Cyclist killed, driver cited for going too fast

RichC wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote in message ...


I know it's hyperbole, but I think it can mislead newbies.

There are lots of situations where, if a cylist really thought "they'll
never notice me, no matter what I do," they'd actually ride more
dangerously. One classic case is to squeeze too close to a parked car
door because of fear of drivers coming from behind.

A cyclist who says, instead, "I'm going to _make_ myself visible" is
often riding safer.


I disagree. There's a big difference between "ride as if you're
invisible" -- the old saw that I agree is potentially deceptive when a
cyclist believes "invisible" means "immaterial" -- and "ride as if the
drivers are blind."
...

Frank, I'd be interested in what you find if you, a very experienced
cyclist, re-analyze your style in light of the "drivers are blind"
principle. You may well have adopted it without really thinking of it
that way. That's what I did.

Try as I might, I can't understand any practical difference between "I'm
invisible" and "the drivers are blind." If anything, in the former
case, it might occur to me to _make_ myself visible. In the latter
case, such a tactic would be futile.

Why not just say something like "Be aware that drivers might not notice
you; so make yourself visible to them, but be ready to avoid them"?


--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Bill Baka wrote:


Call me insane then but at least I am still alive and riding....

Bill, you've now had _dozens_ of very experienced cyclists telling you
you're wrong - if not insane.

It's obvious to me we're not going to convince you.

It should be even more obvious to you that you're not going to convince us.

Why do you keep this up?

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...

Why not just say something like "Be aware that drivers might not notice
you; so make yourself visible to them, but be ready to avoid them"?

Too many words?

Seriously, I take a totally self-centric view. I assume that every vehicle
that approaches me from behind might swerve into me, or right-hook me, or
pull in front of me and suddenly stop. I assume that every vehicle in a
cross street will run the red light or turn in front of me. I assume that
every parked car has an exiting driver about to open the door. Etc, etc,
etc.

I assume they're blind, at least insofar as I am concerned.

This is a very empowering attitude, it's not at all constraining, and it
makes me feel safe, not afraid. It puts me in control, and makes me
responsible for my own destiny. The degree of alertness and situational
awareness required is mentally stimulating and makes me feel edgy and
youthful.

I believe in making myself visible, and do so to an extreme, but it doesn't
change my riding style:

Never trust a driver.
See a block ahead, see a block behind.
Never let a moving car get closer to you than you are to a place you can
bail out to.
Don't scare the drivers; they're emotionally fragile.

RichC

RichC

(RichC) wrote in message om...
omcom (dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) wrote in message ...

When the sun is low in the sky, and bright, such as this time of the year in my
bit of the UK, and I have to cycle 'into' the sun, I have my rear lights *on* -
and one in a flashing mode. Just helps make me that bit more visible.

Have you actually tested that theory?

I ask because I had it happen recently, while driving, that sun glare
made it pretty much impossible for me to see where I was going. I
slowed down pulled over until conditions changed, which took about 10
minutes.

I was the only car that stopped. Was I the only driver that was
blinded? Maybe. But I doubt it.

Drivers blinded by sun glare assume, I think, that they can still see
something as big as a car in time to avoid hitting it. And they drive
on, blindly. That appears to be what happened in the fatal collision
that inspired this thread. Blinking lights on the bike would not have
saved the victims.

Knowing they were being overtaken by a blinded driver and being
prepared to bail out might have saved them. (Total speculation; I have
no actual knowledge of the circumstances.)

Me, I assume that all drivers are blind at all times, and ride
accordingly.

RichC

That's a good strategy.

I take it one step furthur. I assume that most drivers are blind both
physically and mentally. The first thing I do b4 a bike ride is ask
God for protection.

Andy

Sharing roads with cars makes me very nervous. When I commute, the
ride is in the city and the drivers are quite civilized. I am alert
but not worried. When I ride out of town, I stay on the 10-mile-or-so
isolated bike lanes. I
go back and forth knowing I do not have to worry about cars. I do not
adventure into the open country roads.

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:06:51 -0700, Bill Baka wrote:

Call me insane then but at least I am still alive and riding.

Obviously all of us that ride with traffic (now for 45 years) are dead
and no longer able to ride.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

AG wrote:
Sharing roads with cars makes me very nervous. When I commute, the
ride is in the city and the drivers are quite civilized. I am alert
but not worried. When I ride out of town, I stay on the 10-mile-or-so
isolated bike lanes. I
go back and forth knowing I do not have to worry about cars. I do not
adventure into the open country roads.

Well, that is your choice. Based on my experience, I'd say your
attitude is sort of like agoraphobia. You're letting your unjustified
fears limit your life experience. You're making your world smaller.

I've biked in countless cities, several countries, and nearly every US
state, and most of that has been on open country roads. I wouldn't give
it up for the world.


--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

Rich Clark wrote:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...


Why not just say something like "Be aware that drivers might not notice
you; so make yourself visible to them, but be ready to avoid them"?


Too many words?

:-) That's a valid point!

How about "Stay alert, and stay visible" ?


Seriously, I take a totally self-centric view. I assume that every vehicle
that approaches me from behind might swerve into me, or right-hook me, or
pull in front of me and suddenly stop. I assume that every vehicle in a
cross street will run the red light or turn in front of me. I assume that
every parked car has an exiting driver about to open the door. Etc, etc,
etc.

I assume they're blind, at least insofar as I am concerned.

What you describe in the "Seriously..." paragraph, and further down in
your post, is what I do, too - and I do that cycling, driving,
motorcycling and walking. I do a lot of anticipating and being aware of
what might go wrong.

But I just don't think "assume drivers are blind" conveys this properly
to a newbie, especially since the best defense is, so often, increasing
your visibility. If drivers _were_ blind, that wouldn't work - but in
real life, it does.

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

"dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers" wrote com...
(snip)
When the sun is low in the sky, and bright, such as this time of the year
in my
bit of the UK, and I have to cycle 'into' the sun, I have my rear lights
*on* -
and one in a flashing mode. Just helps make me that bit more visible.
(snip)

Similarly when riding *away* from the setting / rising sun it is a good idea
to put your headlight on. This is something I do regularly with driving my
car. If I can see my own shadow on the roadway I always put my headlights
on (and turn them to high-beam) so as to make me more visible to ...
oncoming traffic .. oncoming traffic turning left .. traffic entering the
roadway .. pedestrians.

Richard in Boston, MA, USA

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...

But I just don't think "assume drivers are blind" conveys this properly to
a newbie, especially since the best defense is, so often, increasing your
visibility. If drivers _were_ blind, that wouldn't work - but in real
life, it does.

That's where we disagree. It works often enough that it's worth doing, sure.
But there are still too many drivers that I do not trust to see me -- who
are driving along blind to anything but car-shaped boxes -- to trust them.

Frank, are you telling me that on those (probably very infrequent) occasions
when you are completely surprised by a passing car -- one you *really didn't
know was there* -- you don't feel a tiny surge of relief that your
inattention had no dire consequences? Or that in a moment when you find
yourself trapped -- you're about to be passed and there's nothing to your
right but a solid wall or a sheer drop-off -- you don't worry about an
approaching driver who's punching numbers into his cell phone as he
approaches you from behind?

You seem to be saying "make yourself as visible as possible," and that's all
you can do. I'm saying "assume that every approaching car is the guy with
the phone." He can't see you if he's not looking, and you need to be more
proactive than just being visible to protect yourself from him.

RichC