Steel frames and le Tour

Lou Holtman wrote:
In fatigue tests
steel frames almost always break first.

Good to know if you're looking for a frame for a 700 pound gorilla who
likes to honk up hills

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

jim beam wrote:
so your saturn's just as good as my porsche? that's convincing!

SOTS's clown car beats both of them hands down.

Aeek wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 07:27:42 -0700, jim beam
so your saturn's just as good as my porsche? that's convincing!

My 100% carbon Madone is amazingly compliant compared to my steel 531
tourer. I have longterm concerns, but I minimise that managing my
rides. Steel, I trust to endure; Carbon is good for now.

but why do you feel that way? the facts are that steel fatigues, carbon
[essentially] doesn't. why do people "trust" steel and not carbon? on
what are you basing this opinion?

Lou Holtman wrote:
jim beam wrote:
Lou Holtman wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 12, 5:25 am, Lou Holtman wrote:

They always break at the welds/joints; cablestop welds,
waterbottle welds, at the brazed lugs, glued in dropouts, glued in BB
etc. etc.

While that is typical (mostly due to introduction of stress risers or
poor joinery),
the newest uber light carbon frames are literally snapping in half
during crashes.
That suggests to me that the tubes are too darn light but I'm not a
materials guy.

I have seen steel tubes literally split in half lengthwise. Likely due
to a seamed
tube failing or perhaps a burr on the mandrel used during the drawing
process.

Toward the point of the thread, I wouldn't expect any steel in the pro
peloton. Since
I still race on steel I tend to watch for others in the amateur ranks
that do the same.
This year at about 20 different events I've spotted about 1/2 dozen
steel bikes. My
Landshark, a Pegoretti, a Richie Sachs and a couple others who's
makers escape
me.

I am curious what folks perceive as the "performance gains" of carbon.
I have frames
of carbon, steel and aluminum and there are different ride
characteristics. However,
when any of those materials is used well there is zero performance
difference. I'll
define performance, for sake of argument, as being faster or handling
better (which
would translate to speed and/or comfort).

I agree. I have three roadframes; one titanium, one carbonfiber and
an aluminium one. Zero performance difference. Steel is unnecessary
heavy IMO. Titanium doesn't rust, carbonfiber is light but the best
bang for the money is my aluminum bike.

Lou

i'm with you on the aluminum. /good/ carbon is awesome, but there's a
lot of junk out there. and i mean, a LOT.

imo, the only carbon that's worth using is that from a manufacturer
that does their own work, in-house, using quality materials, and that
can afford to throw away their mistakes. of the asians, giant know
what they're doing

I have seen various Giant carbon frames fail. How is that possible?

Lou

how many? they don't get cited here very often.

to answer, without seeing them, it's hard to say. wildly guessing, i'd
question giant's "unibloc" design, but i'm conservative and prefer
lugged designs like those look employ. otoh trek use "unibloc" very
successfully, so there's no reason giant should be unable to execute.

if you can provide pics/details, maybe we can discuss further.

wrote:
On Jul 9, 4:38 pm, bfd wrote:
On Jul 7, 11:22 am, wrote:

Anyone know the last year a steel frame was used by a racing cyclist
in the TdF?
Not sure about the TdF, but here's the last steel frame to win any
kind of championship:

http://www.bikespecialties.com/site/peloton4.html

Btw, that's Dede Barry's 2002 world cup steel frame with carbon fork.
Here's her description of it:

"I wanted a steel bike, for durability and strength, with the vintage
Mariposa lugs. He ordered the lightest steel available, pieced it
together with the lugs, placed a lightweight, stiff carbon fork on it
and painted the whole bike, including the stem and fork, light and
royal blue. We chose Campagnolo components and he had it all built up
for me in two weeks, just in time to get dialed in on it before the
race."

Thanks. That's a gorgeous bike. Love that color-coordinated stem.



Sure is--the old guys who get together to ogle their old Hetchins would
like this one.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

A Muzi wrote:
Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:
and, fyi, my $1000 aluminum bianchi frame doesn't ride anything like my
$100 aluminum nashbar frame. but you already knew that.

My '85 25" Cannondale touring bike with straight-gauge tubing rides
differently from my '05 25" Cannondale touring bike with shaped,
tapered and butted tubing. But it is not clear which one rides
"better". I'm much happier with my old C'dale-- but that could easily
be a matter of its 70/70 degree angles versus my new bike's 73/72.5
angles.

I have observed no correlation between the cost or weight of a bike
frame and its overall ride quality. I've owned a lot of bikes, from
full customs on down to alley foundlings, and I have had a lot of
opportunity to compare and contrast frames of different pedigrees.
It's obvious to me that more money can buy a lighter bike, but it
isn't at all obvious that more money can buy a better ride.

I have a couple of bikes-- one that I bought for $50 and another I got
for free, that I'm all but certain are more satisfactory rides than
anything I could find in stock, in my city of population one million,
for any amount of money.

Well said.
My favorite ride, lo these many long years, sold new for $26 as a
complete bike.


Wow. Dare I ask when it was new, and to describe it?

Steve ('82 Olmo , Columbus SL)

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Lou Holtman wrote:
jim beam wrote:
Lou Holtman wrote:
hizark21 wrote:

jim beam wrote:
hizark21 wrote:
Calfee is about the only carbon frame I would consider buying. Calfee
is one of the few custom carbon frames with a lifetime warranty. A
few
years back Lance made a comment that did not need a custom frame.
It's
ironic, because Trek did produce some custom models just for Lance.

Personally I prefer steel for it's durability.
I would like to see how many crashes a carbon fiber frame can
withstand...?


where to people get this idea? seriously, i'd like to know so the
source of this drivel can be properly educated.

I used to work in a shop and can't remember a frame failing due to
rust. In any case a rust prevenitive will easily solve the problem.
not only does steel rust, high strength steels have no fatigue
endurance
limit. if you want durable, you want either [quality] cfrp or low
strength steels with low loading [which in turn means considerable
over-building and correspondingly much higher weight].


Composites do save
weight, but they still have not solved the delamination problem.


eh? i think trek, giant, look, time, colnago, campy, [etc] might
disagree... unless of course you mean that it fractures on over-load.
but since that overload is 3x that of steel, /and/ more fatigue
resistant to boot, again, i think you're singing from the wrong
song sheet.

Excuse me, but your average composite frame has a tensile strength of
125,000 psi. Reynolds 953 has tensile strengh of 375,000 psi.

The problem is frames never fail due to exceeding the tensile
strenght CF or Steel. The always break at the welds/joints; cablestop
welds, waterbottle welds, at the brazed lugs, glued in dropouts,
glued in BB etc. etc.
I bought a Scott CR1 CF frame because in a fatigue test they didn't
break and Scott had a good warranty record. The frame didn't break so
far, but look what happened:

http://home.planet.nl/~holtm072/plaa...cottBBbus1.jpg
http://home.planet.nl/~holtm072/plaa...cottBBbus2.jpg

There are lots of examples of broken steel frames too. In fatigue
tests steel frames almost always break first.

Lou




you'll note that when i cite examples of quality carbon frames, that
manufacturer is not on the list.


How do you know which manufacturer is worth while to put on your list?

what i know of their manufacturing methods and what i know of reliability.


My frame was tested excellent in various fatigue tests in respected
bicycle magazines and independent (?) test labs.


in this specific instance, i personally know several different people
that have had problems with scott frames, that's why i'd stay away.
where do they make them these days btw?

M-gineering wrote:
Lou Holtman wrote:
In fatigue tests
steel frames almost always break first.

Good to know if you're looking for a frame for a 700 pound gorilla who
likes to honk up hills


it doesn't take 700lbs or a gorilla.

On Jul 12, 7:48*am, Lou Holtman wrote:

Steel is unnecessary heavy IMO.

Certainly steel isn't the weight weenie material of choice. However,
for discussion, my LandShark weighs in at approx. one pound more than
my Calfee Tetra Pro (17 vs 16 lbs). Both have Campy 10sp drivetrains
and relatively heavy clincher wheels (1600g, 32 spokes, box rims). If
I set-up the 'Shark with lighter crank, saddle and a set of light
tubulars I could easily go under 16 pounds with it. If I weenied the
Calfee I can get it under 14, maybe close to 13 if silly light parts
were used.

Steel really isn't as heavy as some folks expect. Rides nice too but
that is subjective of course :-)

(best value for) the money is my aluminum bike.

No argument - there are some nice riding Al bikes that are darn
cheap.

Totally off topic - came across a guy with a rec.bicycles.racing
jersey today. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

Best,

Mark

In article ,
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:12:32 -0700 (PDT), hizark21
wrote:

Calfee is about the only carbon frame I would consider buying. Calfee
is one of the few custom carbon frames with a lifetime warranty. A few
years back Lance made a comment that did not need a custom frame. It's
ironic, because Trek did produce some custom models just for Lance.

Personally I prefer steel for it's durability. Composites do save
weight, but they still have not solved the delamination problem. So
basically this means that you can kiss $3000 away the first time you
crash hard. I would much rather ride a frame that is more durable and
a pound heavier.

Do you race bikes? For a hobby bike racer, and OCLV will last a bunch
of years.

This is a guy who was asking about getting a set of Mavic Carbone Ultimate wheels
last year. Go figure.

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?