Progress on Germany's 200 mile long bicyclebahn

On 6/28/2016 12:13 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 10:41:12 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2016 6:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 13:43, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
http://phys.org/news/2015-12-germany...-highways.html

"As a glimpse of a greener urban transport future, Germany has just
opened the first five-kilometre (three-mile) stretch of a bicycle
highway that is set to span over 100 kilometres.

It will connect 10 western cities including Duisburg, Bochum and Hamm
and four universities, running largely along disused railroad tracks
in the crumbling Ruhr industrial region.

Almost two million people live within two kilometres of the route and
will be able to use sections for their daily commutes, said Martin
Toennes of regional development group RVR.

Aided by booming demand for electric bikes, which take the sting out
of uphill sections, the new track should take 50,000 cars off the
roads every day, an RVR study predicts."


Here is the whole thing including video links to branch off onto
connecting trails:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZdFFt8u6I8

It's mostly a rail trail. Many of the train signals have been left in
place. If we really want to foster bicycle use this is the way to do it.

Yes - if you want to foster bicycle use on rail trails, that is. What
if I want to ride to the hardware store instead?


--
- Frank Krygowski

With it connecting 10 cities over 100 kilometers (not 200 kms as in the title = Oops) there's a rather good chance you could use it to ride to a hardware store or many other stores.

Of course it depends on the details - that is, where the trail runs,
where the "traffic generators" (stores, schools, offices etc.) are
located. But in every case I'm aware of within 50 miles, the trails are
essentially useless for transportation. They function as linear parks.

And it's not that I'm against linear parks. However, I do think they
should be funded as parks, not transportation facilities; and I don't
think they should be touted as the only safe place to ride.

This is another rerun tale, but: The main rail-trail near me (maybe 10
miles away?) got its grant by the "transportation" spiel. According to
the grant application, it will go past a school. And it will go past
the Fairgrounds, so when the big county fair is held every year, lots of
people will ride instead of drive.

Right. I believe 99.9% of the people who ride it are using it for pure
recreation, and only about 5% got to it _without_ using a car. Most of
the trail is out where even the suburbs are sparse or absent. And this
seems to be typical of these rail trails, because if businesses were
close to the routes, the trains might still be profitable.

There is one train line that runs from the center of the nearby major
city out to "plaza land" and the big shopping mall. Turning it into a
bike trail would have some real transportation value, and it would have
few conflicts due to road crossings. I'd be in favor of that
conversion. But it's not happening, precisely because trains still use it!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2016-06-28 08:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 6:44:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 19:41, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2016 6:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 13:43, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
http://phys.org/news/2015-12-germany...-highways.html



"As a glimpse of a greener urban transport future, Germany has just
opened the first five-kilometre (three-mile) stretch of a
bicycle highway that is set to span over 100 kilometres.

It will connect 10 western cities including Duisburg, Bochum
and Hamm and four universities, running largely along disused
railroad tracks in the crumbling Ruhr industrial region.

Almost two million people live within two kilometres of the
route and will be able to use sections for their daily
commutes, said Martin Toennes of regional development group
RVR.

Aided by booming demand for electric bikes, which take the
sting out of uphill sections, the new track should take
50,000 cars off the roads every day, an RVR study predicts."


Here is the whole thing including video links to branch off
onto connecting trails:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZdFFt8u6I8

It's mostly a rail trail. Many of the train signals have been
left in place. If we really want to foster bicycle use this is
the way to do it.

Yes - if you want to foster bicycle use on rail trails, that is.


No, it foster cycling in general. Whether you believe it or not.


... What if I want to ride to the hardware store instead?


Same as where I live. You use ... the bike path. I prefer stores
that can be reached via those over stores that can't be. Currently
four large HW stores can be reached via bike paths and lanes: Home
Depot in Placerville, Home Depot in Folsom, Lowe's in Folsom and
OSH (which AFAIR was bought by Lowe's). Plus a lot more down
towards the valley.

I thought you were cut-off from Placerville by the highway. No?


No, we have nice singletrack going up there. Past Walmart (which has
sort of its own offramp from that singletrack) that changes to a paved
bike path into town. Come to think of it that's where HW store #5 is and
that is the best, oldest one west of the Mississippi:

https://www.edcgov.us/Living/Stories..._Hardware.aspx


... BTW,
bike lanes and paths are different things.


Bike lanes are much better than nothing. Singletrack to people out here
is also quite acceptable and definitely safer than bike lanes. Sez he
who went OTB on Wednesday :-)


I imagine that a very
small number of people have a separate bike path going right to their
local hardware store. A lot of people have bike lanes for some part
of the ride. I do, but then again, I could walk to my local hardware
store. The Home Depos, Lowes, OSH, etc. are out in the 'burbs, and
one has to . . . gasp . . . ride on roads that in some places have no
bike lanes. It's totally terrifying. http://tinyurl.com/j57dure
Riding down SW 110th, I've encountered numerous skeletons of dead
riders who struggled to get to Home Depot but got hit just yards
away. The flashers were still going on some of them.


That is an easy road. Out here HW stores are generally on main
thoroughfares. Luckily city councils have understood that those should
get bike lanes. Or maybe they just did it to secure federal funds but
either way is fine.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-06-28 10:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/28/2016 12:13 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 10:41:12 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2016 6:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 13:43, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
http://phys.org/news/2015-12-germany...-highways.html

"As a glimpse of a greener urban transport future, Germany has just
opened the first five-kilometre (three-mile) stretch of a bicycle
highway that is set to span over 100 kilometres.

It will connect 10 western cities including Duisburg, Bochum and Hamm
and four universities, running largely along disused railroad tracks
in the crumbling Ruhr industrial region.

Almost two million people live within two kilometres of the route and
will be able to use sections for their daily commutes, said Martin
Toennes of regional development group RVR.

Aided by booming demand for electric bikes, which take the sting out
of uphill sections, the new track should take 50,000 cars off the
roads every day, an RVR study predicts."


Here is the whole thing including video links to branch off onto
connecting trails:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZdFFt8u6I8

It's mostly a rail trail. Many of the train signals have been left in
place. If we really want to foster bicycle use this is the way to do
it.

Yes - if you want to foster bicycle use on rail trails, that is. What
if I want to ride to the hardware store instead?


--
- Frank Krygowski

With it connecting 10 cities over 100 kilometers (not 200 kms as in
the title = Oops) there's a rather good chance you could use it to
ride to a hardware store or many other stores.

Of course it depends on the details - that is, where the trail runs,
where the "traffic generators" (stores, schools, offices etc.) are
located. But in every case I'm aware of within 50 miles, the trails are
essentially useless for transportation. They function as linear parks.


You are living in the wrong area for that. I can get to my old employer
on a very nice bike trail _and_ on a high speed bike trial (no speed
limit) _and_ on a road with wide bike lanes. I have my pick. Because
some city planners down in the valley understand how it's done right.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 11:04:52 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-28 08:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 6:44:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 19:41, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2016 6:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 13:43, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
http://phys.org/news/2015-12-germany...-highways.html



"As a glimpse of a greener urban transport future, Germany has just
opened the first five-kilometre (three-mile) stretch of a
bicycle highway that is set to span over 100 kilometres.

It will connect 10 western cities including Duisburg, Bochum
and Hamm and four universities, running largely along disused
railroad tracks in the crumbling Ruhr industrial region.

Almost two million people live within two kilometres of the
route and will be able to use sections for their daily
commutes, said Martin Toennes of regional development group
RVR.

Aided by booming demand for electric bikes, which take the
sting out of uphill sections, the new track should take
50,000 cars off the roads every day, an RVR study predicts."


Here is the whole thing including video links to branch off
onto connecting trails:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZdFFt8u6I8

It's mostly a rail trail. Many of the train signals have been
left in place. If we really want to foster bicycle use this is
the way to do it.

Yes - if you want to foster bicycle use on rail trails, that is.


No, it foster cycling in general. Whether you believe it or not.


... What if I want to ride to the hardware store instead?


Same as where I live. You use ... the bike path. I prefer stores
that can be reached via those over stores that can't be. Currently
four large HW stores can be reached via bike paths and lanes: Home
Depot in Placerville, Home Depot in Folsom, Lowe's in Folsom and
OSH (which AFAIR was bought by Lowe's). Plus a lot more down
towards the valley.

I thought you were cut-off from Placerville by the highway. No?


No, we have nice singletrack going up there. Past Walmart (which has
sort of its own offramp from that singletrack) that changes to a paved
bike path into town. Come to think of it that's where HW store #5 is and
that is the best, oldest one west of the Mississippi:

I don't think single track counts as a bicycle facility for most commuter cyclists. Yes, I know it does for you and the other mountain lion bait, but not for the people who will magically show up if facilities are built.

I was mowing the lawn on Sunday, and my across the street neighbor came over to talk about getting a bike to commute to work. He's a late 30s guy, descent shape, smart. He's thinking of riding his bike to work over a local on-street facility that winds a little through the hills into town. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyfxYtQrkBw He was anguishing about the danger of riding in a small stretch of bike lane with some berry bushes growing out of a bank. I'm thinking, hmmm "ride around them." I couldn't imagine him negotiating lion country safari on single track.

That's the problem with all the hyper-safety stuff. People start believing that every place is dangerous unless it is basically a Habitrail for cyclists only. It's keeping people off their bikes because no road is safe enough.. Endless hand-wringing and waiting for facilities that will never be built in cities with strapped budgets.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 28/06/2016 4:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 11:04:52 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-28 08:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 6:44:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 19:41, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2016 6:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 13:43, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
http://phys.org/news/2015-12-germany...-highways.html



"As a glimpse of a greener urban transport future, Germany has just
opened the first five-kilometre (three-mile) stretch of a
bicycle highway that is set to span over 100 kilometres.

It will connect 10 western cities including Duisburg, Bochum
and Hamm and four universities, running largely along disused
railroad tracks in the crumbling Ruhr industrial region.

Almost two million people live within two kilometres of the
route and will be able to use sections for their daily
commutes, said Martin Toennes of regional development group
RVR.

Aided by booming demand for electric bikes, which take the
sting out of uphill sections, the new track should take
50,000 cars off the roads every day, an RVR study predicts."


Here is the whole thing including video links to branch off
onto connecting trails:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZdFFt8u6I8

It's mostly a rail trail. Many of the train signals have been
left in place. If we really want to foster bicycle use this is
the way to do it.

Yes - if you want to foster bicycle use on rail trails, that is.


No, it foster cycling in general. Whether you believe it or not.


... What if I want to ride to the hardware store instead?


Same as where I live. You use ... the bike path. I prefer stores
that can be reached via those over stores that can't be. Currently
four large HW stores can be reached via bike paths and lanes: Home
Depot in Placerville, Home Depot in Folsom, Lowe's in Folsom and
OSH (which AFAIR was bought by Lowe's). Plus a lot more down
towards the valley.

I thought you were cut-off from Placerville by the highway. No?


No, we have nice singletrack going up there. Past Walmart (which has
sort of its own offramp from that singletrack) that changes to a paved
bike path into town. Come to think of it that's where HW store #5 is and
that is the best, oldest one west of the Mississippi:

I don't think single track counts as a bicycle facility for most commuter cyclists. Yes, I know it does for you and the other mountain lion bait, but not for the people who will magically show up if facilities are built.

I was mowing the lawn on Sunday, and my across the street neighbor came over to talk about getting a bike to commute to work. He's a late 30s guy, descent shape, smart. He's thinking of riding his bike to work over a local on-street facility that winds a little through the hills into town. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyfxYtQrkBw He was anguishing about the danger of riding in a small stretch of bike lane with some berry bushes growing out of a bank. I'm thinking, hmmm "ride around them." I couldn't imagine him negotiating lion country safari on single track.

That's the problem with all the hyper-safety stuff. People start believing that every place is dangerous unless it is basically a Habitrail for cyclists only. It's keeping people off their bikes because no road is safe enough. Endless hand-wringing and waiting for facilities that will never be built in cities with strapped budgets.


I don't know. I think facilities can get people into riding that
wouldn't initially. Then once they like it and get good they go for it
and actually take a street to get somewhere. I don't think it's that
people are stupid or afraid. Well not afraid anyway. I think if you
don't want to ride, you mostly won't and if you do want to ride you
will. The thing that facilities can do is get the ones on the fence to
try it.

Whether or not facilities are useful to experienced riders is open to
argument on a holistic scale and dependent on the circumstances on a
case by case basis.

I just did a ride from Montreal to Gaineau - 150km. Spent the weekend
in Gatineau park climbing hills and then road back. I spent maybe 15 km
on a bike path that kept me off a 2 lane busy as hell road in Gatineau.
Was it necessary? Not really but if we easier than fighting with the
traffic. YMMV. Oh, and I did not see even 1 DRL and yeah I saw
hundreds of bikes. Imagine all of those uneducated posers...

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 4:34:34 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Snipped
I don't know. I think facilities can get people into riding that
wouldn't initially. Then once they like it and get good they go for it
and actually take a street to get somewhere. I don't think it's that
people are stupid or afraid. Well not afraid anyway. I think if you
don't want to ride, you mostly won't and if you do want to ride you
will. The thing that facilities can do is get the ones on the fence to
try it.

Whether or not facilities are useful to experienced riders is open to
argument on a holistic scale and dependent on the circumstances on a
case by case basis.

I just did a ride from Montreal to Gaineau - 150km. Spent the weekend
in Gatineau park climbing hills and then road back. I spent maybe 15 km
on a bike path that kept me off a 2 lane busy as hell road in Gatineau.
Was it necessary? Not really but if we easier than fighting with the
traffic. YMMV. Oh, and I did not see even 1 DRL and yeah I saw
hundreds of bikes. Imagine all of those uneducated posers...

Just think that when completed that 100 kms long German Bicyclbahn will connect 12 cities. I bet that'd be great for people going to those cities to see what's in the city itself. Some here say that the Bicyclebahn won't connect to things like hardware stores. Funny thing, here in town if I want to go to a hardware store or a bicycle shop there is no direct route to either from my place. I have to take various roads to get there. If I go to either of the nearby cities i have to ride on the roads which I do. It'd be nice if there were a paved Bicyclebahn-like that ran to those cities because if there were I'd go there a lot more often.

It'll be interesting to see just how much use this German 100 kms long Bicyclebahn gets when it's completed.

Cheers

https://www.google.com/search?site=i..._3JUsKCq67M%3A

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 4:12:35 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 11:04:52 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-28 08:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 6:44:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 19:41, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2016 6:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 13:43, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
http://phys.org/news/2015-12-germany...-highways.html



"As a glimpse of a greener urban transport future, Germany has just
opened the first five-kilometre (three-mile) stretch of a
bicycle highway that is set to span over 100 kilometres.

It will connect 10 western cities including Duisburg, Bochum
and Hamm and four universities, running largely along disused
railroad tracks in the crumbling Ruhr industrial region.

Almost two million people live within two kilometres of the
route and will be able to use sections for their daily
commutes, said Martin Toennes of regional development group
RVR.

Aided by booming demand for electric bikes, which take the
sting out of uphill sections, the new track should take
50,000 cars off the roads every day, an RVR study predicts."


Here is the whole thing including video links to branch off
onto connecting trails:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZdFFt8u6I8

It's mostly a rail trail. Many of the train signals have been
left in place. If we really want to foster bicycle use this is
the way to do it.

Yes - if you want to foster bicycle use on rail trails, that is.


No, it foster cycling in general. Whether you believe it or not.


... What if I want to ride to the hardware store instead?


Same as where I live. You use ... the bike path. I prefer stores
that can be reached via those over stores that can't be. Currently
four large HW stores can be reached via bike paths and lanes: Home
Depot in Placerville, Home Depot in Folsom, Lowe's in Folsom and
OSH (which AFAIR was bought by Lowe's). Plus a lot more down
towards the valley.

I thought you were cut-off from Placerville by the highway. No?


No, we have nice singletrack going up there. Past Walmart (which has
sort of its own offramp from that singletrack) that changes to a paved
bike path into town. Come to think of it that's where HW store #5 is and
that is the best, oldest one west of the Mississippi:

I don't think single track counts as a bicycle facility for most commuter cyclists. Yes, I know it does for you and the other mountain lion bait, but not for the people who will magically show up if facilities are built.

I was mowing the lawn on Sunday, and my across the street neighbor came over to talk about getting a bike to commute to work. He's a late 30s guy, descent shape, smart. He's thinking of riding his bike to work over a local on-street facility that winds a little through the hills into town. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyfxYtQrkBw He was anguishing about the danger of riding in a small stretch of bike lane with some berry bushes growing out of a bank. I'm thinking, hmmm "ride around them." I couldn't imagine him negotiating lion country safari on single track.

That's the problem with all the hyper-safety stuff. People start believing that every place is dangerous unless it is basically a Habitrail for cyclists only. It's keeping people off their bikes because no road is safe enough. Endless hand-wringing and waiting for facilities that will never be built in cities with strapped budgets.

-- Jay Beattie.

eees absorbing your bike energy, Master.

good thinking on the oil train problem.

dit dah dit dah dit dah

On 6/28/2016 4:34 PM, Duane wrote:
On 28/06/2016 4:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:


That's the problem with all the hyper-safety stuff. People start
believing that every place is dangerous unless it is basically a
Habitrail for cyclists only. It's keeping people off their bikes
because no road is safe enough. Endless hand-wringing and waiting for
facilities that will never be built in cities with strapped budgets.

I don't know. I think facilities can get people into riding that
wouldn't initially. Then once they like it and get good they go for it
and actually take a street to get somewhere.

I think it's rare for someone to progress from MUP rider to consistent
"get somewhere" rider. After all, if the MUP got them on the bike, it's
likely because they've decided that streets are too dangerous.

Seems to me they're not going to learn any different if they just ride
the MUP. In fact, they'll probably be riding with and talking to lots
of other people who will reinforce the fear - "Oh, I'm _so_ glad we have
this path. I'd never ride where there might be cars!"

Perhaps they might change their mind if they decide the dog walkers,
music-deafened pedestrians, baby-carriage U-turners etc. are even more
hazardous than cars. But I think they'd be more likely to switch to
riding only when the path is empty, or give up riding entirely.

Whether or not facilities are useful to experienced riders is open to
argument on a holistic scale and dependent on the circumstances on a
case by case basis.

There are a few around here I like for practical purposes. Those are
all very short, mostly bypassing (or leaking through) situations that
are dead ends for motorists. In fact, one leisurely nighttime ride I
led for our bike club toured through many of those "nooks and crannies"
as I called them.

But around here, all the big budget MUPs - the ones that would earn
LAB's "Bike Friendly Community" points - are linear parks useful only
for out-and-back recreation rides. Other uses are rare.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 6/28/2016 12:13 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 10:41:12 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2016 6:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-27 13:43, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
http://phys.org/news/2015-12-germany...-highways.html

"As a glimpse of a greener urban transport future, Germany has just
opened the first five-kilometre (three-mile) stretch of a bicycle
highway that is set to span over 100 kilometres.

It will connect 10 western cities including Duisburg, Bochum and Hamm
and four universities, running largely along disused railroad tracks
in the crumbling Ruhr industrial region.

Almost two million people live within two kilometres of the route and
will be able to use sections for their daily commutes, said Martin
Toennes of regional development group RVR.

Aided by booming demand for electric bikes, which take the sting out
of uphill sections, the new track should take 50,000 cars off the
roads every day, an RVR study predicts."


Here is the whole thing including video links to branch off onto
connecting trails:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZdFFt8u6I8

It's mostly a rail trail. Many of the train signals have been left in
place. If we really want to foster bicycle use this is the way to do it.

Yes - if you want to foster bicycle use on rail trails, that is. What
if I want to ride to the hardware store instead?


--
- Frank Krygowski

With it connecting 10 cities over 100 kilometers (not 200 kms as in the title = Oops) there's a rather good chance you could use it to ride to a hardware store or many other stores.

Of course it depends on the details - that is, where the trail runs,
where the "traffic generators" (stores, schools, offices etc.) are
located. But in every case I'm aware of within 50 miles, the trails
are essentially useless for transportation. They function as linear
parks.

And it's not that I'm against linear parks. However, I do think they
should be funded as parks, not transportation facilities; and I don't
think they should be touted as the only safe place to ride.

There is a path in my general locale actually called the "Alewife Linear
Park".

http://www.traillink.com/trail/alewi...nity-path.aspx

Oddly enough it's quite useful for transportation ...

--