#101
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Dry lube?
On Fri, 4 May 2018 15:43:16 +1000, James
wrote: On 04/05/18 02:28, wrote: I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies Indeed. I couldn't think of anything worse than having to put a drop of expensive wax in solvent solution on each chain link before each ride. What a ritual! And then being a careful sort of bloke one should go back over the entire chain to ensure that no links had been skipped :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
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#102
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Dry lube?
On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:49:52 AM UTC+2, sms wrote:
On 5/3/2018 9:28 AM, wrote: snip I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies It's not rocket science. You want to get the dirt off and the lubricant in. There are many ways to accomplish this, of various difficulty and expense. Every year at Interbike there must be twenty companies with the latest and greatest chain cleaner and chain lubricant, but in essence it's all repackaging of inexpensive solvents and lubricants into small bottles with fancy names. For cleaning, a non-water-based solvent like kerosene is as good as any of these fancy cleaners. Diesel fuel also works fine. Just avoid water based cleaners like Simple Green. For lubrication, as long as you're not using a solid lubricant that doesn't quickly get displaced, or a very thin lubricant that doesn't stay between pins and rollers, there's no upside in using a high cost lubricant over standard weight, non-detergent oil (for lubrication by soaking). For on-bike lubrication, the thin carrier of motorcycle chain lube allows the lubricant to penetrate between pins and rollers, then the carrier evaporates. SAE 30 Chain Oil, 1 gallon, $8.48: https://www.walmart.com/ip/16795133 Kerosene, 1 gallon, $8.75 https://www.walmart.com/ip/51741742 PJ-1 Chain Lube, 17 ounces $18.17 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y Park Chain Cleaner, $24.65 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00094CWA8 I recall the two complaints about chain cleaning tools: 1. They splatter solvent everywhere 2. The solvent gets dirty really fast The first issue has largely been solved, there is some dripping but nothing that can't be contained. The second issue is not an issue at all. You must repeatedly replace the dirty solvent with clean solvent until it runs clear. A dirty chain might require five or more solvent changes since the quantity of solvent in these devices is very small. Like many people here, I went through the hot paraffin waxing stage. It's a lot of work for not very good results, and all the experts agree that it's not really a good idea. I know that now most people mix an oil-based lubricant in with the wax to solve at least some of the issues. I wonder what busy bicycle shops use for cleaning and lubricating chains. I doubt if they remove chains from bikes to clean and lubricate them. I know one person who told me about a shop he worked at and how they had a tank of solvent that was pumped into a chain cleaning device with dirty solvent coming out, but I have never seen such a commercial product and I think that that shop just modified a regular chain cleaner in order to save time. Yes it is very simple: - keeping the grit out for durability and, - keeping the chain lubed for efficiency, - all the above in the minimum amount of time. Lou |
#103
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Dry lube?
On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 7:43:21 AM UTC+2, James wrote:
On 04/05/18 02:28, wrote: I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies Indeed. I couldn't think of anything worse than having to put a drop of expensive wax in solvent solution on each chain link before each ride. What a ritual! -- JS Before each ride? Lubing the chain like this takes 1-2 minutes. Less time than taking the chain of the bike and putting in on again. Everyone is entitled to his own ritual. Lou |
#104
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Dry lube?
On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 8:53:24 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 4 May 2018 15:43:16 +1000, James wrote: On 04/05/18 02:28, wrote: I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies Indeed. I couldn't think of anything worse than having to put a drop of expensive wax in solvent solution on each chain link before each ride. What a ritual! And then being a careful sort of bloke one should go back over the entire chain to ensure that no links had been skipped :-) -- Cheers, John B. You start with the masterlink or at the link where the chain is put together with the special pin provided with the chain. Lou |
#106
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Dry lube?
On Thu, 3 May 2018 16:49:48 -0700,
sms wrote: On 5/3/2018 9:28 AM, wrote: snip I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies It's not rocket science. You want to get the dirt off and the lubricant in. There are many ways to accomplish this, of various difficulty and expense. Like many people here, I went through the hot paraffin waxing stage. It's a lot of work for not very good results Recognizing the topic has probably been hashed and rehashed here many times, I'd be interested in hearing more about the "not very good results" you mention. I've used Gulfwax on my bike chains for over 20 years now. For each bike I keep two chains. I generally get between 500 to 1000 miles before they need reapplication. I just put the pot of wax (no oil added) on the stove, and bring it up to just over 200 degrees F (so any water will boil off). One by one I immerse each chain and stir it around for a minute or two, then fish it out and lat it on newspaper. Once they are cool enough to handle, I put one on the bike and fold the other up in a baggy. I do have a fixed gear bike I use for commuting and knocking around, and like someone else posted recently I just drip a small bit of motor oil on that chain occasionally. Once every few years or so, I take the chain off and clean it pretty well. -- Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA |
#107
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Dry lube?
On 5/3/2018 10:43 PM, James wrote:
On 04/05/18 02:28, wrote: I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies Indeed.Â* I couldn't think of anything worse than having to put a drop of expensive wax in solvent solution on each chain link before each ride. What a ritual! True. And you're assuming that the wax and solvent is not just making it onto the chain's surface. I've never tried hot waxing of a chain on the bike using a torch. I don't know how you'd do such a thing with solvent or lubricant mixed in. Perhaps there are bars of paraffin with solvent already mixed in. Save the hot wax for skis. I do this all the time on my X-C skis. Maybe I should try putting some lubricant on them to go faster. |
#108
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Dry lube?
On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:22:51 PM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 4 May 2018 02:24:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:49:52 AM UTC+2, sms wrote: On 5/3/2018 9:28 AM, wrote: snip I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies It's not rocket science. You want to get the dirt off and the lubricant in. There are many ways to accomplish this, of various difficulty and expense. Every year at Interbike there must be twenty companies with the latest and greatest chain cleaner and chain lubricant, but in essence it's all repackaging of inexpensive solvents and lubricants into small bottles with fancy names. For cleaning, a non-water-based solvent like kerosene is as good as any of these fancy cleaners. Diesel fuel also works fine. Just avoid water based cleaners like Simple Green. For lubrication, as long as you're not using a solid lubricant that doesn't quickly get displaced, or a very thin lubricant that doesn't stay between pins and rollers, there's no upside in using a high cost lubricant over standard weight, non-detergent oil (for lubrication by soaking). For on-bike lubrication, the thin carrier of motorcycle chain lube allows the lubricant to penetrate between pins and rollers, then the carrier evaporates. SAE 30 Chain Oil, 1 gallon, $8.48: https://www.walmart.com/ip/16795133 Kerosene, 1 gallon, $8.75 https://www.walmart.com/ip/51741742 PJ-1 Chain Lube, 17 ounces $18.17 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y Park Chain Cleaner, $24.65 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00094CWA8 I recall the two complaints about chain cleaning tools: 1. They splatter solvent everywhere 2. The solvent gets dirty really fast The first issue has largely been solved, there is some dripping but nothing that can't be contained. The second issue is not an issue at all. You must repeatedly replace the dirty solvent with clean solvent until it runs clear. A dirty chain might require five or more solvent changes since the quantity of solvent in these devices is very small. Like many people here, I went through the hot paraffin waxing stage. It's a lot of work for not very good results, and all the experts agree that it's not really a good idea. I know that now most people mix an oil-based lubricant in with the wax to solve at least some of the issues. I wonder what busy bicycle shops use for cleaning and lubricating chains. I doubt if they remove chains from bikes to clean and lubricate them. I know one person who told me about a shop he worked at and how they had a tank of solvent that was pumped into a chain cleaning device with dirty solvent coming out, but I have never seen such a commercial product and I think that that shop just modified a regular chain cleaner in order to save time. Yes it is very simple: - keeping the grit out for durability and, - keeping the chain lubed for efficiency, - all the above in the minimum amount of time. Lou A couple of shops I've seen, here, simply use a power washer. Frame, wheels, chains and sprockets. Very quick and leaves everything looking spick and span. I don't know, but I assume that they hit the chain with some lube after it dries off. -- Cheers, John B. I clean my off road bikes at the carwash. Relube after drying of coarse. I don't think I can prevent grid getting in totally but here the wax based lubes excel. Lou |
#109
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Dry lube?
On Fri, 4 May 2018 08:02:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:22:51 PM UTC+2, John B. wrote: On Fri, 4 May 2018 02:24:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:49:52 AM UTC+2, sms wrote: On 5/3/2018 9:28 AM, wrote: snip I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies It's not rocket science. You want to get the dirt off and the lubricant in. There are many ways to accomplish this, of various difficulty and expense. Every year at Interbike there must be twenty companies with the latest and greatest chain cleaner and chain lubricant, but in essence it's all repackaging of inexpensive solvents and lubricants into small bottles with fancy names. For cleaning, a non-water-based solvent like kerosene is as good as any of these fancy cleaners. Diesel fuel also works fine. Just avoid water based cleaners like Simple Green. For lubrication, as long as you're not using a solid lubricant that doesn't quickly get displaced, or a very thin lubricant that doesn't stay between pins and rollers, there's no upside in using a high cost lubricant over standard weight, non-detergent oil (for lubrication by soaking). For on-bike lubrication, the thin carrier of motorcycle chain lube allows the lubricant to penetrate between pins and rollers, then the carrier evaporates. SAE 30 Chain Oil, 1 gallon, $8.48: https://www.walmart.com/ip/16795133 Kerosene, 1 gallon, $8.75 https://www.walmart.com/ip/51741742 PJ-1 Chain Lube, 17 ounces $18.17 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y Park Chain Cleaner, $24.65 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00094CWA8 I recall the two complaints about chain cleaning tools: 1. They splatter solvent everywhere 2. The solvent gets dirty really fast The first issue has largely been solved, there is some dripping but nothing that can't be contained. The second issue is not an issue at all. You must repeatedly replace the dirty solvent with clean solvent until it runs clear. A dirty chain might require five or more solvent changes since the quantity of solvent in these devices is very small. Like many people here, I went through the hot paraffin waxing stage. It's a lot of work for not very good results, and all the experts agree that it's not really a good idea. I know that now most people mix an oil-based lubricant in with the wax to solve at least some of the issues. I wonder what busy bicycle shops use for cleaning and lubricating chains. I doubt if they remove chains from bikes to clean and lubricate them. I know one person who told me about a shop he worked at and how they had a tank of solvent that was pumped into a chain cleaning device with dirty solvent coming out, but I have never seen such a commercial product and I think that that shop just modified a regular chain cleaner in order to save time. Yes it is very simple: - keeping the grit out for durability and, - keeping the chain lubed for efficiency, - all the above in the minimum amount of time. Lou A couple of shops I've seen, here, simply use a power washer. Frame, wheels, chains and sprockets. Very quick and leaves everything looking spick and span. I don't know, but I assume that they hit the chain with some lube after it dries off. -- Cheers, John B. I clean my off road bikes at the carwash. Relube after drying of coarse. I don't think I can prevent grid getting in totally but here the wax based lubes excel. The main problem is that everyone is running their chains under very adverse conditions and then bragging about what would be considered in industrial use as very limited use. Somewhere I read about some bloke that was re-lubricating his chain every 1,000 miles. In a plant using a conveyer system that would be re-lubeing every 5 days and I, at least, have never seen a plant shut down for re-lubeing every 5 days. Every chain maker publishes manuals that provide exact instructions about alignment of sprockets, chain tension, cleanliness, lubrication, and even minimum sprocket size, all of which bicycles ignore. Given the, what can only be termed as abuse, that bicycle chains undergo I'd reckon that they do pretty well :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#110
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Dry lube?
On 5/4/2018 8:07 PM, John B. wrote:
The main problem is that everyone is running their [bike] chains under very adverse conditions and then bragging about what would be considered in industrial use as very limited use. Somewhere I read about some bloke that was re-lubricating his chain every 1,000 miles. In a plant using a conveyer system that would be re-lubeing every 5 days and I, at least, have never seen a plant shut down for re-lubeing every 5 days. Every chain maker publishes manuals that provide exact instructions about alignment of sprockets, chain tension, cleanliness, lubrication, and even minimum sprocket size, all of which bicycles ignore. Given the, what can only be termed as abuse, that bicycle chains undergo I'd reckon that they do pretty well :-) John's exactly right. Industrial roller chain manuals would never condone the duty to which we subject derailleur chains. And for proper industrial applications - enclosed, perfectly aligned, kept clean - they specify various wet lubrication methods. Those include even the possibility of continuous pumped streams of oil, or oil baths. Obviously those industrial recommendations don't work for service so far outside the normal industrial use. What does work is a lubrication method that's also outside the normal industrial practice. Dry lube (wax based) has been found by numerous tests to give the longest life and the lowest friction. On one hand, we have the testimonies of those here who have used it for decades, plus the links to test results proving this. On the other hand, we have a guy claiming "all the experts" say different. Go figure. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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