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electric bikes on centuries



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 29th 07, 10:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc
Curtis L. Russell
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Posts: 993
Default electric bikes on centuries

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:48:42 GMT, Kristian M Zoerhoff
wrote:

IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has
interesting implications for manufacturers of such.


It may, depending on how the rest of the laws are written, and it will
vary by state. They will probably benefit from the lobbying efforts of
the Segway to open up where electric powered vehicles may be used. It
really doesn't make any difference what it is called - the issue is
where it is allowed to be used. There are plenty of electric powered
vehicles that will drive wedges into areas not currently permitted:
Segways, golf carts (used in many golf course communities) and
electric carts for handicapped (definitely a wedge on multi-use
paths).

I doubt that there will be significant legal limitations on
electric-powered bicycles/pedalcycles/whatevers and fewer in real
life. Look what a pain (briefly) the gas powered skate boards were, I
saw no attempt to limit their use, even where illegal.

The real problem for regular cyclists IMO will be if they are as
silent as the Prius is compared to other powered vehicles. A Prius
working only under electrical power can surprise people in a parking
lot. So would an electrical vehicle on a MUP.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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  #22  
Old January 29th 07, 10:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc, rec.bicycles.soc
Kristian M Zoerhoff
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Posts: 472
Default electric bikes on centuries

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.misc.]
On 2007-01-29, Curtis L Russell wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:48:42 GMT, Kristian M Zoerhoff
wrote:

IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has
interesting implications for manufacturers of such.


It may, depending on how the rest of the laws are written, and it will
vary by state. They will probably benefit from the lobbying efforts of
the Segway to open up where electric powered vehicles may be used. It
really doesn't make any difference what it is called - the issue is
where it is allowed to be used. There are plenty of electric powered
vehicles that will drive wedges into areas not currently permitted:
Segways, golf carts (used in many golf course communities) and
electric carts for handicapped (definitely a wedge on multi-use
paths).


Actually, all of the above are covered in IL, much to my surpirse.

Segways are considered scooters, and restricted to sidewalks.
Golf Carts are banned, unless specifically allowed by a municipality
within its limits.
Handicapped carts are specifically allowed on sidewalks, but limited to
8 mph top speed. MUPs are considered sidewalks for this purpose.

I doubt that there will be significant legal limitations on
electric-powered bicycles/pedalcycles/whatevers and fewer in real
life.


Well, technically, there aren't many now; they're mopeds, and mopeds are
allowed on public roads. Mopeds do require a driver's license, though
(IL has a special class L license for folks who can't/won't get a
standard DL).

Look what a pain (briefly) the gas powered skate boards were, I
saw no attempt to limit their use, even where illegal.


You don't live around Chicago. Cook County banned them outright, and
there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth over them from TPTB.
They had a pretty short half-life.

The real problem for regular cyclists IMO will be if they are as
silent as the Prius is compared to other powered vehicles. A Prius
working only under electrical power can surprise people in a parking
lot. So would an electrical vehicle on a MUP.


That's a problem [1], and it does uncover one restriction on electric
bikes under current state law he "motorized" vehicles are banned
from the major MUPs in this area. However, given their stealth nature,
most elctric cyclists could probably get by, as long as they don't go
tearing along at 20 mph.


[1] One can say the same for a bicycle, of course. That's why I have a
bell on mine.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_
(_)/ (_)
  #23  
Old January 29th 07, 11:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc
Roger Zoul
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Posts: 1,118
Default electric bikes on centuries

Curtis L. Russell wrote:
:: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:09:09 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
:: wrote:
::
::: This would yeild an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle. Bring on
::: the mopeds!
::
:: Well, two on-line dictionaries only differentiate based on the size
:: of the motor - both say a bicycle can have a small motor, so its
:: going to depend on the size (both also say a motorcycle has a
:: 'powerful' motor, so it looks almost as if one stole from the
:: other...). Get back to me in 2015 and we'll see who owes who the
:: beer. 30 mph and under that can be carried up a flight of stairs and
:: you buy; failing either of the above and I will.

Deal!

I think the distintion, according to on-line dictionaries, is ill-defined,
IMO. However, if you ask most people, and because we have mopeds, the main
difference is that you pedal a bike. Riding a bicycle is strongly associated
with exercising, not so much so with any motorized two-wheel vehicle.


  #24  
Old January 30th 07, 12:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc
Diablo Scott
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Posts: 90
Default electric bikes on centuries

Roger Zoul wrote:
Perhaps. We'll see. My guess is it won't happen. What kind of electric
bike do you envision that will ever do a century that will actually make
them not stand out? How big of a battery and motor are we talking here to
push someone 100 miles over possibly hilly (around here) terrain? Zipping
along at 30 mph alone would make anyone stand out.

I grant you this. If you can get an electric bike that does this while not
making the rider stand out significantly, then people would very likely do
so.


The bike in the referenced article is a recumbent - I suspect recumbent
riders may be both more likely to buy such a machine, and less concerned
with what other riders think about it.

And I suspect if they ever do show up at centuries that the riders will
be real cyclists who can no longer ride a conventional bike for such a
distance due to age or health. I'd rather see someone like that on a
powered bicycle than someone who hasn't first learned cycling common
sense, etiquette, and traffic awareness from a real bike.
  #25  
Old January 30th 07, 01:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc
Werehatrack
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Posts: 1,416
Default electric bikes on centuries

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:41:24 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
may have said:

What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that
matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a
non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue...


AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in
sanctioned bicycle events, period. I see no reason to change this.
If they want to tag along on a ride that's on an open road, as a
non-recognized follower without membership in the group, I doubt that
you'll be able to exclude them. On closed-course events, of course,
they'd be trespassing unless granted special credentials, such as
might be done if a member of the press wanted to use an
electric-assist bike to follow and report on the participants instead
of using a motorcycle or automobile. I see no reason to permit them
to share in any recognition granted to the unassisted riders, however.


--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
  #26  
Old January 30th 07, 04:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc
Bill Baka
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Posts: 1,083
Default electric bikes on centuries

Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
On 2007-01-29, Curtis L Russell wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:09:09 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
wrote:

This would yeild an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle. Bring on the
mopeds!

Well, two on-line dictionaries only differentiate based on the size of
the motor - both say a bicycle can have a small motor, so its going to
depend on the size (both also say a motorcycle has a 'powerful' motor,
so it looks almost as if one stole from the other...).


The dictionaries might, but state laws are where this will get interesting
(at least, for us in the USA). For example, IL considers anything with a
motor to be a moped:

(625 ILCS 5/1106) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 1106)
Sec. 1106. Bicycle. Every device propelled by human power upon which
any person may ride, having two tandem wheels except
scooters and similar devices.
(Source: P.A. 85951.)

(625 ILCS 5/1148.2) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 1148.2)
Sec. 1148.2. Motorized Pedalcycle. A motorized pedalcycle is a
motordriven cycle whose speed attainable in one mile is
30 mph or less, which is equipped with a motor that produces
2 brake horsepower or less. If an internal combustion engine
is used, the displacement shall not exceed 50 cubic
centimeter displacement and the power drive system shall not
require the operator to shift gears.
(Source: P.A. 83820.)

IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has
interesting implications for manufacturers of such.

Illinois laws tend to be weird. I was born there and moved to
California, and the laws are like 2 different countries. Also above they
forgot to mention the little old ladies pedal powered tricycle with the
grocery basket in the back. Those used to be fairly common back in the
50's and 60's when I lived there. Women in their 80's could use them
with no problems with balance, nor stamina for short grocery runs.
This type of bike is not mentioned at all in the above quotes.
California also has the 50cc law so that may be a national standard, or not?
Bill Baka
  #27  
Old January 30th 07, 04:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc
Bill Baka
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Posts: 1,083
Default electric bikes on centuries

Curtis L. Russell wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:48:42 GMT, Kristian M Zoerhoff
wrote:

IOW, there is no such thing as an "electric bicycle" in Illinois. This has
interesting implications for manufacturers of such.


It may, depending on how the rest of the laws are written, and it will
vary by state. They will probably benefit from the lobbying efforts of
the Segway to open up where electric powered vehicles may be used. It
really doesn't make any difference what it is called - the issue is
where it is allowed to be used. There are plenty of electric powered
vehicles that will drive wedges into areas not currently permitted:
Segways, golf carts (used in many golf course communities) and
electric carts for handicapped (definitely a wedge on multi-use
paths).

I doubt that there will be significant legal limitations on
electric-powered bicycles/pedalcycles/whatevers and fewer in real
life. Look what a pain (briefly) the gas powered skate boards were, I
saw no attempt to limit their use, even where illegal.


What do you mean "Were?"? I have almost been in 2 crashes due to these
idiot kids in my neighborhood in California. The police just ignore
them, maybe waiting for them to pull a Darwin. I just don't want to be
the one they do it with.
Bill Baka

The real problem for regular cyclists IMO will be if they are as
silent as the Prius is compared to other powered vehicles. A Prius
working only under electrical power can surprise people in a parking
lot. So would an electrical vehicle on a MUP.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

  #28  
Old January 30th 07, 02:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc
Curtis L. Russell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 993
Default electric bikes on centuries

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:16:04 -0600, Werehatrack
wrote:


AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in
sanctioned bicycle events, period.


Sanctioned? By who? LAB isn't sanctioning any centuries in the sense
of setting rules (or taking responsibility). USCF/USAC wouldn't permit
power assist of course, but they don't have many clubs applying for
permits for 100 mile TTs - most such TTs are 40 kilo or so.

I'm guessing any fund raiser would take anyone with an entry fee and
just disregard them for any distance based prizes. I doubt that too
many of the LAB clubs I've done events with would turn them away -
they would probably just tell them to ride responsibly. Of course,
since there are few closed course centuries, your choice is to accept
them or have them along unofficially. You can keep them out of your
feed areas, but you can't keep them off the course.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
  #29  
Old January 30th 07, 03:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc
Roger Zoul
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Posts: 1,118
Default electric bikes on centuries

Diablo Scott wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: Perhaps. We'll see. My guess is it won't happen. What kind of
::: electric bike do you envision that will ever do a century that will
::: actually make them not stand out? How big of a battery and motor
::: are we talking here to push someone 100 miles over possibly hilly
::: (around here) terrain? Zipping along at 30 mph alone would make
::: anyone stand out.
:::
::: I grant you this. If you can get an electric bike that does this
::: while not making the rider stand out significantly, then people
::: would very likely do so.
::
:: The bike in the referenced article is a recumbent - I suspect
:: recumbent riders may be both more likely to buy such a machine, and
:: less concerned with what other riders think about it.

On BROL several folks are interested in the 'assist' feature for commuting
and some for touring. Riding long hills and in heavy winds, the assist
feature is indeed useful. What if you're doing the equivalent of a double
century on a tour? The assist could get your butt out of a potential
situation! However, using the assist feature for a typical century is
another matter, IMO. To me, doing a century is about doing a century, but I
guess others can have different notions (group experience, etc.) Also, the
generally larger frame of a LWB 'bent would likely work better for an
assist.

::
:: And I suspect if they ever do show up at centuries that the riders
:: will be real cyclists who can no longer ride a conventional bike for
:: such a distance due to age or health. I'd rather see someone like
:: that on a powered bicycle than someone who hasn't first learned
:: cycling common sense, etiquette, and traffic awareness from a real
:: bike.

Me too. Actually, I have no problem with anyone riding anything in an
ogranized century, provided it doesn't create a hazard of some type. I was
just discussing this from an academic POV


  #30  
Old January 30th 07, 04:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc
Roger Zoul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,118
Default electric bikes on centuries

Curtis L. Russell wrote:
:: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:16:04 -0600, Werehatrack
:: wrote:
::
:::
::: AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in
::: sanctioned bicycle events, period.
::
:: Sanctioned? By who? LAB isn't sanctioning any centuries in the sense
:: of setting rules (or taking responsibility). USCF/USAC wouldn't
:: permit power assist of course, but they don't have many clubs
:: applying for permits for 100 mile TTs - most such TTs are 40 kilo
:: or so.
::
:: I'm guessing any fund raiser would take anyone with an entry fee and
:: just disregard them for any distance based prizes. I doubt that too
:: many of the LAB clubs I've done events with would turn them away -
:: they would probably just tell them to ride responsibly. Of course,
:: since there are few closed course centuries, your choice is to accept
:: them or have them along unofficially. You can keep them out of your
:: feed areas, but you can't keep them off the course.
::

I think if they showed up on a fund raiser you'd have to accept them with
the same rules as any rider.


 




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