Is there an updated Dynotest somewhere?

On 9/15/2017 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-14 12:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/14/2017 10:26 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
bob prohaska wrote:
Sepp Ruf wrote:

For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to
see a
big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1]
once he
grows sick of the Soubitez.Â* Best price I see is 96 euros a pair
from CNC
Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841

[1]
DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.

It's a bit puzzling how folks seem to excuse poor design in dynamo hubs
when they're considerably more fanatic about optimizing every other
part
of a bicycle.

In particular, the 3 watt standard is utterly archaic. Folks now are
starting to use dynamos to power electronics, and I suspect most would
opt for more than 3 watt lights if useful designs were available.

I still don't understand why high-end builders like Schmidt don't use
salient-pole armatures, which could be constructed from standard motor
laminations (instead of the custom clawpole monolith used now). That
would shorten the iron path dramatically, reducing reluctance, reduce
the length of copper, reducing resistance. The performance gains can
be traded for lighter weight, higher efficiency or higher power.
Every motor builder in the world does it that way, why not dyamo hub
builders? Maybe there _is_ a technical reason, but it certainly isn't
apparent to me. The use of incandescent bulbs may have set the
tradition,
but it's certainly no reason to continue.

At this rate I won't "get sick" of the Soubitez, I'll wear it out.

bob prohaska

Machine theory is a bit of a black art for me, but I suspect that the
"less
optimized" magnetics in hub dynamos provides the extra leakage
inductance
required to make it self regulate into a 12 ohm load. I fully agree
that a
less well regulated output plus a switching regulator could work very
well
with modern electronics.

Is it feasible to use a switching regulator when you've got as much
inductance as a typical hub dynamo?


Yes.


Â* I'd have thought that causes problems.


Nope :-)


But then, I'm not an EE.


If charging a battery plus driving a light (which is the proper setup,
like in a motor vehicle) it is advantageous to run the converter in
"maxiumum power point tracking" or MPPT mode. That is what solar
converters mostly do as well. A small processor dithers the "conversion
factor" (input to output voltage) slightly around while constantly
calculating the output power, indicating whether the maximum power point
is drifting higher, lower, or remains constant. Mostly depending on
riding speed in this case. When the load demand is met, the battery full
and lights at full brightness, it has to back off in the direction of
causing the least amount of mechanical load. The latter isn't a concern
with solar panels.

On a bicycle one would like a few more features, for example an
uphill-disable that sheds the load unless the bus voltage is or becomes
critically low. Another potential feature could be energy harvesting
downhill by maximizing the power output during those times. 3-axis
sensors could help determining such conditions automatically. Endless
possibilities but, of course, there will come a point where it becomes
"technology looking for a home" and more does not make sense.

As usual don't expect to see this at bike shops anytime soon.

You could add speed-based intensity of the light with the load shedding
since when going slowly up hill you need less intensity, plus you want
less load.

Sort of OT but funny: Yesterday I stood at a red traffic light in the
middle of the lane and my road bike started making a wee-wee. A puddle
formed underneath the BB, meaning below where the saddle is ...
embarrassing. Turns out my water bottle had developed a circumferential
hair-crack.

Oh no, now you're going to go off on a tangent about how no one make
sturdy enough water bottles for you.

On 9/15/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-14 12:26, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/14/2017 1:46 AM, bob prohaska wrote:
Sepp Ruf wrote:

For Rob who might experience mental drag uphill from just having to
see a
big, heavy, non-laminated hub slowly revolving in the front wheel, the
smallish Shimano DH-T780-1N, 1.5W 250mA class, might suffice[1] once he
grows sick of the Soubitez.Â* Best price I see is 96 euros a pair from
CNC
Hamburg on ebay, no overseas shipping available, though.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/253093811841

[1]
DRL does not require more than 100 lumens if you get the optics right.

It's a bit puzzling how folks seem to excuse poor design in dynamo hubs
when they're considerably more fanatic about optimizing every other part
of a bicycle.

In particular, the 3 watt standard is utterly archaic. Folks now are
starting to use dynamos to power electronics, and I suspect most would
opt for more than 3 watt lights if useful designs were available.

Well, dynamos are not limited to 3 Watts. As James and others have
discussed, they'll put out more power if presented with bigger loads,
i.e. more resistance.


Ummm, not quite. More resistance doesn't always mean bigger load, it
only does so if you let the voltage rise. For any speed there is a
resistance that will result in a maximum of the delivered electrical
power. That resistance and the maximum power vary with speed.


Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ... They're essentially constant current devices. I
used to occasionally drive two halogen headlamps from my Soubitez roller
dynamo. Others do it with hub dynos. (It doesn't work well with a bottle
dyno, though, because the smaller drive roller is more prone to
slipping.)


What happens is that the current isn't very constant. Many dynamos will
go to 700mA and higher if you put the coals on. That was the reason I
constantly blew light bulbs as a teenager until I finally
"electronicized" my bikes and installed a recharcheable battery.


Second, despite the current fashion for mega-lumen lights, I've seen no
evidence that road cyclists need them, and I've seen the disadvantages.
IME, a good B&M LED headlight lights up a stop sign nearly 1/4 mile way.
It also illuminates the road very well; and with ever-improving LEDs,
the current models are probably better than the ones I own.

And it's a little ironic that the mega-lumen fans choose to ignore poor
optical design in their headlights, leading to inferior illumination
while blinding others. I think that's a bigger problem than a few
percent less theoretical efficiency in the dynamo.


There are people who disagree with you on that, such a yours truly.


Finally, there are devices which will power a phone or a GPS unit from a
hub dyno. Personally, I'd prefer to limit people from (say) playing
their stereo speakers while they ride!


My MP3 player is really helpful when riding boring stretches of prairie
on the MTB or long lone climbs on the road bike. Plus it helps drown out
the constant din of traffic when riding on roads. I used it for 2-1/2h
of the 4h ride yesterday.

And of course the fact that you're charging a phone doesn't meen that
you're using it while you're riding.

While the American River Trail is pretty quiet, there's some MUPs around
here that are noisy from traffic. Los Gatos Creek Trail is next to CA 17
for a portion of it, and Stevens Creek Trail is near CA 85 for part of it.

On 2017-09-15 18:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/15/2017 7:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-15 15:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/15/2017 4:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-15 12:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:

The variation in brightess from, say, 6 mph to 20+ mph isn't really
that
great. But more important, when a person is riding uphill slowly, they
don't need to see 1/4 mile ahead. Having a headlight that's slightly
dimmer uphill is no disadvantage.


Until the soused redneck in his dilapidated pickup truck comes tearing
along and doesn't see you in time.

Yeah, yeah - "Danger! Danger!"


One of them just killed another cyclist here, from behind. This time
it was an off-duty police office one the bike who died. Now you can
stick you head back into the sand and pretend it doesn't happen.

I thought we were talking about a drunk crossing to the wrong side of
the road and hitting a person head-on because he was climbing a hill
with a dynamo headlight. Don't pretend that's what happened.


I didn't pretend but yes, that has also happened.


Yes, I know that cyclists get killed by cars. That happens about 750
times per year. I also know that pedestrians get killed by cars, about
4500 per year, and motorists get killed in cars, about 35,000 per year.
Don't stick your head in the sand, Joerg!


Again, it's not only about those killed but also about a much larger
number that survives. Some of which with what the med folks call
life-changing injuries.


Also: How often does that fantasy disaster happen anyway? Perhaps once
in 500 million miles of riding? Just because you can imagine something,
Joerg, it doesn't mean it's likely to happen.


Roughly every month in NorCal.

Every month some slow-climbing cyclist gets run over because his dynamo
light is too dim? Baloney.


No, cyclists get run over. Doesn't matter whether hill or not. A vehicle
that travels at 1/4 the speed of motorized traffic or less is always at
higher risk in the lane than traffic going at same speed. The risk goes
up as the speed goes down.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-09-15 19:48, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 13:01:59 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-09-15 12:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/15/2017 2:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-15 11:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:


[...]

... This system is permanently mounted on the
bike, just like the corresponding components on a car. It's ready at the
flick of a switch and it's extremely reliable, requiring not even
tending to batteries.


How does it keep the lights at full brightness during a long uphill
slog? Like some of these sections:

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/5041564

The variation in brightess from, say, 6 mph to 20+ mph isn't really that
great. But more important, when a person is riding uphill slowly, they
don't need to see 1/4 mile ahead. Having a headlight that's slightly
dimmer uphill is no disadvantage.


Until the soused redneck in his dilapidated pickup truck comes tearing
along and doesn't see you in time.

But why should a "red neck" driving a pickup be soused?
any more than a bicyclist?

After all:
https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...eaths/?mcubz=1
Some 21 percent of autopsies for New York City bicyclists who died
within three hours of their accidents detected alcohol in the body,
according to a Department of Health and Mental Hygiene study that
examined fatal bicycling accidents in New York City from 1996 to 2005.
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/pe...facts/bicycles
Among bicyclists ages 16 and older who were killed in 2015, 23 percent
had blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) at or above 0.08 percent.
http://www.bhsi.org/alcohol.htm
Blood alcohol levels were estimated from medical records, visits to
crash sites and testing of 342 passing bicyclists for breath alcohol.
At the .08 grams/deciliter level, legally drunk in most states, the
odds of a fatal or serious injury rose by 2,000 per cent. The risk
rose as alcohol rose, beginning at a 600 per cent increase if the
blood level was only .02 grams/deciliter, equivalent to one drink. The
.08 level is typically associated with four to five drinks.

Sounds like it isn't the Redneck we have to look out for it is the
drunken bicyclist.


Drunken cyclists are a problem, especially since many people resort to a
bicycle after losing their license due to DUI and then they don't really
know how to handle a bicycle in traffic.

However, I can't remember any of the hit-from-behind or
hit-from-the-front fatal accidents here reported as being caused by a
drunken cyclists. They were caused by drunken motorists, reckless ones,
aggressive ones and people fleeing from police or a crime scene in a car.

No matter, Frank can lament all day long, I know for a fact that since I
have bright lights front and back the number of close calls has
substantially dropped. So as far as lighting is concerned, mission
accomplished.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 7:34:30 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-15 18:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/15/2017 7:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-15 15:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/15/2017 4:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-15 12:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:

The variation in brightess from, say, 6 mph to 20+ mph isn't really
that
great. But more important, when a person is riding uphill slowly, they
don't need to see 1/4 mile ahead. Having a headlight that's slightly
dimmer uphill is no disadvantage.


Until the soused redneck in his dilapidated pickup truck comes tearing
along and doesn't see you in time.

Yeah, yeah - "Danger! Danger!"


One of them just killed another cyclist here, from behind. This time
it was an off-duty police office one the bike who died. Now you can
stick you head back into the sand and pretend it doesn't happen.

I thought we were talking about a drunk crossing to the wrong side of
the road and hitting a person head-on because he was climbing a hill
with a dynamo headlight. Don't pretend that's what happened.


I didn't pretend but yes, that has also happened.


Yes, I know that cyclists get killed by cars. That happens about 750
times per year. I also know that pedestrians get killed by cars, about
4500 per year, and motorists get killed in cars, about 35,000 per year.
Don't stick your head in the sand, Joerg!


Again, it's not only about those killed but also about a much larger
number that survives. Some of which with what the med folks call
life-changing injuries.


Also: How often does that fantasy disaster happen anyway? Perhaps once
in 500 million miles of riding? Just because you can imagine something,
Joerg, it doesn't mean it's likely to happen.


Roughly every month in NorCal.

Every month some slow-climbing cyclist gets run over because his dynamo
light is too dim? Baloney.


No, cyclists get run over. Doesn't matter whether hill or not. A vehicle
that travels at 1/4 the speed of motorized traffic or less is always at
higher risk in the lane than traffic going at same speed. The risk goes
up as the speed goes down.

Doesn't matter whether the cyclist has a light or not. Doesn't matter whether the cyclist is in bed or watching TV. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...e_in_sout.html Really, drunks will kill you in your dreams. And they're everywhere -- under your skin, whispering in your ear ". . . Joerg . . . Joerg . . . I'm coming for you."

The only thing that will keep them away is a carbon-arc search light and an exorcism. You can get the light from Deal Extreme. Order today -- and talk to a Catholic priest. If you're a Lutheran, you're f*****. Might as well feed yourself to the mountain lions.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2017-09-16 06:57, sms wrote:
On 9/15/2017 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:

[...]


If charging a battery plus driving a light (which is the proper setup,
like in a motor vehicle) it is advantageous to run the converter in
"maxiumum power point tracking" or MPPT mode. That is what solar
converters mostly do as well. A small processor dithers the
"conversion factor" (input to output voltage) slightly around while
constantly calculating the output power, indicating whether the
maximum power point is drifting higher, lower, or remains constant.
Mostly depending on riding speed in this case. When the load demand is
met, the battery full and lights at full brightness, it has to back
off in the direction of causing the least amount of mechanical load.
The latter isn't a concern with solar panels.

On a bicycle one would like a few more features, for example an
uphill-disable that sheds the load unless the bus voltage is or
becomes critically low. Another potential feature could be energy
harvesting downhill by maximizing the power output during those times.
3-axis sensors could help determining such conditions automatically.
Endless possibilities but, of course, there will come a point where it
becomes "technology looking for a home" and more does not make sense.

As usual don't expect to see this at bike shops anytime soon.

You could add speed-based intensity of the light with the load shedding
since when going slowly up hill you need less intensity, plus you want
less load.


On a steep uphill I sure want my rear light as bright as it gets. On
winding uphill stretches the risk of being seen too late is highest.

As for speed input a hub dynamo provides that information because it
delivers AC. So if bikes would have a real electrical system (though
it's probably an illusion that ever happens ...) the ones with hub
dynamos would no longer need the old magnetic pickup at the fork.


Sort of OT but funny: Yesterday I stood at a red traffic light in the
middle of the lane and my road bike started making a wee-wee. A puddle
formed underneath the BB, meaning below where the saddle is ...
embarrassing. Turns out my water bottle had developed a
circumferential hair-crack.

Oh no, now you're going to go off on a tangent about how no one make
sturdy enough water bottles for you.


To some extent true, the usually aren't MTB-proof. But cheap enough. The
ones riding in the panniers are all stainless steel.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-09-16 07:01, sms wrote:
On 9/15/2017 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-14 12:26, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

Finally, there are devices which will power a phone or a GPS unit from a
hub dyno. Personally, I'd prefer to limit people from (say) playing
their stereo speakers while they ride!


My MP3 player is really helpful when riding boring stretches of
prairie on the MTB or long lone climbs on the road bike. Plus it helps
drown out the constant din of traffic when riding on roads. I used it
for 2-1/2h of the 4h ride yesterday.

And of course the fact that you're charging a phone doesn't meen that
you're using it while you're riding.


If I had a smart phone I'd be running it all the time, it would become
the "cycling computer" and the map. Else I wouldn't really know what I'd
need a smart phone for. My tiny "old-style" cell phone doesn't need
charging since it runs over 100h per charge in receive-only mode. I use
30 "free" minutes per month and most of those keep piling up and up.


While the American River Trail is pretty quiet, there's some MUPs around
here that are noisy from traffic. Los Gatos Creek Trail is next to CA 17
for a portion of it, and Stevens Creek Trail is near CA 85 for part of it.


Luckily most of ours aren't noisy, far enough away from traffic. My
favorites are the singletrack paths where when you stop all you hear is
the wind, the occasional call of an animal and maybe an airlines flying
by at 40000ft.

The only really noisy bike path I know around here is the one from
Sacramento to Davis because it runs right along I-80:

http://www.davisenterprise.com/files...W-1024x682.jpg

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-09-16 07:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 7:34:30 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-15 18:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/15/2017 7:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-15 15:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

Also: How often does that fantasy disaster happen anyway?
Perhaps once in 500 million miles of riding? Just because you
can imagine something, Joerg, it doesn't mean it's likely to
happen.


Roughly every month in NorCal.

Every month some slow-climbing cyclist gets run over because his
dynamo light is too dim? Baloney.


No, cyclists get run over. Doesn't matter whether hill or not. A
vehicle that travels at 1/4 the speed of motorized traffic or less
is always at higher risk in the lane than traffic going at same
speed. The risk goes up as the speed goes down.

Doesn't matter whether the cyclist has a light or not. Doesn't matter
whether the cyclist is in bed or watching TV.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...e_in_sout.html
Really, drunks will kill you in your dreams. And they're everywhere
-- under your skin, whispering in your ear ". . . Joerg . . . Joerg .
. . I'm coming for you."


There could also be a meteorite hit on the MUP. IIRC that almost
happened ion Chelyabinsk, in Russia.

Hopefully there was no MUP going through here :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlVL8JRn9BI


The only thing that will keep them away is a carbon-arc search light
and an exorcism. You can get the light from Deal Extreme. Order today
-- and talk to a Catholic priest. If you're a Lutheran, you're
f*****. Might as well feed yourself to the mountain lions.


Well, I am a Lutheran so I guess that's not going to work :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 9/16/2017 10:34 AM, Joerg wrote:

No, cyclists get run over. Doesn't matter whether hill or not. A vehicle
that travels at 1/4 the speed of motorized traffic or less is always at
higher risk in the lane than traffic going at same speed. The risk goes
up as the speed goes down.

More bull****, Joerg, or at least, more ignorance of data.

Motorcyclists have a fatality per hour rate roughly 30 times higher than
bicyclists. You can't say that risk goes up as speed goes down.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/16/2017 10:46 AM, Joerg wrote:

No matter, Frank can lament all day long, I know for a fact that since I
have bright lights front and back the number of close calls has
substantially dropped. So as far as lighting is concerned, mission
accomplished.

And I can say precisely the same thing about my learning to ride more
toward lane center, instead of at the road edge.

I suppose if you are terrified enough to hide near the gutter, you may
have a lot of close calls. That's pretty common. And I suppose glaring
bright lights might reduce those gutter-induced close calls a bit. But
riding more prominently as permitted by law does more, even though you
refuse to understand this.

See http://cyclingsavvy.org/2011/05/i-am-no-road-warrior/

and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5V...ature=youtu.be


--
- Frank Krygowski