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  #71  
Old May 23rd 19, 11:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 311
Default Bottle holder

On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:55:42 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2019 5:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 22 May 2019 20:56:05 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I
tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling
machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame.
Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig
https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/

snip

Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to
prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center
punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could
use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill.


I keep promising myself that I will ignore you but you keep coming up
with increasingly stupid statements.

Tell us, oh great pundit, why shouldn't one use a center punch on an
aluminum frame?

But before you start telling tall tales you should realize that when
the hole is drilled it removes not only the center punch indentation
itself but considerable (in reference to the size of the center punch
dimple) material around the indentation.


One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to
align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the
tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger
drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was
bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along
its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked
the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist."

Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you
seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the
frame afterward.


Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it
is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it
will be water proof?


Like door panels in cars, water always gets in. The key
point of design is to vent the piece with drainhole(s).


Hmm... luckily you don't build boats :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.
Ads
  #72  
Old May 24th 19, 12:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 311
Default Bottle holder

On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when
drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration,
at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can
change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner.


It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any
course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress
concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a
partial refund if that school is still in existence.

Well, I can only comment that in my career I drilled holes in just
about everything that flew and much of that was specified in either
manufacturer's designs and/or specifications from people who had been
assigned to design and document a modification and I cannot remember
ever seeing any specifications, or directions, or other data intended
to tell me how to change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some
specific manner.

So kindly teach me. But before you get off your podium please remember
that we are not talking about designing a hole, or placing a hole or
any other fuzzy example that you may care to elaborate on. We are
discussing the drilling, or boring of a cylindrical passageway through
a base material.

We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of
holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by
journeyman machinists.


I assume that you are referring to the following
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investiga...494862071.html

If so than once again you demonstrate that you simply do not know what
you are talking about and apparently haven't even bothered to take the
time to "read up" on what you are trying to say.

The "holes you are talking about aren't drilled, i.e. cylindrical,
holes but are , apparently, cut "holes" as described in the article,
that you obviously didn't read, which says, "It's not a good
structural element, says mechanical engineer Bernard Cuzzillo,
referring to rectangular notches clearly cut in the four-inch thick
steel at the bottom of the 85-foot long I-beam used to support the
terminal deck across Fremont Street.

Please note, "RECTANGULAR NOTCHES" not drilled holes.
Unless, of course, you anticipate cutting rectangular holes to install
the cylindrical revnuts.

For God's Sake! They even had a video that clearly showed the cut,
angular, holes... and you didn't even bother to watch the movie.
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #73  
Old May 24th 19, 12:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 311
Default Bottle holder

On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:58:59 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip.

Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it
is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it
will be water proof?


Rivnuts routinely become loose, even when installed at the factory. Some
sort of sealant, or paint, should be used to fill the gaps that will exist.


Hmm... I would suggest that you simply don't know what you are talking
about as I've worked on DC-3's that wee originally built in the 1930's
and there was no evidence of the de-icer boots, held on by rivnuts,
coming loose.

But of course, the de-icer boots would have been installed by
knowledgeable people not by some illiterate oaf that can't even
tighten a screw properly.
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #74  
Old May 24th 19, 12:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,334
Default Bottle holder

On 5/23/2019 5:28 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:49:10 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/22/2019 10:56 PM, sms wrote:
On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle
frame. I
tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill
press or milling
machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on
an a frame.
Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig
https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/


snip

Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight
and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't
want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to
achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished
frame with a right-angle drill.

One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was
difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit
tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a
small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted
to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted
in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned
along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by
much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and
caused the cage to twist."

Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to
ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in
since you won't be painting the frame afterward.


"don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame."
Why ever not?

"drill bit shifted to the side a little."
With a centerpunch dimple and a drill sharpened to be
symmetric they don't walk.


Ah but... it sounds as though your shop can sharpen a drill bit, but
from what I read here it is a very difficult task that only certain
shops can accomplish :-)

Perhaps the subject got an advert? We can sharpen a drill bit!


Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit??


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #75  
Old May 24th 19, 12:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,334
Default Bottle holder

On 5/23/2019 5:29 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:55:42 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2019 5:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 22 May 2019 20:56:05 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I
tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling
machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame.
Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig
https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/

snip

Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to
prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center
punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could
use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill.

I keep promising myself that I will ignore you but you keep coming up
with increasingly stupid statements.

Tell us, oh great pundit, why shouldn't one use a center punch on an
aluminum frame?

But before you start telling tall tales you should realize that when
the hole is drilled it removes not only the center punch indentation
itself but considerable (in reference to the size of the center punch
dimple) material around the indentation.


One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to
align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the
tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger
drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was
bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along
its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked
the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist."

Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you
seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the
frame afterward.

Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it
is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it
will be water proof?


Like door panels in cars, water always gets in. The key
point of design is to vent the piece with drainhole(s).


Hmm... luckily you don't build boats :-)



No bilge pump on a bicycle.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #76  
Old May 24th 19, 12:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,334
Default Bottle holder

On 5/23/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when
drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration,
at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can
change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner.


It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any
course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress
concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a
partial refund if that school is still in existence.

Well, I can only comment that in my career I drilled holes in just
about everything that flew and much of that was specified in either
manufacturer's designs and/or specifications from people who had been
assigned to design and document a modification and I cannot remember
ever seeing any specifications, or directions, or other data intended
to tell me how to change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some
specific manner.

So kindly teach me. But before you get off your podium please remember
that we are not talking about designing a hole, or placing a hole or
any other fuzzy example that you may care to elaborate on. We are
discussing the drilling, or boring of a cylindrical passageway through
a base material.

We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of
holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by
journeyman machinists.


I assume that you are referring to the following
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investiga...494862071.html

If so than once again you demonstrate that you simply do not know what
you are talking about and apparently haven't even bothered to take the
time to "read up" on what you are trying to say.

The "holes you are talking about aren't drilled, i.e. cylindrical,
holes but are , apparently, cut "holes" as described in the article,
that you obviously didn't read, which says, "It's not a good
structural element, says mechanical engineer Bernard Cuzzillo,
referring to rectangular notches clearly cut in the four-inch thick
steel at the bottom of the 85-foot long I-beam used to support the
terminal deck across Fremont Street.

Please note, "RECTANGULAR NOTCHES" not drilled holes.
Unless, of course, you anticipate cutting rectangular holes to install
the cylindrical revnuts.

For God's Sake! They even had a video that clearly showed the cut,
angular, holes... and you didn't even bother to watch the movie.



Square apertures like a DeHavilland Comet? What could go wrong?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #77  
Old May 24th 19, 12:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,558
Default Bottle holder

On 5/23/2019 4:09 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:58:59 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip.

Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it
is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it
will be water proof?


Rivnuts routinely become loose, even when installed at the factory. Some
sort of sealant, or paint, should be used to fill the gaps that will exist.


Hmm... I would suggest that you simply don't know what you are talking
about as I've worked on DC-3's that wee originally built in the 1930's
and there was no evidence of the de-icer boots, held on by rivnuts,
coming loose.


Geez, just read various forums about Rivnuts on coming loose and
spinning. Or rattling. It's extremely common. This is unrelated to 1930
prop planes.

Regarding improperly drilled holes, as Mike Jacubowsky, owner of Chain
Reaction Bicycles in Redwood City, CA stated: "Of course, if you're not
careful with the rivnut installion (for example, a jagged-edged hole),
this too can cause frame failure" but he was referring to thin-wall
steel tubes. I suppose that one advantage of aluminum frames is that the
tubes have to be thicker to compensate for the lower strength of aluminum.
  #78  
Old May 24th 19, 12:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,558
Default Bottle holder

On 5/23/2019 8:52 AM, Duane wrote:

snip

Much simpler to just make sure the bike has a couple of water bottle
mounts when you buy it...


True, but the original poster bought a very inexpensive Huffy, likely at
Walmart. On these bikes they don't have the factory include such
expensive luxuries as bottle mounts.

Now he has to choose from one of many choices:

1. Buy a jig for $50 or so, buy a right-angle drill or close-quarters
drill (or a right angle adapter), buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and
install bottle mounts directly into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain
hole in the bottom bracket.

2. Build a jig or try to drill accurate holes free-hand without a jig,
buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and install bottle mounts directly
into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain hole in the bottom bracket.

3. Use a kluge like hose clamps or cable ties.

4. Buy an accessory that creates water bottle bosses with clamps or
straps that go around the frame tube.

5. Use a handlebar or seat bottle cage mount.

Most people would choose 4 or 5. It would be $5-12 well spent. Most
people would agree with the experts and understand that drilling holes
in their frame is a not a great idea. As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't
know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a
reasonable concept.", though on a sub-$100 bicycle it's probably no big
deal to destroy the frame if you screw up, and you could always use a
clamp that covers up the hole..

  #79  
Old May 24th 19, 02:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,265
Default Bottle holder

On 5/23/2019 7:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/23/2019 5:28 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:49:10 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/22/2019 10:56 PM, sms wrote:
On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Ok, I yield.* A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle
frame.* I
tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill
press or milling
machine.* As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on
an a frame.
Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig
https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/



snip

Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight
and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't
want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to
achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished
frame with a right-angle drill.

One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was
difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit
tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a
small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted
to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted
in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned
along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by
much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and
caused the cage to twist."

Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to
ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in
since you won't be painting the frame afterward.

"don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame."
Why ever not?

"drill bit shifted to the side a little."
With a centerpunch dimple and a drill sharpened to be
symmetric they don't walk.


Ah but... it sounds as though your shop can sharpen a drill bit, but
from what I read here it is a very difficult task that only certain
shops can accomplish :-)

Perhaps the subject got an advert? We can sharpen a drill bit!


Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit??


You'd be surprised. I do it for a couple of guys I know. They act like
it's magic!


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #80  
Old May 24th 19, 02:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,265
Default Bottle holder

On 5/23/2019 7:50 PM, sms wrote:

Most people would agree with the experts...


There are several experts posting here. They disagree with you.

One of your many problems, SMS, is that you define "expert" as "someone
who agrees with SMS."

Very, very few people accept that as a standard.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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