Yikes! Di2

On 12/21/2019 1:35 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 21, 2019 at 9:50:34 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/21/2019 11:40 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 21, 2019 at 8:15:04 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/21/2019 9:35 AM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 2:13:28 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 20 December 2019 13:24:11 UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 5:10:05 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 12/19/2019 1:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 12:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 11:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know
this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables
and attempting to get the tension correct and having to
readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting
properly.

Once you know this stuff, it will be pretty easy - until
they come out with the next "improvement." Then you'll have
to learn it all over again. Meanwhile, the software will
have gone through three updates, each with a different user
interface. The next version of the software won't even run
on whatever computer you had; it may require you to move
everything to your cell phone.

And if and when part of the mechanism breaks, the generation
of equipment you own will no longer be available. Newer
generations will not be compatible. You may be able,
theoretically, to hack something into compatibility, but it
will involve hours of internet searching to find the hack.

All of this will be fine with most of the system's buyers,
because they won't want anything sold more than ten years
ago. And after all, why waste all muscular work pushing a
button? Only a retrogrouch would refuse to use voice command
shifting.

"Alexa, check Google Maps to see the gradient of the next
hill, and check Google Weather to see the speed of the
headwind. Check my blood sugar level and refer to my sleep
record from last night, an choose a good gear for me. Alexa?
Got that? Alexa? Are you there?? Alexa??? Hurry!! ****!!!"

And your shifting system responds:

"I'm sorry, I'm not capable of ****ting. I don't have that
bodily function."



Sorta.
And yet we survived CP/M, C-Basic, Lotus macro language. BASICA, C and
beyond, each because they offered some benefit we valued more than the
learning time.

You forgot PDP8s. Who could ever need more than 12 bits...

No one twists elbows to force sales of new equipment and as long as
fixed gear (since 1885!) remains a viable and popular option, you can't
say 'everyone's buying this new system'. Some are, some aren't, which is
fine by me.


+1

Fixed gear is fine as long as the ground is flat. We used fixed gear
around here to train you to climb in large gears. Then that became too old fashioned.

I know lots of guys and gals who ride fixed gear up hills too.

Cheers

I rode up Mt. Hamilton (in T.K. territory) on a fixed gear a few times.
It's murder coming down. That's why I hated fixed gears for riding
around here. You could pick a nice gear that was good for the hills or
at least manageable in the hills, and then you beat your kidneys to death
riding down or took your feet off the pedals and let them spin around
wildly, something I never liked to do. Fixies don't really make much
sense in a hilly environment.

-- Jay Beattie.



A guy at my office switches to a fixie for winter commute. Says it’s
better in the slush and ice. He comes over Mount Royal and I can’t imagine
how he goes down that with no freewheel.

Brakes?

Brakes slow you, but your cranks still go around -- and if you're trying to make time (or rest) down a hill, you're screwed. I'm not a 200 rpm prodigy, and with long femurs, I'm not that smooth over 120 rpm. I'd be flailing down even a modest descent in a 70 inch gear.

OK, I've never ridden a fixie - but I don't get it.

If you have brakes and you don't want to spin 120 rpm, why not use the
brakes to slow to where you spin 90 rpm? Or 70 rpm?

You do just that, but if you want to go over 20mph down a hill, you have to spin like crazy assuming a 70 inch-ish gear. Fixies are fun or can be fun. I raced track (poorly), so they were what I rode, and back in the 70s early 80s, the coach of the SJBC prescribed fixed gear spinning for off season training. I rode a fixie commuter in California and for my first few years here in Portland, but I found descending too slow and frustrating when I was late for work.

-- Jay Beattie.


+1
Although I use and like mine, it doesn't replace my other
bicycles. If I were in a topologically challenged area like
PDX, a fixie would hold less charm I'm sure.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 08:40:20 -0800 (PST),
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 21, 2019 at 8:15:04 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/21/2019 9:35 AM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 2:13:28 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 20 December 2019 13:24:11 UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 5:10:05 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 12/19/2019 1:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:

No one twists elbows to force sales of new equipment
and as long as fixed gear (since 1885!) remains a
viable and popular option, you can't say 'everyone's
buying this new system'. Some are, some aren't, which
is fine by me.

+1

Fixed gear is fine as long as the ground is flat. We used
fixed gear around here to train you to climb in large
gears. Then that became too old fashioned.

I know lots of guys and gals who ride fixed gear up hills
too.

I rode up Mt. Hamilton (in T.K. territory) on a fixed gear
a few times. It's murder coming down. That's why I hated
fixed gears for riding around here. You could pick a nice
gear that was good for the hills or at least manageable in
the hills, and then you beat your kidneys to death riding
down or took your feet off the pedals and let them spin
around wildly, something I never liked to do. Fixies don't
really make much sense in a hilly environment.

A guy at my office switches to a fixie for winter commute.
Says it???s better in the slush and ice. He comes over
Mount Royal and I can???t imagine how he goes down that with
no freewheel.

Brakes?

Brakes slow you, but your cranks still go around -- and if
you're trying to make time (or rest) down a hill, you're
screwed. I'm not a 200 rpm prodigy, and with long femurs, I'm
not that smooth over 120 rpm. I'd be flailing down even a
modest descent in a 70 inch gear. Mild rollers are O.K.,
though, and like Andrew says, fixies do give you good control
in snow.

Just got back from a short ride on my fixed gear. Checked the
teeth, and saw it's 46x17 -- so about 71 inch gear. On one gentle
downhill I hit 26 mph, and was bouncing all over the place. It
looks like that was about 120 rpm, so I can't even do that
smoothly.

And I've got a front brake, but it really gets tiresome to ride it
on long downhills. Frustrating to scrub off all that energy, and
the hand gets tired rather quickly.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 21, 2019 at 8:15:04 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/21/2019 9:35 AM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 2:13:28 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 20 December 2019 13:24:11 UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 5:10:05 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 12/19/2019 1:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 12:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 11:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know
this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables
and attempting to get the tension correct and having to
readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting
properly.

Once you know this stuff, it will be pretty easy - until
they come out with the next "improvement." Then you'll have
to learn it all over again. Meanwhile, the software will
have gone through three updates, each with a different user
interface. The next version of the software won't even run
on whatever computer you had; it may require you to move
everything to your cell phone.

And if and when part of the mechanism breaks, the generation
of equipment you own will no longer be available. Newer
generations will not be compatible. You may be able,
theoretically, to hack something into compatibility, but it
will involve hours of internet searching to find the hack.

All of this will be fine with most of the system's buyers,
because they won't want anything sold more than ten years
ago. And after all, why waste all muscular work pushing a
button? Only a retrogrouch would refuse to use voice command
shifting.

"Alexa, check Google Maps to see the gradient of the next
hill, and check Google Weather to see the speed of the
headwind. Check my blood sugar level and refer to my sleep
record from last night, an choose a good gear for me. Alexa?
Got that? Alexa? Are you there?? Alexa??? Hurry!! ****!!!"

And your shifting system responds:

"I'm sorry, I'm not capable of ****ting. I don't have that
bodily function."



Sorta.
And yet we survived CP/M, C-Basic, Lotus macro language. BASICA, C and
beyond, each because they offered some benefit we valued more than the
learning time.

You forgot PDP8s. Who could ever need more than 12 bits...

No one twists elbows to force sales of new equipment and as long as
fixed gear (since 1885!) remains a viable and popular option, you can't
say 'everyone's buying this new system'. Some are, some aren't, which is
fine by me.


+1

Fixed gear is fine as long as the ground is flat. We used fixed gear
around here to train you to climb in large gears. Then that became too old fashioned.

I know lots of guys and gals who ride fixed gear up hills too.

Cheers

I rode up Mt. Hamilton (in T.K. territory) on a fixed gear a few times.
It's murder coming down. That's why I hated fixed gears for riding
around here. You could pick a nice gear that was good for the hills or
at least manageable in the hills, and then you beat your kidneys to death
riding down or took your feet off the pedals and let them spin around
wildly, something I never liked to do. Fixies don't really make much
sense in a hilly environment.

-- Jay Beattie.



A guy at my office switches to a fixie for winter commute. Says it’s
better in the slush and ice. He comes over Mount Royal and I can’t imagine
how he goes down that with no freewheel.

Brakes?

Brakes slow you, but your cranks still go around -- and if you're trying
to make time (or rest) down a hill, you're screwed. I'm not a 200 rpm
prodigy, and with long femurs, I'm not that smooth over 120 rpm. I'd be
flailing down even a modest descent in a 70 inch gear. Mild rollers are
O.K., though, and like Andrew says, fixies do give you good control in snow.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yeah without a freewheel I don’t get it. I’ve heard of wheels with a
freewheel on one side that could be flipped.

On 12/22/2019 6:13 AM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 21, 2019 at 8:15:04 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/21/2019 9:35 AM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 2:13:28 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 20 December 2019 13:24:11 UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 5:10:05 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 12/19/2019 1:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 12:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 11:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know
this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables
and attempting to get the tension correct and having to
readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting
properly.

Once you know this stuff, it will be pretty easy - until
they come out with the next "improvement." Then you'll have
to learn it all over again. Meanwhile, the software will
have gone through three updates, each with a different user
interface. The next version of the software won't even run
on whatever computer you had; it may require you to move
everything to your cell phone.

And if and when part of the mechanism breaks, the generation
of equipment you own will no longer be available. Newer
generations will not be compatible. You may be able,
theoretically, to hack something into compatibility, but it
will involve hours of internet searching to find the hack.

All of this will be fine with most of the system's buyers,
because they won't want anything sold more than ten years
ago. And after all, why waste all muscular work pushing a
button? Only a retrogrouch would refuse to use voice command
shifting.

"Alexa, check Google Maps to see the gradient of the next
hill, and check Google Weather to see the speed of the
headwind. Check my blood sugar level and refer to my sleep
record from last night, an choose a good gear for me. Alexa?
Got that? Alexa? Are you there?? Alexa??? Hurry!! ****!!!"

And your shifting system responds:

"I'm sorry, I'm not capable of ****ting. I don't have that
bodily function."



Sorta.
And yet we survived CP/M, C-Basic, Lotus macro language. BASICA, C and
beyond, each because they offered some benefit we valued more than the
learning time.

You forgot PDP8s. Who could ever need more than 12 bits...

No one twists elbows to force sales of new equipment and as long as
fixed gear (since 1885!) remains a viable and popular option, you can't
say 'everyone's buying this new system'. Some are, some aren't, which is
fine by me.


+1

Fixed gear is fine as long as the ground is flat. We used fixed gear
around here to train you to climb in large gears. Then that became too old fashioned.

I know lots of guys and gals who ride fixed gear up hills too.

Cheers

I rode up Mt. Hamilton (in T.K. territory) on a fixed gear a few times.
It's murder coming down. That's why I hated fixed gears for riding
around here. You could pick a nice gear that was good for the hills or
at least manageable in the hills, and then you beat your kidneys to death
riding down or took your feet off the pedals and let them spin around
wildly, something I never liked to do. Fixies don't really make much
sense in a hilly environment.

-- Jay Beattie.



A guy at my office switches to a fixie for winter commute. Says it’s
better in the slush and ice. He comes over Mount Royal and I can’t imagine
how he goes down that with no freewheel.

Brakes?

Brakes slow you, but your cranks still go around -- and if you're trying
to make time (or rest) down a hill, you're screwed. I'm not a 200 rpm
prodigy, and with long femurs, I'm not that smooth over 120 rpm. I'd be
flailing down even a modest descent in a 70 inch gear. Mild rollers are
O.K., though, and like Andrew says, fixies do give you good control in snow.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yeah without a freewheel I don’t get it. I’ve heard of wheels with a
freewheel on one side that could be flipped.


Yes, that's right. Been around for 100 years and once again
popular. But in my experience almost no one flips them.
There are the single speed riders and then there are the
fixed gear riders with not much overlap.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:37:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.

I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness.)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.

The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...

That isn't the way it works.

The stem unit simply orders a shift up or down. In each derailleur there is a micro-processor that could theoretically either set the spacing or even detect a misalignment and correct for it. This would be relatively easy with a simple audio or vibrational hookup.

The "gear centering" adjustment is nothing more than the starting position of the rear derailleur.

But since you want the lowest possible energy drain on the battery the easiest method is to use equal-distance spacing.

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 2:13:28 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 20 December 2019 13:24:11 UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 5:10:05 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 12/19/2019 1:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 12:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 11:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know
this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables
and attempting to get the tension correct and having to
readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting
properly.

Once you know this stuff, it will be pretty easy - until
they come out with the next "improvement." Then you'll have
to learn it all over again. Meanwhile, the software will
have gone through three updates, each with a different user
interface. The next version of the software won't even run
on whatever computer you had; it may require you to move
everything to your cell phone.

And if and when part of the mechanism breaks, the generation
of equipment you own will no longer be available. Newer
generations will not be compatible. You may be able,
theoretically, to hack something into compatibility, but it
will involve hours of internet searching to find the hack.

All of this will be fine with most of the system's buyers,
because they won't want anything sold more than ten years
ago. And after all, why waste all muscular work pushing a
button? Only a retrogrouch would refuse to use voice command
shifting.

"Alexa, check Google Maps to see the gradient of the next
hill, and check Google Weather to see the speed of the
headwind. Check my blood sugar level and refer to my sleep
record from last night, an choose a good gear for me. Alexa?
Got that? Alexa? Are you there?? Alexa??? Hurry!! ****!!!"

And your shifting system responds:

"I'm sorry, I'm not capable of ****ting. I don't have that
bodily function."



Sorta.
And yet we survived CP/M, C-Basic, Lotus macro language. BASICA, C and
beyond, each because they offered some benefit we valued more than the
learning time.

You forgot PDP8s. Who could ever need more than 12 bits...

No one twists elbows to force sales of new equipment and as long as
fixed gear (since 1885!) remains a viable and popular option, you can't
say 'everyone's buying this new system'. Some are, some aren't, which is
fine by me.


+1

Fixed gear is fine as long as the ground is flat. We used fixed gear around here to train you to climb in large gears. Then that became too old fashioned.

I know lots of guys and gals who ride fixed gear up hills too.

Cheers

It is relatively common in San Francisco and people think that they therefore are riding up hills. But the financial district is all down on the flats in the sky-scrapers.

On 12/22/2019 11:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:37:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.

I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness.)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.

The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...

That isn't the way it works.

The stem unit simply orders a shift up or down. In each derailleur there is a micro-processor that could theoretically either set the spacing or even detect a misalignment and correct for it. This would be relatively easy with a simple audio or vibrational hookup.

The "gear centering" adjustment is nothing more than the starting position of the rear derailleur.

But since you want the lowest possible energy drain on the battery the easiest method is to use equal-distance spacing.


Maybe.
Suntour reasoned that since the body return spring has more
force at the low gear end, they increased the sprocket
spacing at the high end. Then again there's no reason for a
servo controlled unit to have a return spring at all.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 09:41:19 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 12/22/2019 6:13 AM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:

[major snip]

Brakes slow you, but your cranks still go around -- and if
you're trying to make time (or rest) down a hill, you're
screwed. I'm not a 200 rpm prodigy, and with long femurs, I'm
not that smooth over 120 rpm. I'd be flailing down even a
modest descent in a 70 inch gear. Mild rollers are O.K.,
though, and like Andrew says, fixies do give you good control
in snow.

Yeah without a freewheel I don????????t get it. I????????ve
heard of wheels with a freewheel on one side that could be
flipped.

Yes, that's right. Been around for 100 years and once again
popular. But in my experience almost no one flips them. There
are the single speed riders and then there are the fixed gear
riders with not much overlap.

Certainly matches my experience; my fixed gear bike has a
flip-flop hub, but I've never flipped it.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

Ted Heise wrote:
On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 09:41:19 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 12/22/2019 6:13 AM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:

[major snip]

Brakes slow you, but your cranks still go around -- and if
you're trying to make time (or rest) down a hill, you're
screwed. I'm not a 200 rpm prodigy, and with long femurs, I'm
not that smooth over 120 rpm. I'd be flailing down even a
modest descent in a 70 inch gear. Mild rollers are O.K.,
though, and like Andrew says, fixies do give you good control
in snow.

Yeah without a freewheel I don????????t get it. I????????ve
heard of wheels with a freewheel on one side that could be
flipped.

Yes, that's right. Been around for 100 years and once again
popular. But in my experience almost no one flips them. There
are the single speed riders and then there are the fixed gear
riders with not much overlap.

Certainly matches my experience; my fixed gear bike has a
flip-flop hub, but I've never flipped it.


Just out of curiosity how do you manage a -16% grade?

On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 2:55:31 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
Ted Heise wrote:
On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 09:41:19 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 12/22/2019 6:13 AM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:

[major snip]

Brakes slow you, but your cranks still go around -- and if
you're trying to make time (or rest) down a hill, you're
screwed. I'm not a 200 rpm prodigy, and with long femurs, I'm
not that smooth over 120 rpm. I'd be flailing down even a
modest descent in a 70 inch gear. Mild rollers are O.K.,
though, and like Andrew says, fixies do give you good control
in snow.

Yeah without a freewheel I don????????t get it. I????????ve
heard of wheels with a freewheel on one side that could be
flipped.

Yes, that's right. Been around for 100 years and once again
popular. But in my experience almost no one flips them. There
are the single speed riders and then there are the fixed gear
riders with not much overlap.

Certainly matches my experience; my fixed gear bike has a
flip-flop hub, but I've never flipped it.


Just out of curiosity how do you manage a -16% grade?

It's the only kind of grade he knows how to handle.