Fore/aft position on saddle when climbing.

I don't really know what to make of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6QvK...ilpage#t=93 s

My concerns over crank length (too long) are possibly partly addressed
with this varying technique. As I have said in the crank length
thread, my saddle position is currently restricted due to the crank
length, but it appears that my physiological limitations may not be so
restricted as I thought.

So let's get this straight, it's move forward to bias output from the
quad's and backward to bias output from the hamstrings. So with high
power levels I want to bring myself forward on the saddle to avoid
overuse of the hamstrings. Yep, this sounds like normal practice, but
it unbalances the pedal stroke. That can't really be helped with high
outputs though, can it?

thirty-six wrote:

So let's get this straight, it's move forward to bias output from the
quad's and backward to bias output from the hamstrings.

My understanding is the opposite, assuming "to bias" means "to favor" as
you're using it here.

Cyclists tend to have better quad strength and runners tend to have
better hamstring strength. The more forward position of a triathlete
takes advantage of the addition hamstring strength developed through
running.

-S-

On Aug 10, 8:45*pm, "Steve Freides" wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
So let's get this straight, it's move forward to bias output from the
quad's and backward to bias output from the hamstrings.

My understanding is the opposite, assuming "to bias" means "to favor" as
you're using it here.

What about the video clip?

Cyclists tend to have better quad strength and runners tend to have
better hamstring strength. *The more forward position of a triathlete
takes advantage of the addition hamstring strength developed through
running.

I had both as a cyclist, but had not developed the co-ordination so my
maximum cadence at peak power was around 118rpm on the flat. Starting
with relatively weak muscles, I trained easily. After six weeks my
maximum speed was in excess of the prior level of 38mph by a
considerable amount (est 44mph by gear choice). There had been no
muscle mass development. It seems that peak muscle strength is
irrellevant in cycling (ignoring track sprinting) and that a balanced
pedal torque is key to economy of movement, acceleration and high
speeds.

thirty-six wrote:
On Aug 10, 8:45 pm, "Steve Freides" wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
So let's get this straight, it's move forward to bias output from
the quad's and backward to bias output from the hamstrings.

My understanding is the opposite, assuming "to bias" means "to
favor" as you're using it here.

What about the video clip?

I couldn't tell you. Maybe there's a difference between how you fit on
a bike and what you do in terms of favoring one muscle group or another
while you ride. The explanation I gave you was given to me by a bicycle
frame maker.

-S-

On Aug 11, 7:52*pm, "Steve Freides" wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
On Aug 10, 8:45 pm, "Steve Freides" wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
So let's get this straight, it's move forward to bias output from
the quad's and backward to bias output from the hamstrings.

My understanding is the opposite, assuming "to bias" means "to
favor" as you're using it here.

What about the video clip?

I couldn't tell you. *Maybe there's a difference between how you fit on
a bike and what you do in terms of favoring one muscle group or another
while you ride. *The explanation I gave you was given to me by a bicycle
frame maker.

-S-

I'm not sure it is clear cut. I believe the detail is in training but
I was looking for personal experience of the described technique and
relevant comments.

On Aug 10, 12:45*pm, "Steve Freides" wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
So let's get this straight, it's move forward to bias output from the
quad's and backward to bias output from the hamstrings.

My understanding is the opposite, assuming "to bias" means "to favor" as
you're using it here.

Cyclists tend to have better quad strength and runners tend to have
better hamstring strength. *The more forward position of a triathlete
takes advantage of the addition hamstring strength developed through
running.

Muscle strength typically is not the limiting factor
in what you can do on a bike; it's fatigue. I don't know if
that changes this particular piece of lore. I usually read
the lore the other way around - triathletes are claimed
to use a more forward position to save their hamstrings
for the run.

I don't know if that's true, as I will run (ugh) but am not a
triathlete - my ancestors evolved to walk on solid ground
and I wish to respect their traditions. Water is evil and
may kill you.

Fredmaster Ben

Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
I usually read the lore the other way around - triathletes are claimed
to use a more forward position to save their hamstrings
for the run.

Ask Ryan, I'm sure he's acquainted with triathlete physiology after
dissecting a few of them.

thirty-six a écrit profondement:

| I don't really know what to make of this.

| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6QvK...ilpage#t=93 s

| My concerns over crank length (too long) are possibly partly addressed
| with this varying technique. As I have said in the crank length
| thread, my saddle position is currently restricted due to the crank
| length, but it appears that my physiological limitations may not be so
| restricted as I thought.

| So let's get this straight, it's move forward to bias output from the
| quad's and backward to bias output from the hamstrings. So with high
| power levels I want to bring myself forward on the saddle to avoid
| overuse of the hamstrings. Yep, this sounds like normal practice, but
| it unbalances the pedal stroke. That can't really be helped with high
| outputs though, can it?


Rule of thumb:

Saddle as far back as the rails/clamping-mechanism will permit.

Not that Davey's a very technically oriented rider, but that old saw
always seemed to work for him. ("Saw" as in "saying").

Some points to watch which also might affect saddle positioning:
(a) Length (distance) of Ride or Race to be ridden.
Shorter a bit more forward, longer a bit more back.
(b) Are we Club Riding, Training or Racing road/track.
(c) Seat tube angle - Smaller sets you back and VV.
(d) Ratio of femur:tibia bones.
(e) "Q" (Bottom Bracket Axle length)
(f) Crank length - Davey saw a pretty techie article one time that
concluded - within reason - that this didn't make a measurable
difference to power output although at the extremes this will
naturally limit the extent of forward/rearward saddle positioning.
(g) Handlebar "Reach" (from"tops" to "drops").
(h) Stem/Extension length.
(i) Comfort level required
(j) Overall "bike fit" - hopefully you have a reasonable fit but
otherwise you're going to have to compensate for deleterious effects
of a mismatched top tube by juggling stem/extension length and
saddle position.

Hoping you can find your optimum position.

Regards,

Davey

--
Will someone please tell M'Bongo ::
The notion that governments derive their only just authority from
the consent of the governed is a foundational principle of the
American experiment.

On 8/11/2011 2:50 PM, Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:


I don't know if that's true, as I will run (ugh) but am not a
triathlete - my ancestors evolved to walk on solid ground
and I wish to respect their traditions. Water is evil and
may kill you.


Hmmmmm you might be onto something here. Imagine the improved TV ratings
if televised triathalons had the swim leg last ?!?!?!?

That'd be entertainment.


Bill



--

William R. Mattil

http://www.celestial-images.com

On 8/12/2011 4:49 AM, William R. Mattil wrote:
On 8/11/2011 2:50 PM, Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:


I don't know if that's true, as I will run (ugh) but am not a
triathlete - my ancestors evolved to walk on solid ground
and I wish to respect their traditions. Water is evil and
may kill you.


Hmmmmm you might be onto something here. Imagine the improved TV ratings
if televised triathalons had the swim leg last ?!?!?!?

That'd be entertainment.

"DNF" means "Did Not Float".

Mark J.