Crankshaft end tapers.

AMuzi wrote:
On 6/26/2020 10:57 AM, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Is it possible that there are more than one kind of taper?
I recently had to replace the bottom bracket bearings on the
missus' Italian bike. I had to get one a little wider (70mm,
I think) and of smaller diameter than most; but I got a
Shimano one that fitted correctly.* But since then, the LH
pedal bolt has tended to slacken slowly, and the crank makes
an embarrassing creaking noise int time with the pedalling
effort oscillating from left to right.* Is it possible that
the Ofmega pedals fitted to it are not fitting the taper
correctly?* No play can be felt by hand, and they are still
almost impossible to remove without lots of unpleasant
hammering with a tapered car balljoint splitter.

Speaking of which, is there a tool that can get pedals off
easily?* I had a tool that screwed into the side of the
pedal, but instead of pulling the pedal off, it just pulled
out all the alloy thread that it was supposed to fit into.
Again, is that because the Ofmega pedals have a different
thread there?

There are two common sections of the standard crank taper and they do
not fit each other:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/3SPINDLE.JPG

Your Ofmega cranks require the rightmost format. What you bought is
shown center. (also, your original was asymmetric so now either your
chainline is askew or the left crank is vary far outboard or both)

Your Ofmega crank formerly used the most common extractor, 22x1mm which
are cheap and ubiquitous. (the other sizes 23.0 and 23.35mm are obsolete
and wouldn't start in your crank anyway. No one who has those tools
would have lent it to you)* Your current format is 'stripped' in that
the threads are missing. Next time seat the tool fully in the crank arm
on clean threads before attempting removal.

Once you acquire the correct spindle, there's no reason not to install
that damaged arm, just note that future removal may be destructive.* If
there's a competent shop near you a TA oversize extractor may be fitted
but that may be more expensive than a replacement arm (many other brands
interchange, Campagnolo, Sugino Mity, SR Royal, original New Dura Ace
#7400, Sugino 75, Miche, Zeus, etc. Not Shimano current products not
Sugino XD not made in china)

People carp and bitch about mouting cranks on dry tapers or wet but
whichever version of heresy you follow, lubricate your fastener
regardless and torque to 35nm.


I did find some original parts on eBay, but they were quite expensive.
The missus is continually threatening to get a new bike, and I thought
the Shimano crank (especially being sealed) was a more satisfactory
option for the price. She does not get attached to old things like I do.

The original problem was that the crank had been left unmaintained for
decades (ever since she bought it as a girl, really). One day, I tried
to ride it to see if I could work out the cause of a noise she was
complaining about, and felt a lot of movement in the crank. After
taking up the slack, the lock ring was no longer able to be fitted,
since there was not enough thread for it to bite onto. While the cups
were okay, the cones were quite pitted, so I did not think that
replacing the bearings would suffice. Maybe it's possible to fit a ring
'behind' the cup to move it out again?

Anyway, it seems like I will need to do some more precise measuring of
the old crank bits (which I have cleaned and kept for reference).

Tosspot wrote:
On 26/06/2020 17:57, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Is it possible that there are more than one kind of taper?Â* I
recently had to replace the bottom bracket bearings on the missus'
Italian bike. I had to get one a little wider (70mm, I think) and of
smaller diameter than most; but I got a Shimano one that fitted
correctly.Â* But since then, the LH pedal bolt has tended to slacken
slowly, and the crank makes an embarrassing creaking noise int time
with the pedalling effort oscillating from left to right.Â* Is it
possible that the Ofmega pedals fitted to it are not fitting the
taper correctly?Â* No play can be felt by hand, and they are still
almost impossible to remove without lots of unpleasant hammering with
a tapered car balljoint splitter.

Speaking of which, is there a tool that can get pedals off easily?Â* I
Â*had a tool that screwed into the side of the pedal, but instead of
pulling the pedal off, it just pulled out all the alloy thread that
it was supposed to fit into.Â* Again, is that because the Ofmega
pedals have a different thread there?

Welcome to JIS vs ISO.Â* Chuck in the towel and move to JIS.Â* I fought it
for a few years, I didn't win -(

Hm. Well, I am a bit of an old fuddy-duddy. I will now need to find out
what JIS is. Working on old motorbikes, it's even taken me a long time
to get used to metrication. If it wasn't for having to fix the car
every now and then, I would never have had to.

On Saturday, 27 June 2020 07:49:50 UTC-4, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Tosspot wrote:
On 26/06/2020 17:57, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Is it possible that there are more than one kind of taper?Â* I
recently had to replace the bottom bracket bearings on the missus'
Italian bike. I had to get one a little wider (70mm, I think) and of
smaller diameter than most; but I got a Shimano one that fitted
correctly.Â* But since then, the LH pedal bolt has tended to slacken
slowly, and the crank makes an embarrassing creaking noise int time
with the pedalling effort oscillating from left to right.Â* Is it
possible that the Ofmega pedals fitted to it are not fitting the
taper correctly?Â* No play can be felt by hand, and they are still
almost impossible to remove without lots of unpleasant hammering with
a tapered car balljoint splitter.

Speaking of which, is there a tool that can get pedals off easily?Â* I
Â*had a tool that screwed into the side of the pedal, but instead of
pulling the pedal off, it just pulled out all the alloy thread that
it was supposed to fit into.Â* Again, is that because the Ofmega
pedals have a different thread there?

Welcome to JIS vs ISO.Â* Chuck in the towel and move to JIS.Â* I fought it
for a few years, I didn't win -(

Hm. Well, I am a bit of an old fuddy-duddy. I will now need to find out
what JIS is. Working on old motorbikes, it's even taken me a long time
to get used to metrication. If it wasn't for having to fix the car
every now and then, I would never have had to.

Read the two links that I posted after your first post in this thread.

Cheers

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 27 June 2020 07:49:50 UTC-4, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Tosspot wrote:
On 26/06/2020 17:57, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Is it possible that there are more than one kind of taper?Â* I
recently had to replace the bottom bracket bearings on the missus'
Italian bike. I had to get one a little wider (70mm, I think) and of
smaller diameter than most; but I got a Shimano one that fitted
correctly.Â* But since then, the LH pedal bolt has tended to slacken
slowly, and the crank makes an embarrassing creaking noise int time
with the pedalling effort oscillating from left to right.Â* Is it
possible that the Ofmega pedals fitted to it are not fitting the
taper correctly?Â* No play can be felt by hand, and they are still
almost impossible to remove without lots of unpleasant hammering with
a tapered car balljoint splitter.

Speaking of which, is there a tool that can get pedals off easily?Â* I
Â*had a tool that screwed into the side of the pedal, but instead of
pulling the pedal off, it just pulled out all the alloy thread that
it was supposed to fit into.Â* Again, is that because the Ofmega
pedals have a different thread there?

Welcome to JIS vs ISO.Â* Chuck in the towel and move to JIS.Â* I fought it
for a few years, I didn't win -(

Hm. Well, I am a bit of an old fuddy-duddy. I will now need to find out
what JIS is. Working on old motorbikes, it's even taken me a long time
to get used to metrication. If it wasn't for having to fix the car
every now and then, I would never have had to.

Read the two links that I posted after your first post in this thread.

Cheers


Well, this bit is certainly relevant for me:

"There are no modern bottom brackets that work with old Ofmega/Avocet
cranks."

What we have here is Ofmega, so it looks like I will need to get NOS
parts from somewhere.

Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 6/26/2020 10:57 AM, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Is it possible that there are more than one kind of taper?
I recently had to replace the bottom bracket bearings on the
missus' Italian bike. I had to get one a little wider (70mm,
I think) and of smaller diameter than most; but I got a
Shimano one that fitted correctly.* But since then, the LH
pedal bolt has tended to slacken slowly, and the crank makes
an embarrassing creaking noise int time with the pedalling
effort oscillating from left to right.* Is it possible that
the Ofmega pedals fitted to it are not fitting the taper
correctly?* No play can be felt by hand, and they are still
almost impossible to remove without lots of unpleasant
hammering with a tapered car balljoint splitter.

Speaking of which, is there a tool that can get pedals off
easily?* I had a tool that screwed into the side of the
pedal, but instead of pulling the pedal off, it just pulled
out all the alloy thread that it was supposed to fit into.
Again, is that because the Ofmega pedals have a different
thread there?

There are two common sections of the standard crank taper and they do
not fit each other:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/3SPINDLE.JPG

Your Ofmega cranks require the rightmost format. What you bought is
shown center. (also, your original was asymmetric so now either your
chainline is askew or the left crank is vary far outboard or both)

Your Ofmega crank formerly used the most common extractor, 22x1mm
which are cheap and ubiquitous. (the other sizes 23.0 and 23.35mm are
obsolete and wouldn't start in your crank anyway. No one who has those
tools would have lent it to you)* Your current format is 'stripped' in
that the threads are missing. Next time seat the tool fully in the
crank arm on clean threads before attempting removal.

Once you acquire the correct spindle, there's no reason not to install
that damaged arm, just note that future removal may be destructive.
If there's a competent shop near you a TA oversize extractor may be
fitted but that may be more expensive than a replacement arm (many
other brands interchange, Campagnolo, Sugino Mity, SR Royal, original
New Dura Ace #7400, Sugino 75, Miche, Zeus, etc. Not Shimano current
products not Sugino XD not made in china)

People carp and bitch about mouting cranks on dry tapers or wet but
whichever version of heresy you follow, lubricate your fastener
regardless and torque to 35nm.


I did find some original parts on eBay, but they were quite expensive.
The missus is continually threatening to get a new bike, and I thought
the Shimano crank (especially being sealed) was a more satisfactory
option for the price.* She does not get attached to old things like I do.

The original problem was that the crank had been left unmaintained for
decades (ever since she bought it as a girl, really).* One day, I tried
to ride it to see if I could work out the cause of a noise she was
complaining about, and felt a lot of movement in the crank.* After
taking up the slack, the lock ring was no longer able to be fitted,
since there was not enough thread for it to bite onto.* While the cups
were okay, the cones were quite pitted, so I did not think that
replacing the bearings would suffice.* Maybe it's possible to fit a ring
'behind' the cup to move it out again?

Anyway, it seems like I will need to do some more precise measuring of
the old crank bits (which I have cleaned and kept for reference).

Actually, I 'misremembered' the bit about the locking ring. The problem
was not that there was not enough thread - it was simply that it was
damaged and I couldn't start it on the thread again. I still have the
old one, and (looking at it on a flat surface) it is quite bent.

Maybe if I can get a new locking ring, and some new bearing sets, it
will be adequate?

On 6/27/2020 7:08 AM, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 27 June 2020 07:49:50 UTC-4, Dan S. MacAbre
wrote:
Tosspot wrote:
On 26/06/2020 17:57, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Is it possible that there are more than one kind of
taper? I
recently had to replace the bottom bracket bearings on
the missus'
Italian bike. I had to get one a little wider (70mm, I
think) and of
smaller diameter than most; but I got a Shimano one
that fitted
correctly. But since then, the LH pedal bolt has
tended to slacken
slowly, and the crank makes an embarrassing creaking
noise int time
with the pedalling effort oscillating from left to
right. Is it
possible that the Ofmega pedals fitted to it are not
fitting the
taper correctly? No play can be felt by hand, and
they are still
almost impossible to remove without lots of unpleasant
hammering with
a tapered car balljoint splitter.

Speaking of which, is there a tool that can get pedals
off easily? I
 had a tool that screwed into the side of the pedal,
but instead of
pulling the pedal off, it just pulled out all the alloy
thread that
it was supposed to fit into. Again, is that because
the Ofmega
pedals have a different thread there?

Welcome to JIS vs ISO. Chuck in the towel and move to
JIS. I fought it
for a few years, I didn't win -(

Hm. Well, I am a bit of an old fuddy-duddy. I will now
need to find out
what JIS is. Working on old motorbikes, it's even taken
me a long time
to get used to metrication. If it wasn't for having to
fix the car
every now and then, I would never have had to.

Read the two links that I posted after your first post in
this thread.

Cheers


Well, this bit is certainly relevant for me:

"There are no modern bottom brackets that work with old
Ofmega/Avocet cranks."

What we have here is Ofmega, so it looks like I will need to
get NOS parts from somewhere.

Phil Wood still produces their classic Phil #2 USA made
crank bearing assembly for that application, same as 1971
and as current as this morning:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/WFDJH9.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2020 7:08 AM, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 27 June 2020 07:49:50 UTC-4, Dan S. MacAbre
wrote:
Tosspot wrote:
On 26/06/2020 17:57, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Is it possible that there are more than one kind of
taper?Â* I
recently had to replace the bottom bracket bearings on
the missus'
Italian bike. I had to get one a little wider (70mm, I
think) and of
smaller diameter than most; but I got a Shimano one
that fitted
correctly.Â* But since then, the LH pedal bolt has
tended to slacken
slowly, and the crank makes an embarrassing creaking
noise int time
with the pedalling effort oscillating from left to
right.Â* Is it
possible that the Ofmega pedals fitted to it are not
fitting the
taper correctly?Â* No play can be felt by hand, and
they are still
almost impossible to remove without lots of unpleasant
hammering with
a tapered car balljoint splitter.

Speaking of which, is there a tool that can get pedals
off easily?Â* I
*Â had a tool that screwed into the side of the pedal,
but instead of
pulling the pedal off, it just pulled out all the alloy
thread that
it was supposed to fit into.Â* Again, is that because
the Ofmega
pedals have a different thread there?

Welcome to JIS vs ISO.Â* Chuck in the towel and move to
JIS.Â* I fought it
for a few years, I didn't win -(

Hm. Well, I am a bit of an old fuddy-duddy.* I will now
need to find out
what JIS is.* Working on old motorbikes, it's even taken
me a long time
to get used to metrication.* If it wasn't for having to
fix the car
every now and then, I would never have had to.

Read the two links that I posted after your first post in
this thread.

Cheers


Well, this bit is certainly relevant for me:

"There are no modern bottom brackets that work with old
Ofmega/Avocet cranks."

What we have here is Ofmega, so it looks like I will need to
get NOS parts from somewhere.

Phil Wood still produces their classic Phil #2 USA made crank bearing
assembly for that application, same as 1971 and as current as this morning:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/WFDJH9.JPG


Thanks. If I'm to do this properly, I'll have to look for things like
that. I thought I was lucky to find the Shimano thing that fitted, but
it seems to have had unintended consequences.

On 6/27/2020 9:55 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2020 7:08 AM, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:

Well, this bit is certainly relevant for me:

"There are no modern bottom brackets that work with old
Ofmega/Avocet cranks."

What we have here is Ofmega, so it looks like I will need to
get NOS parts from somewhere.

Phil Wood still produces their classic Phil #2 USA made crank bearing
assembly for that application, same as 1971 and as current as this morning:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/WFDJH9.JPG

Do I remember correctly that Phil bottom brackets require a unique tool?

I own one of the tools, although I've never owned a Phil bottom bracket.
I think I got it for free when a bike shop closed down.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/27/2020 3:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2020 9:55 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2020 7:08 AM, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:

Well, this bit is certainly relevant for me:

"There are no modern bottom brackets that work with old
Ofmega/Avocet cranks."

What we have here is Ofmega, so it looks like I will need to
get NOS parts from somewhere.

Phil Wood still produces their classic Phil #2 USA made
crank bearing assembly for that application, same as 1971
and as current as this morning:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/WFDJH9.JPG

Do I remember correctly that Phil bottom brackets require a
unique tool?

I own one of the tools, although I've never owned a Phil
bottom bracket. I think I got it for free when a bike shop
closed down.


Phil spline BB tool is shown in that snapshot with the RH
mounting ring (note red band for reverse thread). There are
two versions of that tool:

https://phil-wood-co.myshopify.com/p...iant=552719525

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/27/2020 4:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2020 3:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2020 9:55 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/27/2020 7:08 AM, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:

Well, this bit is certainly relevant for me:

"There are no modern bottom brackets that work with old
Ofmega/Avocet cranks."

What we have here is Ofmega, so it looks like I will need to
get NOS parts from somewhere.

Phil Wood still produces their classic Phil #2 USA made
crank bearing assembly for that application, same as 1971
and as current as this morning:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/WFDJH9.JPG

Do I remember correctly that Phil bottom brackets require a
unique tool?

I own one of the tools, although I've never owned a Phil
bottom bracket. I think I got it for free when a bike shop
closed down.


Phil spline BB tool is shown in that snapshot with the RH mounting ring
(note red band for reverse thread). There are two versions of that tool:

https://phil-wood-co.myshopify.com/p...iant=552719525

I've got the long handled one.


--
- Frank Krygowski