A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

The lone 26er in a forest full of 29ers and 27.5ers



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old March 1st 18, 08:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 284
Default The lone 26er in a forest full of 29ers and 27.5ers

On Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 1:54:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 2:38:07 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-28 13:57, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 1:15:40 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-28 12:56, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 12:10:44 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2018 1:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/28/2018 1:44 PM, jbeattie wrote:


As a society, we used to have a reasonable perspective on pets.
We didn't have a neurotic attachment to dogs as some sort of
furry Xanax.

Or some sort of furry beast that needs Xanax. See
http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjanxiety.html

I know a guy who began dating a rather quirky woman. The woman
sort of gradually moved into his house, something he should not
have let happen. Among her many quirks, she loved dogs and felt
it was her mission in life to rescue one from the local pound.
She "rescued" a _large_ dog with many problems.

Well: The guy was forced to build a large pen for the large dog,
because it wasn't really controllable, despite being on Xanax or
Prosac or some such thing. And eventually, despite the pills, the
dog attacked the guys dear granddaughters.

Soon after that, the dog was gone. And not much later, the woman
was gone too.


Oh, women then.

I met an old friend, an active cyclist in her late-70s, for
breakfast in January. She walked into the diner with a yapping
little demon and I gave her The Stare, asking, 'A dog in a
restaurant?' as the clientele and my beloved waitresses quietly
tried not to overreact.

She very loudly exclaimed that she had paid a doctor $100 for a
certificate so she can go just anywhere with it. Needless to say
I'll miss her company.

Play your cards right, and you can make a pretty penny.
http://gorgenewscenter.com/2018/02/2...-service-dogs/

How do people say with a straight face that a dog can perform "a
chest compression maneuver." Mo
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-no...ned_woman.html

Well, MY dog can give injections and perform a routine prostate exam
with its nose.


Even if you won't believe it, trained dogs can predict an oncoming
epileptic seizure. Before something really bad happens, not when it's
too late. Now who else can do that? Can you?


... It is also proficient with Turbo Tax.


Nah, the tax reform through them a curve.


I've had two plane flights sitting next to someone with a supposed
therapy dog. I saw no therapies administered. Not so much as a back
rub.


The dog could have relieved the pilots, flown the aircraft and defended
against the enemy at the same time:

http://art.cafimg.com/images/Categor...47061gpadd.jpg

I had that picture in max size on the driver side door of my old
Citroen. The reaction inside passing cars with kids in the back was
priceless.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


This post came over sans response :-)


Appropriately so, because now we're meandering into other hypothetical situations involving seizure alert dogs (SADs). The science there is equivocal at best. The highest success rates have been with puppies who had no training at all, and those were based on anecdotal reports. As for adults and trained dogs, its looking like pocket-lining voodoo: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/bo...re-alert-dogs/

I did a medical journal article search that produced a number of articles concluding that there was no reliable evidence that dogs can be trained to predict seizures.

Dogs CAN be trained to do a lot of useful things. That's fine, but don't make dogs more magical than they are as a rationale for owning two as pets. I'm not seeing a lot of police dogs, drug sniffing dogs, sheep herding dogs or other working dogs on the MUPs. Just herds of pet dogs.

-- Jay Beattie.


A dog is just a dog and IMO there are too many people who have dogs who shouldn't. Not for that dog and not for the other people. My brother is a 'dog man'. He enjoys them, takes good care of them and trains them. Everytime I'm over there it a joy to see them and one could think 'I want that too'. I have no time to spend as much time with a dog as my brother does so I have no dog. A lot of people don't either but they just buy a dog anyway.

Shall we start a discussion about the long almost invisible leashes? Boy the really **** me off.

Lou
Ads
  #52  
Old March 1st 18, 04:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,436
Default The lone 26er in a forest full of 29ers and 27.5ers

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 11:40:06 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 1:54:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 2:38:07 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-28 13:57, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 1:15:40 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-28 12:56, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 12:10:44 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/28/2018 1:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/28/2018 1:44 PM, jbeattie wrote:


As a society, we used to have a reasonable perspective on pets..
We didn't have a neurotic attachment to dogs as some sort of
furry Xanax.

Or some sort of furry beast that needs Xanax. See
http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjanxiety.html

I know a guy who began dating a rather quirky woman. The woman
sort of gradually moved into his house, something he should not
have let happen. Among her many quirks, she loved dogs and felt
it was her mission in life to rescue one from the local pound.
She "rescued" a _large_ dog with many problems.

Well: The guy was forced to build a large pen for the large dog,
because it wasn't really controllable, despite being on Xanax or
Prosac or some such thing. And eventually, despite the pills, the
dog attacked the guys dear granddaughters.

Soon after that, the dog was gone. And not much later, the woman
was gone too.


Oh, women then.

I met an old friend, an active cyclist in her late-70s, for
breakfast in January. She walked into the diner with a yapping
little demon and I gave her The Stare, asking, 'A dog in a
restaurant?' as the clientele and my beloved waitresses quietly
tried not to overreact.

She very loudly exclaimed that she had paid a doctor $100 for a
certificate so she can go just anywhere with it. Needless to say
I'll miss her company.

Play your cards right, and you can make a pretty penny.
http://gorgenewscenter.com/2018/02/2...-service-dogs/

How do people say with a straight face that a dog can perform "a
chest compression maneuver." Mo
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-no...ned_woman.html

Well, MY dog can give injections and perform a routine prostate exam
with its nose.


Even if you won't believe it, trained dogs can predict an oncoming
epileptic seizure. Before something really bad happens, not when it's
too late. Now who else can do that? Can you?


... It is also proficient with Turbo Tax.


Nah, the tax reform through them a curve.


I've had two plane flights sitting next to someone with a supposed
therapy dog. I saw no therapies administered. Not so much as a back
rub.


The dog could have relieved the pilots, flown the aircraft and defended
against the enemy at the same time:

http://art.cafimg.com/images/Categor...47061gpadd.jpg

I had that picture in max size on the driver side door of my old
Citroen. The reaction inside passing cars with kids in the back was
priceless.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


This post came over sans response :-)


Appropriately so, because now we're meandering into other hypothetical situations involving seizure alert dogs (SADs). The science there is equivocal at best. The highest success rates have been with puppies who had no training at all, and those were based on anecdotal reports. As for adults and trained dogs, its looking like pocket-lining voodoo: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/bo...re-alert-dogs/

I did a medical journal article search that produced a number of articles concluding that there was no reliable evidence that dogs can be trained to predict seizures.

Dogs CAN be trained to do a lot of useful things. That's fine, but don't make dogs more magical than they are as a rationale for owning two as pets. I'm not seeing a lot of police dogs, drug sniffing dogs, sheep herding dogs or other working dogs on the MUPs. Just herds of pet dogs.

-- Jay Beattie.


A dog is just a dog and IMO there are too many people who have dogs who shouldn't. Not for that dog and not for the other people. My brother is a 'dog man'. He enjoys them, takes good care of them and trains them. Everytime I'm over there it a joy to see them and one could think 'I want that too'. I have no time to spend as much time with a dog as my brother does so I have no dog. A lot of people don't either but they just buy a dog anyway.

Shall we start a discussion about the long almost invisible leashes? Boy the really **** me off.


That is a serious hazard. I have many personal anecdotes, but the most memorable was defending a case where a guy broke his neck after getting a leash wrapped up in his wheel. The dog owner was a deadbeat, so he sued the maker of his CF forks -- which not surprisingly broke after getting a leash wrapped up in the wheel.

More often, though, I encounter dogs that aren't on leashes and should be. I yell at the owners as I'm being charged while climbing or descending a forest road, and the owners just stare or blandly call for the dog. The dog just keeps doing what its doing. My wife got knocked over by a big dog, which is no small issue because of her physical condition, and the response was a lame "oh, he just wants to say hello," or "he likes you" or some utter idiocy. This is in places with giant signs saying dogs must be on leashes. And again, off leash dogs have a huge environmental impact on watershed and forest animals.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #53  
Old March 1st 18, 04:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,553
Default The lone 26er in a forest full of 29ers and 27.5ers

On 2018-02-28 17:45, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 10:41:14 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-02-27 18:20, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:22:08 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-02-27 07:55, sms wrote:
On 2/27/2018 1:11 AM, Ned Mantei wrote:
On 26-02-18 21:34, Joerg wrote:
My experience is the opposite. Horses leave their poop all over but
that ain't so bad.


I agree. Horse droppings dry quickly, leaving only something like hay
fragments on the ground.

I saw no horses all day on Saturday, but lots of nice moist horse
droppings. Maybe it's the fog that comes in at the coast that keeps
things messy.

In any case, public parks should be for self-powered activities.
Equestrians can ride on private land and mess that up as much as they want.


Horses with riders on them were here well before any vehicles, back in
the days when only Native Americans roamed the West. We shall not take
their rights away just because it is now perceived as inconvenient.

In fact, under Federal law, horses and burros have a right to use
public lands.



As they should. In practice that is sometimes curtailed although I don't
know if it would hold in court. Though it often makes sense. For
example, the western section of the singletrack from Lotus to Folsom has
a sign "No horses" and the switchbacks could be dangerous for horse and
rider. Even mountain bikers have gone over a cliff there.


I was referring to the so wild horses that are managed by the Bureau
of Land Management on 26.9 million acres of public lands across 10
western states.



Though the goverment take the liberty to decide which ones they will
kill and thus take away their right to roam. They don't yet do that with
mountain bikers :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #54  
Old March 1st 18, 04:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,553
Default The lone 26er in a forest full of 29ers and 27.5ers

On 2018-02-28 17:51, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 10:44:31 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 8:00:12 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-27 18:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 5:02:45 PM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-02-27 13:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/27/2018 1:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I don't see any place for horses on popular public
forest trails or unleashed dogs -- one of which nearly
tackled my wife, who is not as robust as she once was.
There are far, far too many dogs in the world.

"A well-trained dog is a joy and a delight. An untrained
dog is a damned nuisance. Most dogs are untrained." -
Stewart Brand

Within the last two days:

A) on my mountain bike, I thought I would get run into by a
large dog running illegally off-leash in our local forest
preserve. The owner didn't hear me coming because she was
yakking on her cell phone. She apologized, but continued
allowing her dogs to run.

B) Our very nice neighbors' micro-dog has yapped loudly
when it saw me outside. It also yapped loudly when it
didn't see me outside, because it yaps incredibly loudly
any time anything catches its attention. That's true even
at 7 AM.

C) I spent some time with a very sweet, intelligent Golden
Retriever at a friend's house. But that young dog is still
too excitable to be trusted not to jump on guests.
Hopefully it will calm down as it matures.

I've known a very few very nice dogs. I've known a few
tolerable dogs. I've known or encountered hundreds of
obnoxious dogs. Unless a person lives in the country and
hunts, farms or runs a ranch, I don't see the attraction.


Join us and our two Labradors who are trained therapy dogs on
a visit to an Alzheimer's place. Dogs can open peoples minds
there like no human ever can. On of our dogs was guiding a
blind woman for a while. In San Francisco, not on a ranch.
How do you suppose that should be done without a dog?

I was in a surgery waiting room a few years ago and some
candy-striper brought in a "therapy dog" to calm the anxious
family members, and all the other dogs people had smuggled into
the waiting room started barking. It was like a f****** dog
pound. Not calming for me. Plus, it's like forced dog petting
-- you are a monster unless you pet the f****** dog and remark
to the handler about what a great dog it is. Again, not calming
for me.

As Frank said, "working dogs" are a different animal. Guide
dogs, drug sniffing dogs, herding dogs, etc. can justify their
often massive carbon footprints. As for "therapy" dogs, why not
cats, lizards, fish, robots? I'd take a Swedish underwear
model with a vodka tonic.

"The studies based on robot substitutes yielded positive
results. These studies suggest the possibility of using robot
substitutes for patients with Dementia, but further studies are
required to better define the technique. Shibata et al., 2001
The text of the note suggest that robot therapy has the same
effects on people as animal therapy and are currently
conducting an experiment in a dementia care centre in Denmark.
Preliminary results obtained from the 7-month clinical trial
showed positive effects on elderly patients' mental health, but
a larger patient sample and control group were necessary to
scientifically verify the study's effects."

Review; Animal-assisted interventions for elderly patients
affected by dementia or psychiatric disorders: A review; (2013)
47 EJPSYR 6 762-773

If you really care about the environment, you do not own two
dogs just to own two dogs -- or three or five or ten. I see
goddamned dog herds on some of the MUPs.


Obviosly you have never been arond a lot of people with
Alzheimer's. I have, for decades.


I have. My sister-in-law died of Alzheimer's. My father-in-law was
in a facility for 11 years before he died. My son spent the first
four years of his life running around the place. I suspect he was
more therapeutic to the occupants than a dog. As an ambulance
driver in the '70s and '80s, I was transporting Alzheimers patients
before there was even a diagnostic criteria for the disease. And
before that, I was delivering pharmaceuticals to what we
euphemistically called "rest homes" starting at age seven. My
father was a pharmacist, and we owned a small-town drug store. I've
been seeing people with senile dementia and Alzheimers in clinical
and long-term care settings since I was a kid.

And what does this have to do with the over-population of dogs?
There is no proof of

any long-term benefit to Alzheimer's patients from dog-therapy, and
other therapies are equally effective -- like people and robots,
even fish. Everybody claims their dog is a therapy, companion,
assist dog, generally as a dodge to get the damned thing into a
restaurant or movie theater or to prove its incredible importance to
society. It's the new thing to do. It's right up there with "owning a
dog is just like raising a child!" Right.


A Friend, who had three very lively kids, once commented that
"raising kids is just like raising hunting dogs. Except I believe
that the dogs learn a bit quicker." :-)


I think Doris Day said that: "Until the age of 14 men mature. After that
they just grow".

Regarding therapy dogs not being there when you grew up that's because
people just did what needed to be done. They knew of the therapeutic
effect of some animals, at least where I grew up. Just like there was no
formal foster child system in the old days, when a kid lost the parents
neighbors just took him or her in with theirs. People took care of each
other.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #55  
Old March 1st 18, 05:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,337
Default The lone 26er in a forest full of 29ers and 27.5ers

On 3/1/2018 10:33 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 11:40:06 PM UTC-8, wrote:

Shall we start a discussion about the long almost invisible leashes? Boy the really **** me off.


That is a serious hazard. I have many personal anecdotes, but the most memorable was defending a case where a guy broke his neck after getting a leash wrapped up in his wheel. The dog owner was a deadbeat, so he sued the maker of his CF forks -- which not surprisingly broke after getting a leash wrapped up in the wheel.

More often, though, I encounter dogs that aren't on leashes and should be. I yell at the owners as I'm being charged while climbing or descending a forest road, and the owners just stare or blandly call for the dog. The dog just keeps doing what its doing. My wife got knocked over by a big dog, which is no small issue because of her physical condition, and the response was a lame "oh, he just wants to say hello," or "he likes you" or some utter idiocy. This is in places with giant signs saying dogs must be on leashes. And again, off leash dogs have a huge environmental impact on watershed and forest animals.


As I've mentioned, my family and I began avid adult cycling in the 1970s
in a rural southern town. Loose dogs were everywhere, bike chasing was
common, and owners would yell at us if we tried to defend ourselves.
("Don't you kick my dog!!")

We moved north to a much more civilized area where loose dogs are rare
(except in our local forest preserve, despite the signs). Anyway,
because of our 1970s experiences, my wife is pretty afraid of dogs when
she's riding. So each of our bikes has a can of Halt pepper spray
clipped in easy reach. It's rarely used, but it's there.

If the stream is aimed well, it's pretty effective. But if I miss, I'll
usually turn around on the road and go back for another shot or two. I'm
training the dogs not to attack bikes. It's a service I provide to the
dog owners. They should pay me.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #56  
Old March 1st 18, 10:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default The lone 26er in a forest full of 29ers and 27.5ers

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 07:58:48 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-02-28 17:51, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 10:44:31 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 8:00:12 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-27 18:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 5:02:45 PM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-02-27 13:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/27/2018 1:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I don't see any place for horses on popular public
forest trails or unleashed dogs -- one of which nearly
tackled my wife, who is not as robust as she once was.
There are far, far too many dogs in the world.

"A well-trained dog is a joy and a delight. An untrained
dog is a damned nuisance. Most dogs are untrained." -
Stewart Brand

Within the last two days:

A) on my mountain bike, I thought I would get run into by a
large dog running illegally off-leash in our local forest
preserve. The owner didn't hear me coming because she was
yakking on her cell phone. She apologized, but continued
allowing her dogs to run.

B) Our very nice neighbors' micro-dog has yapped loudly
when it saw me outside. It also yapped loudly when it
didn't see me outside, because it yaps incredibly loudly
any time anything catches its attention. That's true even
at 7 AM.

C) I spent some time with a very sweet, intelligent Golden
Retriever at a friend's house. But that young dog is still
too excitable to be trusted not to jump on guests.
Hopefully it will calm down as it matures.

I've known a very few very nice dogs. I've known a few
tolerable dogs. I've known or encountered hundreds of
obnoxious dogs. Unless a person lives in the country and
hunts, farms or runs a ranch, I don't see the attraction.


Join us and our two Labradors who are trained therapy dogs on
a visit to an Alzheimer's place. Dogs can open peoples minds
there like no human ever can. On of our dogs was guiding a
blind woman for a while. In San Francisco, not on a ranch.
How do you suppose that should be done without a dog?

I was in a surgery waiting room a few years ago and some
candy-striper brought in a "therapy dog" to calm the anxious
family members, and all the other dogs people had smuggled into
the waiting room started barking. It was like a f****** dog
pound. Not calming for me. Plus, it's like forced dog petting
-- you are a monster unless you pet the f****** dog and remark
to the handler about what a great dog it is. Again, not calming
for me.

As Frank said, "working dogs" are a different animal. Guide
dogs, drug sniffing dogs, herding dogs, etc. can justify their
often massive carbon footprints. As for "therapy" dogs, why not
cats, lizards, fish, robots? I'd take a Swedish underwear
model with a vodka tonic.

"The studies based on robot substitutes yielded positive
results. These studies suggest the possibility of using robot
substitutes for patients with Dementia, but further studies are
required to better define the technique. Shibata et al., 2001
The text of the note suggest that robot therapy has the same
effects on people as animal therapy and are currently
conducting an experiment in a dementia care centre in Denmark.
Preliminary results obtained from the 7-month clinical trial
showed positive effects on elderly patients' mental health, but
a larger patient sample and control group were necessary to
scientifically verify the study's effects."

Review; Animal-assisted interventions for elderly patients
affected by dementia or psychiatric disorders: A review; (2013)
47 EJPSYR 6 762-773

If you really care about the environment, you do not own two
dogs just to own two dogs -- or three or five or ten. I see
goddamned dog herds on some of the MUPs.


Obviosly you have never been arond a lot of people with
Alzheimer's. I have, for decades.

I have. My sister-in-law died of Alzheimer's. My father-in-law was
in a facility for 11 years before he died. My son spent the first
four years of his life running around the place. I suspect he was
more therapeutic to the occupants than a dog. As an ambulance
driver in the '70s and '80s, I was transporting Alzheimers patients
before there was even a diagnostic criteria for the disease. And
before that, I was delivering pharmaceuticals to what we
euphemistically called "rest homes" starting at age seven. My
father was a pharmacist, and we owned a small-town drug store. I've
been seeing people with senile dementia and Alzheimers in clinical
and long-term care settings since I was a kid.

And what does this have to do with the over-population of dogs?
There is no proof of

any long-term benefit to Alzheimer's patients from dog-therapy, and
other therapies are equally effective -- like people and robots,
even fish. Everybody claims their dog is a therapy, companion,
assist dog, generally as a dodge to get the damned thing into a
restaurant or movie theater or to prove its incredible importance to
society. It's the new thing to do. It's right up there with "owning a
dog is just like raising a child!" Right.


A Friend, who had three very lively kids, once commented that
"raising kids is just like raising hunting dogs. Except I believe
that the dogs learn a bit quicker." :-)


I think Doris Day said that: "Until the age of 14 men mature. After that
they just grow".

Regarding therapy dogs not being there when you grew up that's because
people just did what needed to be done. They knew of the therapeutic
effect of some animals, at least where I grew up.


I'm not sure about that. At least I can't remember anything regarding
the "therapeutic effect of some animals". In fact, as I remember it,
animals generally were kept because they "worked for a living". If you
stored any sort of animal feed (other then hay) in the barn you
probably had "barn cats", in other words cats that lived in the barn.
Why barn cats? Well because if you store grain you have mice and rats
and cats kill and eat mice and rats. If you wanted to drink milk you
had a cow, and so on. But a critter kept just so you could pet it or
it could lay it's head in your lap? I can't remember a single
instance.

Just like there was no
formal foster child system in the old days, when a kid lost the parents
neighbors just took him or her in with theirs. People took care of each
other.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #57  
Old March 1st 18, 11:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,553
Default The lone 26er in a forest full of 29ers and 27.5ers

On 2018-03-01 13:45, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 07:58:48 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-02-28 17:51, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 10:44:31 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 8:00:12 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-27 18:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 5:02:45 PM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-02-27 13:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/27/2018 1:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I don't see any place for horses on popular public
forest trails or unleashed dogs -- one of which nearly
tackled my wife, who is not as robust as she once was.
There are far, far too many dogs in the world.

"A well-trained dog is a joy and a delight. An untrained
dog is a damned nuisance. Most dogs are untrained." -
Stewart Brand

Within the last two days:

A) on my mountain bike, I thought I would get run into by a
large dog running illegally off-leash in our local forest
preserve. The owner didn't hear me coming because she was
yakking on her cell phone. She apologized, but continued
allowing her dogs to run.

B) Our very nice neighbors' micro-dog has yapped loudly
when it saw me outside. It also yapped loudly when it
didn't see me outside, because it yaps incredibly loudly
any time anything catches its attention. That's true even
at 7 AM.

C) I spent some time with a very sweet, intelligent Golden
Retriever at a friend's house. But that young dog is still
too excitable to be trusted not to jump on guests.
Hopefully it will calm down as it matures.

I've known a very few very nice dogs. I've known a few
tolerable dogs. I've known or encountered hundreds of
obnoxious dogs. Unless a person lives in the country and
hunts, farms or runs a ranch, I don't see the attraction.


Join us and our two Labradors who are trained therapy dogs on
a visit to an Alzheimer's place. Dogs can open peoples minds
there like no human ever can. On of our dogs was guiding a
blind woman for a while. In San Francisco, not on a ranch.
How do you suppose that should be done without a dog?

I was in a surgery waiting room a few years ago and some
candy-striper brought in a "therapy dog" to calm the anxious
family members, and all the other dogs people had smuggled into
the waiting room started barking. It was like a f****** dog
pound. Not calming for me. Plus, it's like forced dog petting
-- you are a monster unless you pet the f****** dog and remark
to the handler about what a great dog it is. Again, not calming
for me.

As Frank said, "working dogs" are a different animal. Guide
dogs, drug sniffing dogs, herding dogs, etc. can justify their
often massive carbon footprints. As for "therapy" dogs, why not
cats, lizards, fish, robots? I'd take a Swedish underwear
model with a vodka tonic.

"The studies based on robot substitutes yielded positive
results. These studies suggest the possibility of using robot
substitutes for patients with Dementia, but further studies are
required to better define the technique. Shibata et al., 2001
The text of the note suggest that robot therapy has the same
effects on people as animal therapy and are currently
conducting an experiment in a dementia care centre in Denmark.
Preliminary results obtained from the 7-month clinical trial
showed positive effects on elderly patients' mental health, but
a larger patient sample and control group were necessary to
scientifically verify the study's effects."

Review; Animal-assisted interventions for elderly patients
affected by dementia or psychiatric disorders: A review; (2013)
47 EJPSYR 6 762-773

If you really care about the environment, you do not own two
dogs just to own two dogs -- or three or five or ten. I see
goddamned dog herds on some of the MUPs.


Obviosly you have never been arond a lot of people with
Alzheimer's. I have, for decades.

I have. My sister-in-law died of Alzheimer's. My father-in-law was
in a facility for 11 years before he died. My son spent the first
four years of his life running around the place. I suspect he was
more therapeutic to the occupants than a dog. As an ambulance
driver in the '70s and '80s, I was transporting Alzheimers patients
before there was even a diagnostic criteria for the disease. And
before that, I was delivering pharmaceuticals to what we
euphemistically called "rest homes" starting at age seven. My
father was a pharmacist, and we owned a small-town drug store. I've
been seeing people with senile dementia and Alzheimers in clinical
and long-term care settings since I was a kid.

And what does this have to do with the over-population of dogs?
There is no proof of
any long-term benefit to Alzheimer's patients from dog-therapy, and
other therapies are equally effective -- like people and robots,
even fish. Everybody claims their dog is a therapy, companion,
assist dog, generally as a dodge to get the damned thing into a
restaurant or movie theater or to prove its incredible importance to
society. It's the new thing to do. It's right up there with "owning a
dog is just like raising a child!" Right.


A Friend, who had three very lively kids, once commented that
"raising kids is just like raising hunting dogs. Except I believe
that the dogs learn a bit quicker." :-)


I think Doris Day said that: "Until the age of 14 men mature. After that
they just grow".

Regarding therapy dogs not being there when you grew up that's because
people just did what needed to be done. They knew of the therapeutic
effect of some animals, at least where I grew up.


I'm not sure about that. At least I can't remember anything regarding
the "therapeutic effect of some animals". In fact, as I remember it,
animals generally were kept because they "worked for a living". If you
stored any sort of animal feed (other then hay) in the barn you
probably had "barn cats", in other words cats that lived in the barn.
Why barn cats? Well because if you store grain you have mice and rats
and cats kill and eat mice and rats. If you wanted to drink milk you
had a cow, and so on.



Same where I grew up.


... But a critter kept just so you could pet it or
it could lay it's head in your lap? I can't remember a single
instance.


Lots of older women back then had a cat in the kitchen that sat in their
lap a lot. Sometimes for more than an hour when they were knitting
something. The kitchen used to be the largest room in the house where
everyone generally hung out. The dog usually also had its pillow there.

Many farmers had a good personal relationship with some of their horses.
They spent time with them outside work. Even if it was just to smoke a
pipe and not be bothered by people. Horses tend not to nag and they are
pleasant to be around.

Wild animals can be fun as well once they trust you enough.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #58  
Old March 2nd 18, 03:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,436
Default The lone 26er in a forest full of 29ers and 27.5ers

On Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 2:10:46 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-01 13:45, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 07:58:48 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-02-28 17:51, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 10:44:31 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 8:00:12 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-27 18:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 5:02:45 PM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-02-27 13:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/27/2018 1:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I don't see any place for horses on popular public
forest trails or unleashed dogs -- one of which nearly
tackled my wife, who is not as robust as she once was.
There are far, far too many dogs in the world.

"A well-trained dog is a joy and a delight. An untrained
dog is a damned nuisance. Most dogs are untrained." -
Stewart Brand

Within the last two days:

A) on my mountain bike, I thought I would get run into by a
large dog running illegally off-leash in our local forest
preserve. The owner didn't hear me coming because she was
yakking on her cell phone. She apologized, but continued
allowing her dogs to run.

B) Our very nice neighbors' micro-dog has yapped loudly
when it saw me outside. It also yapped loudly when it
didn't see me outside, because it yaps incredibly loudly
any time anything catches its attention. That's true even
at 7 AM.

C) I spent some time with a very sweet, intelligent Golden
Retriever at a friend's house. But that young dog is still
too excitable to be trusted not to jump on guests.
Hopefully it will calm down as it matures.

I've known a very few very nice dogs. I've known a few
tolerable dogs. I've known or encountered hundreds of
obnoxious dogs. Unless a person lives in the country and
hunts, farms or runs a ranch, I don't see the attraction.


Join us and our two Labradors who are trained therapy dogs on
a visit to an Alzheimer's place. Dogs can open peoples minds
there like no human ever can. On of our dogs was guiding a
blind woman for a while. In San Francisco, not on a ranch.
How do you suppose that should be done without a dog?

I was in a surgery waiting room a few years ago and some
candy-striper brought in a "therapy dog" to calm the anxious
family members, and all the other dogs people had smuggled into
the waiting room started barking. It was like a f****** dog
pound. Not calming for me. Plus, it's like forced dog petting
-- you are a monster unless you pet the f****** dog and remark
to the handler about what a great dog it is. Again, not calming
for me.

As Frank said, "working dogs" are a different animal. Guide
dogs, drug sniffing dogs, herding dogs, etc. can justify their
often massive carbon footprints. As for "therapy" dogs, why not
cats, lizards, fish, robots? I'd take a Swedish underwear
model with a vodka tonic.

"The studies based on robot substitutes yielded positive
results. These studies suggest the possibility of using robot
substitutes for patients with Dementia, but further studies are
required to better define the technique. Shibata et al., 2001
The text of the note suggest that robot therapy has the same
effects on people as animal therapy and are currently
conducting an experiment in a dementia care centre in Denmark.
Preliminary results obtained from the 7-month clinical trial
showed positive effects on elderly patients' mental health, but
a larger patient sample and control group were necessary to
scientifically verify the study's effects."

Review; Animal-assisted interventions for elderly patients
affected by dementia or psychiatric disorders: A review; (2013)
47 EJPSYR 6 762-773

If you really care about the environment, you do not own two
dogs just to own two dogs -- or three or five or ten. I see
goddamned dog herds on some of the MUPs.


Obviosly you have never been arond a lot of people with
Alzheimer's. I have, for decades.

I have. My sister-in-law died of Alzheimer's. My father-in-law was
in a facility for 11 years before he died. My son spent the first
four years of his life running around the place. I suspect he was
more therapeutic to the occupants than a dog. As an ambulance
driver in the '70s and '80s, I was transporting Alzheimers patients
before there was even a diagnostic criteria for the disease. And
before that, I was delivering pharmaceuticals to what we
euphemistically called "rest homes" starting at age seven. My
father was a pharmacist, and we owned a small-town drug store. I've
been seeing people with senile dementia and Alzheimers in clinical
and long-term care settings since I was a kid.

And what does this have to do with the over-population of dogs?
There is no proof of
any long-term benefit to Alzheimer's patients from dog-therapy, and
other therapies are equally effective -- like people and robots,
even fish. Everybody claims their dog is a therapy, companion,
assist dog, generally as a dodge to get the damned thing into a
restaurant or movie theater or to prove its incredible importance to
society. It's the new thing to do. It's right up there with "owning a
dog is just like raising a child!" Right.


A Friend, who had three very lively kids, once commented that
"raising kids is just like raising hunting dogs. Except I believe
that the dogs learn a bit quicker." :-)


I think Doris Day said that: "Until the age of 14 men mature. After that
they just grow".

Regarding therapy dogs not being there when you grew up that's because
people just did what needed to be done. They knew of the therapeutic
effect of some animals, at least where I grew up.


I'm not sure about that. At least I can't remember anything regarding
the "therapeutic effect of some animals". In fact, as I remember it,
animals generally were kept because they "worked for a living". If you
stored any sort of animal feed (other then hay) in the barn you
probably had "barn cats", in other words cats that lived in the barn.
Why barn cats? Well because if you store grain you have mice and rats
and cats kill and eat mice and rats. If you wanted to drink milk you
had a cow, and so on.



Same where I grew up.


... But a critter kept just so you could pet it or
it could lay it's head in your lap? I can't remember a single
instance.


Lots of older women back then had a cat in the kitchen that sat in their
lap a lot. Sometimes for more than an hour when they were knitting
something. The kitchen used to be the largest room in the house where
everyone generally hung out. The dog usually also had its pillow there.


One of my many jobs I had as a child was taking care of an old lady who had 20 cats. She lived in one room of a tiny house with all her cats -- a frightening looking woman with crazy gray hair who was arthritic and confined mostly to bed. It was like a Dickens novel but with lots of cats. The places stunk to high heaven.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #59  
Old March 2nd 18, 04:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,167
Default The lone 26er in a forest full of 29ers and 27.5ers

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 11:26:33 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

If the stream is aimed well, it's pretty effective. But if I miss, I'll
usually turn around on the road and go back for another shot or two. I'm
training the dogs not to attack bikes. It's a service I provide to the
dog owners. They should pay me.


I used to live on a triangle of roads that would have been a very nice
short ride if there hadn't been a dog who lived in a dip on the back
leg, and always made me brake just when I wanted to conserve momentum
for the next climb.

So when I got my first can of Halt, I went dog-hunting. I sped down
the hill, the dog rushed out to attack, I fired, I missed.

So when I got to the top of the hill, I turned around for another
pass. Missed again. Before I got enough target practice to hit
something, the dog stopped coming into range. Finally I rode by and
the dog feebly lifted his head from his forepaws and emitted a dutiful
"woof".

He never bothered me again.

I often thought that if I had a dog that chased, I'd take him out to
the Mohawk-Hudson Bikeway on a holiday afternoon, tie him to a tree,
and let him bark himself into a coma.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

  #60  
Old March 2nd 18, 07:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default The lone 26er in a forest full of 29ers and 27.5ers

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 14:10:49 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-01 13:45, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 07:58:48 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-02-28 17:51, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 10:44:31 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 8:00:12 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-27 18:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 5:02:45 PM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-02-27 13:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/27/2018 1:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I don't see any place for horses on popular public
forest trails or unleashed dogs -- one of which nearly
tackled my wife, who is not as robust as she once was.
There are far, far too many dogs in the world.

"A well-trained dog is a joy and a delight. An untrained
dog is a damned nuisance. Most dogs are untrained." -
Stewart Brand

Within the last two days:

A) on my mountain bike, I thought I would get run into by a
large dog running illegally off-leash in our local forest
preserve. The owner didn't hear me coming because she was
yakking on her cell phone. She apologized, but continued
allowing her dogs to run.

B) Our very nice neighbors' micro-dog has yapped loudly
when it saw me outside. It also yapped loudly when it
didn't see me outside, because it yaps incredibly loudly
any time anything catches its attention. That's true even
at 7 AM.

C) I spent some time with a very sweet, intelligent Golden
Retriever at a friend's house. But that young dog is still
too excitable to be trusted not to jump on guests.
Hopefully it will calm down as it matures.

I've known a very few very nice dogs. I've known a few
tolerable dogs. I've known or encountered hundreds of
obnoxious dogs. Unless a person lives in the country and
hunts, farms or runs a ranch, I don't see the attraction.


Join us and our two Labradors who are trained therapy dogs on
a visit to an Alzheimer's place. Dogs can open peoples minds
there like no human ever can. On of our dogs was guiding a
blind woman for a while. In San Francisco, not on a ranch.
How do you suppose that should be done without a dog?

I was in a surgery waiting room a few years ago and some
candy-striper brought in a "therapy dog" to calm the anxious
family members, and all the other dogs people had smuggled into
the waiting room started barking. It was like a f****** dog
pound. Not calming for me. Plus, it's like forced dog petting
-- you are a monster unless you pet the f****** dog and remark
to the handler about what a great dog it is. Again, not calming
for me.

As Frank said, "working dogs" are a different animal. Guide
dogs, drug sniffing dogs, herding dogs, etc. can justify their
often massive carbon footprints. As for "therapy" dogs, why not
cats, lizards, fish, robots? I'd take a Swedish underwear
model with a vodka tonic.

"The studies based on robot substitutes yielded positive
results. These studies suggest the possibility of using robot
substitutes for patients with Dementia, but further studies are
required to better define the technique. Shibata et al., 2001
The text of the note suggest that robot therapy has the same
effects on people as animal therapy and are currently
conducting an experiment in a dementia care centre in Denmark.
Preliminary results obtained from the 7-month clinical trial
showed positive effects on elderly patients' mental health, but
a larger patient sample and control group were necessary to
scientifically verify the study's effects."

Review; Animal-assisted interventions for elderly patients
affected by dementia or psychiatric disorders: A review; (2013)
47 EJPSYR 6 762-773

If you really care about the environment, you do not own two
dogs just to own two dogs -- or three or five or ten. I see
goddamned dog herds on some of the MUPs.


Obviosly you have never been arond a lot of people with
Alzheimer's. I have, for decades.

I have. My sister-in-law died of Alzheimer's. My father-in-law was
in a facility for 11 years before he died. My son spent the first
four years of his life running around the place. I suspect he was
more therapeutic to the occupants than a dog. As an ambulance
driver in the '70s and '80s, I was transporting Alzheimers patients
before there was even a diagnostic criteria for the disease. And
before that, I was delivering pharmaceuticals to what we
euphemistically called "rest homes" starting at age seven. My
father was a pharmacist, and we owned a small-town drug store. I've
been seeing people with senile dementia and Alzheimers in clinical
and long-term care settings since I was a kid.

And what does this have to do with the over-population of dogs?
There is no proof of
any long-term benefit to Alzheimer's patients from dog-therapy, and
other therapies are equally effective -- like people and robots,
even fish. Everybody claims their dog is a therapy, companion,
assist dog, generally as a dodge to get the damned thing into a
restaurant or movie theater or to prove its incredible importance to
society. It's the new thing to do. It's right up there with "owning a
dog is just like raising a child!" Right.


A Friend, who had three very lively kids, once commented that
"raising kids is just like raising hunting dogs. Except I believe
that the dogs learn a bit quicker." :-)


I think Doris Day said that: "Until the age of 14 men mature. After that
they just grow".

Regarding therapy dogs not being there when you grew up that's because
people just did what needed to be done. They knew of the therapeutic
effect of some animals, at least where I grew up.


I'm not sure about that. At least I can't remember anything regarding
the "therapeutic effect of some animals". In fact, as I remember it,
animals generally were kept because they "worked for a living". If you
stored any sort of animal feed (other then hay) in the barn you
probably had "barn cats", in other words cats that lived in the barn.
Why barn cats? Well because if you store grain you have mice and rats
and cats kill and eat mice and rats. If you wanted to drink milk you
had a cow, and so on.



Same where I grew up.


... But a critter kept just so you could pet it or
it could lay it's head in your lap? I can't remember a single
instance.


Lots of older women back then had a cat in the kitchen that sat in their
lap a lot. Sometimes for more than an hour when they were knitting
something. The kitchen used to be the largest room in the house where
everyone generally hung out. The dog usually also had its pillow there.


When I think back I don't remember any farm wives, i.e., women that
actually had to do things every day, that had a cat in the kitchen. If
for not other reason then they "get under foot" when you are trying to
do something and a woman that cooks for, oh say, a family of 4 or 5,
does the washing, and has a few chickens out back, and maybe a small
garden for the herbs and spices, doesn't have much time for sitting
around knitting. And as for the dog having a bed in the kitchen, that
would have been a no-no. Dogs stink.

Maybe not a modern town dog that goes to the dog beautician for a wash
and perm every month, but I can assure you that a "working" dog,
whether a young lad's companion or one that herds sheep stinks. After
all, the only bath they get is when they are caught out in the rain
:-)

Many farmers had a good personal relationship with some of their horses.
They spent time with them outside work. Even if it was just to smoke a
pipe and not be bothered by people. Horses tend not to nag and they are
pleasant to be around.


When I was a young fellow there were still a few farmers left that
were farming with a team and my father owned a couple of Quarter
Horses for some years and I'm not sure how "personal" a relationship
existed between horses and men. If for no other reason then a horse
can be almost unbelievably stupid. Or perhaps extremely self centered
:-) You haul a manger full of hay down for the critter, dish out some
oats, haul in a bucket of water and when you start you start to brush
the mud out of his tail, he kicks you.

Wild animals can be fun as well once they trust you enough.

[...]

--
Cheers,

John B.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Euro 26er smcmorrow Unicycling 1 March 15th 07 06:40 AM
Euro 26er HistoricalGoof Unicycling 7 March 14th 07 04:34 PM
my 26er nears completion jagur Unicycling 25 August 29th 06 10:53 AM
26er vs. 29er... help! daino149 Unicycling 6 January 22nd 04 05:57 PM
29ers Mike DeMicco Mountain Biking 34 October 5th 03 07:15 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.