the
contenders in any of the major tours, you've had some success as a
professional cyclist in a couple of teams over the years and people
following the sport would recognize your name?*
BL: That is fair, I guess (laughs).
*DF: We have been trying to get an interview with you for more than
two
years now, why did you agree to talk to us about this now?*
BL: Well, you have to realize that the pressure in the last years has
been especially high...
*DF: The pressure of getting caught?*
BL: Yes. But now a rhythm has been found, and it is more secure to
talk.
*DF: A rhythm?*
BL: In terms of dealing with the controls.
*DF: Please, elaborate.*
BL: Well, after 2006 the rules on where and when we could be tested
got
crazy in terms of what it meant for our lifestyles, and also in terms
of
planning the – you know, medical manipulations.
*DF: Sure.*
BL: ... because more than ever we had to factor the masking of it all
into the equation. But obviously it is more predictable now when one
will likely be tested, and there are secure masking techniques too.
And
even if they found something – it is all indirect, the detection
methods
I mean. They can say: this indicator is off and so is this, but they
can't say or even prove what is used, when it is being used and how.
*DF: But sometimes people do get caught...*
BL: Yeah, but recently? On what? They are concentrating on the rhEPO
and
the CERA, and it took them years to develop a test for it. I know it
is
cocky, but they are farther behind than they were three years ago, and
I
know I can pee in as many cups as they want and have them draw blood
on
a fairly regular basis – they might see the indicators move, but they
wouldn't be able to say why, they haven't the faintest idea. And even
if
they did, they still had to prove anything, and we made that next to
impossible.
*DF: You say "we". Are you talking about your team?*
BL: No, after Festina the thing shifted away from the teams. I am
talking about the physicians and the cyclists.
*DF: "The cyclists"?*
BL: Well, those who like to compete.
*DF: OK, so in this year's peloton of the TdF, do you know of others
who
are "medically manipulated".*
BL: Well nobody /knows/ about anyone, but it is safe to assume that
everyone here is manipulated.
*DF: Everyone? There have been people who we expected to compete like
Evans or Sastre who are not really doing that now.*
BL: But this is where you people are off: if someone climbs up to
Verbier like Contador did, he must be manipulating, but if they do
like
Menchov (/who lost 11 minutes on that stage on Contador, ed./), they
are
not? No. Look, I can only talk about what I am doing, but I would be
foolish to assume that what the medical people do for me they only do
for me and a few select others just I happen to know. The expertise
and
all, the medication – that only develops if a) they have to gain
massively and b) they had tons of experience. And the riders – think
about it. First of all you have to /make/ it to the tour, ok? The
team
is bigger than the 9 guys each team is allowed to bring, and usually,
unless you are happy with like, the 6-days or 3-days type of races or
you got a slacker contract, you want to be one of those 9 people. And
in
the tour you need to present yourself, because of course it is not
totally out of the realm that some idiot is careless and removes your
whole team from the equation, because the sponsors are wary and
easily
scared off, and you have to find a new contract. Look at that guy
from
that German team (/German equipe Gerolsteiners manager Michael
Holczer,
ed./) who was like all over the press all the time "My team is clean"
and whatnot. And then they get to his two top guys and poof the whole
thing explodes around him and the other riders, and the sponsor drops
out and the team is dead instantly.
*DF: So you are saying everyone who is riding this TdF is manipulating?
*
BL: I'd say if you don't assume that then you're massively naive.
*DF: Ok, so let's talk about how this works, medically. *
BL: Well I won't tell you what we use there; I want to keep riding a
few
years still.
*DF: Well not in terms then of what is used, but how and when, and
how
you factor in controls and, most importantly for you, I guess, the
desired results.*
BL: Hmm. (pause). Well I will tell you this: The desired results can
be
achieved much more easily than 5 years ago, because the stuff can
push
you for over 4 weeks, even two months now. So you can really mask
that
easily, you choose a time when you do the bulk of the medical stuff
in
which the rest of your training and your life situation would
possibly
explain if certain indicators were off.
*DF: Can you give us an example?*
BL: Say you do something that drives up your haemoglobin, then you do
that when it would be higher than usual anyway, because of high
altitude
training maybe, so you could explain it if need be. But that is not
the
extend of it, and I won't go into that.
*DF: The newer stuff.*
BL: Right.
*DF: So that is the long-term stuff, what about situations like
Landis'
thing in 2006 where he used testosterone to come back on that stage
right there, on the spot?*
BL: That is manageable too, but Landis was desperate and not thinking
clearly. He had lost eight minutes, and you can gain those back with
manipulation, as shown by Landis, but not without /obvious/
manipulation
– as shown by Landis. You can probably kind of make sure that you are
competitive even when you might not feel that good, you know what I
mean? Something that makes you just good enough not to lose too much
time. But the risk is obviously higher, and you got to do a
risk-vs.-reward thingie. I don't do that, because, well, let's face it
–
I would still not get anywhere close to what the best do on the steep
climbs. And I need to feed a family and I need a contract next year,
so
getting caught is not an option. And also, even though I block this
out
really and I suspect most of the other riders do to: It is dangerous
to
do too much. Nobody is going to die like that guy on the Ventoux (/
Tom
Simpson 1967, ed./), but long-term the risk is there. I guess other
people smoke and live with the fear of cancer; we do this and have
ours.
*DF: You say you are not competitive with the best even with doping?*
BL: Yeah. I could probably overdo it, but I don't do that, as I said.
It
is kind of funny: I believe the final results would be pretty much
the
same without the manipulation, and you still have good days and bad
days. But as long as one guy does it, all others will do it as well,
because otherwise that guy would have the ultimate advantage. But
what
we do is not just the manipulation, it is actually, if you look at
the
whole plan, not an overly big part. It is obviously important to
like,
have the body in terms of leverage and such, and to have a good
training
plan, the right nutrition, and to have the will to torture yourself.
Without all of that, you can still manipulate, but it won't get you
anywhere.
*DF: OK, let's get back to the organization of it all. You said it is
not the teams who organize it.*
BL: Well at least no longer in the established ones. If you're
hailing
from Kazakhstan the story is different maybe. Anyway: The teams need
to
maintain deniability, mainly for the sponsors.
*DF: There is no pressure from the sponsors?*
BL: Well not overtly. Obviously they want to see good results and
their
name represented properly, but those that are in it for a bit longer
already can lay a bit lower, they - no one says this, but it is kind
of
obvious – prioritize no one gets caught over a prestigious win. Those
with less of a history seem to not trust the whole thing anyway, in
terms of business sense, you know, so they prefer being represented
properly now rather than in say, three years – who knows what the
image
is then? But they do the "don't ask, don't tell" thing.
*DF: So what is the image now?*
BL: Well I guess some of the media know what's happening, in general
I
mean and they are frustrated they can't prove anything, so it got a
bit
unfriendly and focused on only the manipulations, especially with the
scapegoats like Astana or Valverde or Boonen. And they try to push
this
negative image.
But I know there are loads of people out there, fans, who love the
sport, and they don't care. Look at how many people still come to the
tour, that hasn't changed at all. They don't care, and actually they
don't want to care. They want the spectacle, they want to see those
guys
who race up the hill and also those who can't follow, they want the
soloists and the sprints, they want it all. And that only changes
sometimes when too much is reported or when too many people get
caught,
but not for long either. I mean I know that people actually climb up
the
famous ascends like the Tourmalet or Alpe d'Huez or the Ventoux on
their
bikes to feel what it's like, and they use stuff like EPO themselves,
just to feel that kick they imagine we must feel.(Pause) I still
write
plenty autographs, I am not worried, what I am saying is that from a
sponsors perspective that is maybe not quite so clear.
*DF: OK, so back to, sorry for this, but back to it not being the
teams
who drive this.*
BL: Well they don't need to, it is kind of like they used to, but
riders
understood how it all works better and better, and the more
industrious
among us probably make a nice buck off us now. Like, I have my
medical
personnel that I kind of got recommended by another rider I rode with
in
a team a few years back. And they coordinate the training plans, give
input and organize the medical side of it. Before, I took what I got
from the team, but it was simply not as tailored as it is now.
*DF: How many physicians play in this game?*
BL: (frowns) I don't know. First of all: I don't want to know. Then:
I
can't, you know, "say" this, but you think they only look after the
cyclists? So I presume, you know, most of them also do not want to
get
caught. Like, I have all my medical records. The doctor does not keep
any records, and, you know, the blood isn't labelled by your dog's
name
anymore.
*DF: But how is that possible – they have to get the medications from
somewhere, and that must be traceable?*
BL: This is the other thing riders don't want to know. I am well
aware
that if these people order massive amounts of stuff, there should be
a
track of records. But this means it probably goes through
backchannels
or worse, comes from sources I don't want to know of. I don't usually
take the newest of things, I let the more crazy guys do that, mostly
the
younger ones who still want it all, you know. After a season or so,
if
everyone stayed healthy, I will use stuff as well. But for the
doctors
it means they stay clean. The equipment can usually be hidden, I
mean:
who counts syringes, right? The more expensive stuff – well let's say
take a look at Austria. (/he presumably meant the fact that Bernhard
Kohl, the Austrian rider who got caught doping during the TdF last
year,
co-financed various expensive medical equipment with other athletes
and
his physician, ed./)
*DF: So if say your physician got raided, you'd stay undetected?*
BL: As long as he shuts up, sure, and he's got every reason to. There
is
nothing there that ties me to him. They would have to do DNA testing
to
match blood samples if they actually found any, and that won't get
out
of court for a few years to come, certainly till I am done riding. It
is
harder in some countries than in others.
*DF: Are you aware of the, excuse me, schizophrenic nature of what
you're saying? On one hand you are astonished about anyone not
believing
in manipulation and on the other hand you feel completely save?*
BL: How is that schizophrenic? Everyone knows the game that is
played.
There are those, with legal power, who for some reason want to ban it
(/doping, ed./) all, and for them we have to put on the hide and seek
and the legal armour and the secrecy, but it is just a game. But they
did have successes, and, maybe I am clouded because I am inside, but
I'd
think it's obvious for anyone what is going on. If amateurs do it
just
for kicks, why would you believe when there is actual stakes, money,
it's not happening? /That's/ probably schizophrenic.
*DF: So are you saying doping should be legal?*
BL: I don't know to be honest. There is medical risk and not everyone
who is young understands this or even gets a choice, look at what
happened in the East before 1989. It's not totally impossible in some
sport somewhere that crazy coaches or ruthless parents would not
damage
young athletes. On the other hand: That's probably happening today
just
the same. Legalization would make things easier by far: Lots of money
could be spent into training and developing younger talents rather
than
trying to figure out what happened when and how, which is mostly
useless. But it also would become even more of a money game – those
with
a generous sponsor could do more. I mean in general the sponsor who
provides better equipment and staff will give an advantage to their
team, but you need roughly the same amount of technicians and
masseurs,
and the difference between an expensive frame and a very expensive
frame
is not that big in terms of money, but the medication is really a
huge
amount. But... excuse me (/phone rings/)
/At this stage, the interview was over. After the phone conversation
the
rider had to leave us. We tried to get his authorization for
publishing
in the following days (because, in the words of the athlete, it is
"not
out of the realm of possibility" that someone manages to identify
him),
but then it became public that two Euskatel riders had tested
positive
as well Giro runner up Daniel di Luca, and we were back to square one
with him./

On Jan 4, 9:01*am, Vagina Gorilla wrote:
It is the second rest day of this year's TdF, Alberto Contador just
put
the hammer down and looks like a sure winner 7 days from now. After
establishing the contact years ago, we finally are able to interview
one
of the participants about doping and what it means to him, the sport
and
the fans./
*DF: We agreed on total anonymity, but we still want to indicate to
our
readers where in the realm of cycling this is coming from.*
BL: OK.
*DF: So would it be fair to say that while you are not one of the
contenders in any of the major tours, you've had some success as a
professional cyclist in a couple of teams over the years and people
following the sport would recognize your name?*
BL: That is fair, I guess (laughs).
*DF: We have been trying to get an interview with you for more than
two
years now, why did you agree to talk to us about this now?*
BL: Well, you have to realize that the pressure in the last years has
been especially high...
*DF: The pressure of getting caught?*
BL: Yes. But now a rhythm has been found, and it is more secure to
talk.
*DF: A rhythm?*
BL: In terms of dealing with the controls.
*DF: Please, elaborate.*
BL: Well, after 2006 the rules on where and when we could be tested
got
crazy in terms of what it meant for our lifestyles, and also in terms
of
planning the – you know, medical manipulations.
*DF: Sure.*
BL: ... because more than ever we had to factor the masking of it all
into the equation. But obviously it is more predictable now when one
will likely be tested, and there are secure masking techniques too.
And
even if they found something – it is all indirect, the detection
methods
I mean. They can say: this indicator is off and so is this, but they
can't say or even prove what is used, when it is being used and how.
*DF: But sometimes people do get caught...*
BL: Yeah, but recently? On what? They are concentrating on the rhEPO
and
the CERA, and it took them years to develop a test for it. I know it
is
cocky, but they are farther behind than they were three years ago, and
I
know I can pee in as many cups as they want and have them draw blood
on
a fairly regular basis – they might see the indicators move, but they
wouldn't be able to say why, they haven't the faintest idea. And even
if
they did, they still had to prove anything, and we made that next to
impossible.
*DF: You say "we". Are you talking about your team?*
BL: No, after Festina the thing shifted away from the teams. I am
talking about the physicians and the cyclists.
*DF: "The cyclists"?*
BL: Well, those who like to compete.
*DF: OK, so in this year's peloton of the TdF, do you know of others
who
are "medically manipulated".*
BL: Well nobody /knows/ about anyone, but it is safe to assume that
everyone here is manipulated.
*DF: Everyone? There have been people who we expected to compete like
Evans or Sastre who are not really doing that now.*
BL: But this is where you people are off: if someone climbs up to
Verbier like Contador did, he must be manipulating, but if they do
like
Menchov (/who lost 11 minutes on that stage on Contador, ed./), they
are
not? No. Look, I can only talk about what I am doing, but I would be
foolish to assume that what the medical people do for me they only do
for me and a few select others just I happen to know. The expertise
and
all, the medication – that only develops if a) they have to gain
massively and b) they had tons of experience. And the riders – think
about it. First of all you have to /make/ it to the tour, ok? The
team
is bigger than the 9 guys each team is allowed to bring, and usually,
unless you are happy with like, the 6-days or 3-days type of races or
you got a slacker contract, you want to be one of those 9 people. And
in
the tour you need to present yourself, because of course it is not
totally out of the realm that some idiot is careless and removes your
whole team from the equation, because the sponsors are wary and
easily
scared off, and you have to find a new contract. Look at that guy
from
that German team (/German equipe Gerolsteiners manager Michael
Holczer,
ed./) who was like all over the press all the time "My team is clean"
and whatnot. And then they get to his two top guys and poof the whole
thing explodes around him and the other riders, and the sponsor drops
out and the team is dead instantly.
*DF: So you are saying everyone who is riding this TdF is manipulating?
*
BL: I'd say if you don't assume that then you're massively naive.
*DF: Ok, so let's talk about how this works, medically. *
BL: Well I won't tell you what we use there; I want to keep riding a
few
years still.
*DF: Well not in terms then of what is used, but how and when, and
how
you factor in controls and, most importantly for you, I guess, the
desired results.*
BL: Hmm. (pause). Well I will tell you this: The desired results can
be
achieved much more easily than 5 years ago, because the stuff can
push
you for over 4 weeks, even two months now. So you can really mask
that
easily, you choose a time when you do the bulk of the medical stuff
in
which the rest of your training and your life situation would
possibly
explain if certain indicators were off.
*DF: Can you give us an example?*
BL: Say you do something that drives up your haemoglobin, then you do
that when it would be higher than usual anyway, because of high
altitude
training maybe, so you could explain it if need be. But that is not
the
extend of it, and I won't go into that.
*DF: The newer stuff.*
BL: Right.
*DF: So that is the long-term stuff, what about situations like
Landis'
thing in 2006 where he used testosterone to come back on that stage
right there, on the spot?*
BL: That is manageable too, but Landis was desperate and not thinking
clearly. He had lost eight minutes, and you can gain those back with
manipulation, as shown by Landis, but not without /obvious/
manipulation
– as shown by Landis. You can probably kind of make sure that you are
competitive even when you might not feel that good, you know what I
mean? Something that makes you just good enough not to lose too much
time. But the risk is obviously higher, and you got to do a
risk-vs.-reward thingie. I don't do that, because, well, let's face it
–
I would still not get anywhere close to what the best do on the steep
climbs. And I need to feed a family and I need a contract next year,
so
getting caught is not an option. And also, even though I block this
out
really and I suspect most of the other riders do to: It is dangerous
to
do too much. Nobody is going to die like that guy on the Ventoux (/
Tom
Simpson 1967, ed./), but long-term the risk is there. I guess other
people smoke and live with the fear of cancer; we do this and have
ours.
*DF: You say you are not competitive with the best even with doping?*
BL: Yeah. I could probably overdo it, but I don't do that, as I said.
It
is kind of funny: I believe the final results would be pretty much
the
same without the manipulation, and you still have good days and bad
days. But as long as one guy does it, all others will do it as well,
because otherwise that guy would have the ultimate advantage. But
what
we do is not just the manipulation, it is actually, if you look at
the
whole plan, not an overly big part. It is obviously important to
like,
have the body in terms of leverage and such, and to have a good
training
plan, the right nutrition, and to have the will to torture yourself.
Without all of that, you can still manipulate, but it won't get you
anywhere.
*DF: OK, let's get back to the organization of it all. You said it is
not the teams who organize it.*
BL: Well at least no longer in the established ones. If you're
hailing
from Kazakhstan the story is different maybe. Anyway: The teams need
to
maintain deniability, mainly for the sponsors.
*DF: There is no pressure from the sponsors?*
BL: Well not overtly. Obviously they want to see good results and
their
name represented properly, but those that are in it for a bit longer
already can lay a bit lower, they - no one says this, but it is kind
of
obvious – prioritize no one gets caught over a prestigious win. Those
with less of a history seem to not trust the whole thing anyway, in
terms of business sense, you know, so they prefer being represented
properly now rather than in say, three years – who knows what the
image
is then? But they do the "don't ask, don't tell" thing.
*DF: So what is the image now?*
BL: Well I guess some of the media know what's happening, in general
I
mean and they are frustrated they can't prove anything, so it got a
bit
unfriendly and focused on only the manipulations, especially with the
scapegoats like Astana or Valverde or Boonen. And they try to push
this
negative image.
But I know there are loads of people out there, fans, who love the
sport, and they don't care. Look at how many people still come to the
tour, that hasn't changed at all. They don't care, and actually they
don't want to care. They want the spectacle, they want to see those
guys
who race up the hill and also those who can't follow, they want the
soloists and the sprints, they want it all. And that only changes
sometimes when too much is reported or when too many people get
caught,
but not for long either. I mean I know that people actually climb up
the
famous ascends like the Tourmalet or Alpe d'Huez or the Ventoux on
their
bikes to feel what it's like, and they use stuff like EPO themselves,
just to feel that kick they imagine we must feel.(Pause) I still
write
plenty autographs, I am not worried, what I am saying is that from a
sponsors perspective that is maybe not quite so clear.
*DF: OK, so back to, sorry for this, but back to it not being the
teams
who drive this.*
BL: Well they don't need to, it is kind of like they used to, but
riders
understood how it all works better and better, and the more
industrious
among us probably make a nice buck off us now. Like, I have my
medical
personnel that I kind of got recommended by another rider I rode with
in
a team a few years back. And they coordinate the training plans, give
input and organize the medical side of it. Before, I took what I got
from the team, but it was simply not as tailored as it is now.
*DF: How many physicians play in this game?*
BL: (frowns) I don't know. First of all: I don't want to know. Then:
I
can't, you know, "say" this, but you think they only look after the
cyclists? So I presume, you know, most of them also do not want to
get
caught. Like, I have all my medical records. The doctor does not keep
any records, and, you know, the blood isn't labelled by your dog's
name
anymore.
*DF: But how is that possible – they have to get the medications from
somewhere, and that must be traceable?*
BL: This is the other thing riders don't want to know. I am well
aware
that if these people order massive amounts of stuff, there should be
a
track of records. But this means it probably goes through
backchannels
or worse, comes from sources I don't want to know of. I don't usually
take the newest of things, I let the more crazy guys do that, mostly
the
younger ones who still want it all, you know. After a season or so,
if
everyone stayed healthy, I will use stuff as well. But for the
doctors
it means they stay clean. The equipment can usually be hidden, I
mean:
who counts syringes, right? The more expensive stuff – well let's say
take a look at Austria. (/he presumably meant the fact that Bernhard
Kohl, the Austrian rider who got caught doping during the TdF last
year,
co-financed various expensive medical equipment with other athletes
and
his physician, ed./)
*DF: So if say your physician got raided, you'd stay undetected?*
BL: As long as he shuts up, sure, and he's got every reason to. There
is
nothing there that ties me to him. They would have to do DNA testing
to
match blood samples if they actually found any, and that won't get
out
of court for a few years to come, certainly till I am done riding. It
is
harder in some countries than in others.
*DF: Are you aware of the, excuse me, schizophrenic nature of what
you're saying? On one hand you are astonished about anyone not
believing
in manipulation and on the other hand you feel completely save?*
BL: How is that schizophrenic? Everyone knows the game that is
played.
There are those, with legal power, who for some reason want to ban it
(/doping, ed./) all, and for them we have to put on the hide and seek
and the legal armour and the secrecy, but it is just a game. But they
did have successes, and, maybe I am clouded because I am inside, but
I'd
think it's obvious for anyone what is going on. If amateurs do it
just
for kicks, why would you believe when there is actual stakes, money,
it's not happening? /That's/ probably schizophrenic.
*DF: So are you saying doping should be legal?*
BL: I don't know to be honest. There is medical risk and not everyone
who is young understands this or even gets a choice, look at what
happened in the East before 1989. It's not totally impossible in some
sport somewhere that crazy coaches or ruthless parents would not
damage
young athletes. On the other hand: That's probably happening today
just
the same. Legalization would make things easier by far: Lots of money
could be spent into training and developing younger talents rather
than
trying to figure out what happened when and how, which is mostly
useless. But it also would become even more of a money game – those
with
a generous sponsor could do more. I mean in general the sponsor who
provides better equipment and staff will give an advantage to their
team, but you need roughly the same amount of technicians and
masseurs,
and the difference between an expensive frame and a very expensive
frame
is not that big in terms of money, but the medication is really a
huge
amount. But... excuse me (/phone rings/)
/At this stage, the interview was over. After the phone conversation
the
rider had to leave us. We tried to get his authorization for
publishing
in the following days (because, in the words of the athlete, it is
"not
out of the realm of possibility" that someone manages to identify
him),
but then it became public that two Euskatel riders had tested
positive
as well Giro runner up Daniel di Luca, and we were back to square one
with him./



Dumbass -

Interesting interview.

thanks for sharing,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

On Jan 4, 2:42*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
wrote:
On Jan 4, 9:01*am, Vagina Gorilla wrote:


dumbass,

the formatting makes this almost impossible to read.

just post the link next time.

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
On Jan 4, 9:01 am, Vagina Gorilla wrote:
It is the second rest day of this year's TdF, [...]

Interesting interview.

"Dan F" posted it July 29th 2009:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...ff42be441cba19

At first you're thinking, you can't make stuff up like this.

But maybe you can-

==============
*DF: So that is the long-term stuff, what about situations like
Landis'
thing in 2006 where he used testosterone to come back on that stage
right there, on the spot?*
BL: That is manageable too, but Landis was desperate and not thinking
clearly. He had lost eight minutes, and you can gain those back with
manipulation, as shown by Landis, but not without /obvious/
manipulation
– as shown by Landis. You can probably kind of make sure that you are
competitive even when you might not feel that good, you know what I
mean? Something that makes you just good enough not to lose too much
time. But the risk is obviously higher, and you got to do a
risk-vs.-reward thingie. I don't do that, because, well, let's face it
==============

There is no evidence you can get back 8 minutes on a stage like that with
"manipulation" alone, especially when you're making the case that everbody
is manipulated to some degree. The field screwed up. Big time. Yes, Landis
was riding out of his mind, but please show me something that documents that
degree of enhancement over everyone else when everyone else is also presumed
not riding clean. Unless Landis was on something new that hasn't yet been
brought out (doubtful, given how long ago it was), even an amateur cyclist
isn't going to believe you could get that far ahead of everyone else by
doping. It spins a good story though. And then-

==============
I would still not get anywhere close to what the best do on the steep
climbs. And I need to feed a family and I need a contract next year,
so getting caught is not an option. And also, even though I block this
out really and I suspect most of the other riders do to: It is dangerous
to do too much. Nobody is going to die like that guy on the Ventoux (/
Tom Simpson 1967, ed./), but long-term the risk is there. I guess other
people smoke and live with the fear of cancer; we do this and have
ours.
==============

"...like that guy on the Ventoux"

Right, like any pro riding the TdF is going to refer to Tom Simpson that
way. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that any and all pro cyclists
riding the TdF know his name, just figuring out what rationale for not
saying it. Doesn't make sense. It's the sort of thing you'd put into a
fictional story to add credibility in a backward sort of way.

This interview could be real, or it could be a fabrication. There's nothing
in it that couldn't be created out of common banter in rbr.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA



"Vagina Gorilla" wrote in message
...
It is the second rest day of this year's TdF, Alberto Contador just
put
the hammer down and looks like a sure winner 7 days from now. After
establishing the contact years ago, we finally are able to interview
one
of the participants about doping and what it means to him, the sport
and
the fans./
*DF: We agreed on total anonymity, but we still want to indicate to
our
readers where in the realm of cycling this is coming from.*
BL: OK.
*DF: So would it be fair to say that while you are not one of the
contenders in any of the major tours, you've had some success as a
professional cyclist in a couple of teams over the years and people
following the sport would recognize your name?*
BL: That is fair, I guess (laughs).
*DF: We have been trying to get an interview with you for more than
two
years now, why did you agree to talk to us about this now?*
BL: Well, you have to realize that the pressure in the last years has
been especially high...
*DF: The pressure of getting caught?*
BL: Yes. But now a rhythm has been found, and it is more secure to
talk.
*DF: A rhythm?*
BL: In terms of dealing with the controls.
*DF: Please, elaborate.*
BL: Well, after 2006 the rules on where and when we could be tested
got
crazy in terms of what it meant for our lifestyles, and also in terms
of
planning the – you know, medical manipulations.
*DF: Sure.*
BL: ... because more than ever we had to factor the masking of it all
into the equation. But obviously it is more predictable now when one
will likely be tested, and there are secure masking techniques too.
And
even if they found something – it is all indirect, the detection
methods
I mean. They can say: this indicator is off and so is this, but they
can't say or even prove what is used, when it is being used and how.
*DF: But sometimes people do get caught...*
BL: Yeah, but recently? On what? They are concentrating on the rhEPO
and
the CERA, and it took them years to develop a test for it. I know it
is
cocky, but they are farther behind than they were three years ago, and
I
know I can pee in as many cups as they want and have them draw blood
on
a fairly regular basis – they might see the indicators move, but they
wouldn't be able to say why, they haven't the faintest idea. And even
if
they did, they still had to prove anything, and we made that next to
impossible.
*DF: You say "we". Are you talking about your team?*
BL: No, after Festina the thing shifted away from the teams. I am
talking about the physicians and the cyclists.
*DF: "The cyclists"?*
BL: Well, those who like to compete.
*DF: OK, so in this year's peloton of the TdF, do you know of others
who
are "medically manipulated".*
BL: Well nobody /knows/ about anyone, but it is safe to assume that
everyone here is manipulated.
*DF: Everyone? There have been people who we expected to compete like
Evans or Sastre who are not really doing that now.*
BL: But this is where you people are off: if someone climbs up to
Verbier like Contador did, he must be manipulating, but if they do
like
Menchov (/who lost 11 minutes on that stage on Contador, ed./), they
are
not? No. Look, I can only talk about what I am doing, but I would be
foolish to assume that what the medical people do for me they only do
for me and a few select others just I happen to know. The expertise
and
all, the medication – that only develops if a) they have to gain
massively and b) they had tons of experience. And the riders – think
about it. First of all you have to /make/ it to the tour, ok? The
team
is bigger than the 9 guys each team is allowed to bring, and usually,
unless you are happy with like, the 6-days or 3-days type of races or
you got a slacker contract, you want to be one of those 9 people. And
in
the tour you need to present yourself, because of course it is not
totally out of the realm that some idiot is careless and removes your
whole team from the equation, because the sponsors are wary and
easily
scared off, and you have to find a new contract. Look at that guy
from
that German team (/German equipe Gerolsteiners manager Michael
Holczer,
ed./) who was like all over the press all the time "My team is clean"
and whatnot. And then they get to his two top guys and poof the whole
thing explodes around him and the other riders, and the sponsor drops
out and the team is dead instantly.
*DF: So you are saying everyone who is riding this TdF is manipulating?
*
BL: I'd say if you don't assume that then you're massively naive.
*DF: Ok, so let's talk about how this works, medically. *
BL: Well I won't tell you what we use there; I want to keep riding a
few
years still.
*DF: Well not in terms then of what is used, but how and when, and
how
you factor in controls and, most importantly for you, I guess, the
desired results.*
BL: Hmm. (pause). Well I will tell you this: The desired results can
be
achieved much more easily than 5 years ago, because the stuff can
push
you for over 4 weeks, even two months now. So you can really mask
that
easily, you choose a time when you do the bulk of the medical stuff
in
which the rest of your training and your life situation would
possibly
explain if certain indicators were off.
*DF: Can you give us an example?*
BL: Say you do something that drives up your haemoglobin, then you do
that when it would be higher than usual anyway, because of high
altitude
training maybe, so you could explain it if need be. But that is not
the
extend of it, and I won't go into that.
*DF: The newer stuff.*
BL: Right.
*DF: So that is the long-term stuff, what about situations like
Landis'
thing in 2006 where he used testosterone to come back on that stage
right there, on the spot?*
BL: That is manageable too, but Landis was desperate and not thinking
clearly. He had lost eight minutes, and you can gain those back with
manipulation, as shown by Landis, but not without /obvious/
manipulation
– as shown by Landis. You can probably kind of make sure that you are
competitive even when you might not feel that good, you know what I
mean? Something that makes you just good enough not to lose too much
time. But the risk is obviously higher, and you got to do a
risk-vs.-reward thingie. I don't do that, because, well, let's face it
–
I would still not get anywhere close to what the best do on the steep
climbs. And I need to feed a family and I need a contract next year,
so
getting caught is not an option. And also, even though I block this
out
really and I suspect most of the other riders do to: It is dangerous
to
do too much. Nobody is going to die like that guy on the Ventoux (/
Tom
Simpson 1967, ed./), but long-term the risk is there. I guess other
people smoke and live with the fear of cancer; we do this and have
ours.
*DF: You say you are not competitive with the best even with doping?*
BL: Yeah. I could probably overdo it, but I don't do that, as I said.
It
is kind of funny: I believe the final results would be pretty much
the
same without the manipulation, and you still have good days and bad
days. But as long as one guy does it, all others will do it as well,
because otherwise that guy would have the ultimate advantage. But
what
we do is not just the manipulation, it is actually, if you look at
the
whole plan, not an overly big part. It is obviously important to
like,
have the body in terms of leverage and such, and to have a good
training
plan, the right nutrition, and to have the will to torture yourself.
Without all of that, you can still manipulate, but it won't get you
anywhere.
*DF: OK, let's get back to the organization of it all. You said it is
not the teams who organize it.*
BL: Well at least no longer in the established ones. If you're
hailing
from Kazakhstan the story is different maybe. Anyway: The teams need
to
maintain deniability, mainly for the sponsors.
*DF: There is no pressure from the sponsors?*
BL: Well not overtly. Obviously they want to see good results and
their
name represented properly, but those that are in it for a bit longer
already can lay a bit lower, they - no one says this, but it is kind
of
obvious – prioritize no one gets caught over a prestigious win. Those
with less of a history seem to not trust the whole thing anyway, in
terms of business sense, you know, so they prefer being represented
properly now rather than in say, three years – who knows what the
image
is then? But they do the "don't ask, don't tell" thing.
*DF: So what is the image now?*
BL: Well I guess some of the media know what's happening, in general
I
mean and they are frustrated they can't prove anything, so it got a
bit
unfriendly and focused on only the manipulations, especially with the
scapegoats like Astana or Valverde or Boonen. And they try to push
this
negative image.
But I know there are loads of people out there, fans, who love the
sport, and they don't care. Look at how many people still come to the
tour, that hasn't changed at all. They don't care, and actually they
don't want to care. They want the spectacle, they want to see those
guys
who race up the hill and also those who can't follow, they want the
soloists and the sprints, they want it all. And that only changes
sometimes when too much is reported or when too many people get
caught,
but not for long either. I mean I know that people actually climb up
the
famous ascends like the Tourmalet or Alpe d'Huez or the Ventoux on
their
bikes to feel what it's like, and they use stuff like EPO themselves,
just to feel that kick they imagine we must feel.(Pause) I still
write
plenty autographs, I am not worried, what I am saying is that from a
sponsors perspective that is maybe not quite so clear.
*DF: OK, so back to, sorry for this, but back to it not being the
teams
who drive this.*
BL: Well they don't need to, it is kind of like they used to, but
riders
understood how it all works better and better, and the more
industrious
among us probably make a nice buck off us now. Like, I have my
medical
personnel that I kind of got recommended by another rider I rode with
in
a team a few years back. And they coordinate the training plans, give
input and organize the medical side of it. Before, I took what I got
from the team, but it was simply not as tailored as it is now.
*DF: How many physicians play in this game?*
BL: (frowns) I don't know. First of all: I don't want to know. Then:
I
can't, you know, "say" this, but you think they only look after the
cyclists? So I presume, you know, most of them also do not want to
get
caught. Like, I have all my medical records. The doctor does not keep
any records, and, you know, the blood isn't labelled by your dog's
name
anymore.
*DF: But how is that possible – they have to get the medications from
somewhere, and that must be traceable?*
BL: This is the other thing riders don't want to know. I am well
aware
that if these people order massive amounts of stuff, there should be
a
track of records. But this means it probably goes through
backchannels
or worse, comes from sources I don't want to know of. I don't usually
take the newest of things, I let the more crazy guys do that, mostly
the
younger ones who still want it all, you know. After a season or so,
if
everyone stayed healthy, I will use stuff as well. But for the
doctors
it means they stay clean. The equipment can usually be hidden, I
mean:
who counts syringes, right? The more expensive stuff – well let's say
take a look at Austria. (/he presumably meant the fact that Bernhard
Kohl, the Austrian rider who got caught doping during the TdF last
year,
co-financed various expensive medical equipment with other athletes
and
his physician, ed./)
*DF: So if say your physician got raided, you'd stay undetected?*
BL: As long as he shuts up, sure, and he's got every reason to. There
is
nothing there that ties me to him. They would have to do DNA testing
to
match blood samples if they actually found any, and that won't get
out
of court for a few years to come, certainly till I am done riding. It
is
harder in some countries than in others.
*DF: Are you aware of the, excuse me, schizophrenic nature of what
you're saying? On one hand you are astonished about anyone not
believing
in manipulation and on the other hand you feel completely save?*
BL: How is that schizophrenic? Everyone knows the game that is
played.
There are those, with legal power, who for some reason want to ban it
(/doping, ed./) all, and for them we have to put on the hide and seek
and the legal armour and the secrecy, but it is just a game. But they
did have successes, and, maybe I am clouded because I am inside, but
I'd
think it's obvious for anyone what is going on. If amateurs do it
just
for kicks, why would you believe when there is actual stakes, money,
it's not happening? /That's/ probably schizophrenic.
*DF: So are you saying doping should be legal?*
BL: I don't know to be honest. There is medical risk and not everyone
who is young understands this or even gets a choice, look at what
happened in the East before 1989. It's not totally impossible in some
sport somewhere that crazy coaches or ruthless parents would not
damage
young athletes. On the other hand: That's probably happening today
just
the same. Legalization would make things easier by far: Lots of money
could be spent into training and developing younger talents rather
than
trying to figure out what happened when and how, which is mostly
useless. But it also would become even more of a money game – those
with
a generous sponsor could do more. I mean in general the sponsor who
provides better equipment and staff will give an advantage to their
team, but you need roughly the same amount of technicians and
masseurs,
and the difference between an expensive frame and a very expensive
frame
is not that big in terms of money, but the medication is really a
huge
amount. But... excuse me (/phone rings/)
/At this stage, the interview was over. After the phone conversation
the
rider had to leave us. We tried to get his authorization for
publishing
in the following days (because, in the words of the athlete, it is
"not
out of the realm of possibility" that someone manages to identify
him),
but then it became public that two Euskatel riders had tested
positive
as well Giro runner up Daniel di Luca, and we were back to square one
with him./

MJ - You haven't been around any kids?

That guy that died on Ventoux = the guy that sang in the Beatles and
that president guy that got shot in Dallas.

Kids are that ****ing stupid today.

"Anton Berlin" wrote in message
...
MJ - You haven't been around any kids?

That guy that died on Ventoux = the guy that sang in the Beatles and
that president guy that got shot in Dallas.

Kids are that ****ing stupid today.

This is someone who, according to the story (er, I mean, interview), has
been around for a while. Should be pretty well schooled in what went down.
When the TdF climbs Ventoux, pictures and stories about Tom Simpson are
*everywhere.*

I agree that kids are that stupid. But not everyone is a "kid" and anyone
aware of the dangers of doping (as the person in the story, er, interview,
claimed to be) would likely be aware of the single most-famous incident of a
cyclist dying from an the effects of doping.

I'm open to arguments otherwise. Persuade me. And try to convince me that
someone really believes a testosterone patch alone, worn too long, was worth
8 minutes.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

It's not - but out of sight - out of mind can be worth 8 minutes or
even 30

And even the best racers have their '**** it' days when they just
don't want to pedal any harder.

"Anton Berlin" wrote in message
...
It's not - but out of sight - out of mind can be worth 8 minutes or
even 30

And even the best racers have their '**** it' days when they just
don't want to pedal any harder.

Exactly. Which is why it's ludicrous and misguided for the person
interviewed to say it's due to doping. If that's what he believes, he's lost
the race before starting gun. Which, of course, he has... supposedly this
guy is an also-ran (or, as Martin Mull would have said, his band was known
as "plus opening act.")

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

So Mike - let me get this straight.

Your usual defense is "lance is clean" and the fact that one sullied
racer got caught doesn't spoil the whole peloton

But if a guy makes one mis-step in logic - any other knowledge he
offers up is all baseless? Sky isn't blue because you don't know who
Tom Simpson is and 8 minute abs just don't work?

Thus you are concluding that clean lance can only win in a clean
peloton.

Which we all know just isn't true.

Then you must then find the following true - only dirty lance can win
in a dirty peloton and on a dirty sport.

That's the conclusion that most reasonable people have come to. What
stops you?