Steel frames and le Tour

hizark21 wrote:
I agree with you. The problem is that price has become so high in
relation to the weight reduction gain it no longer makes at the very
high end. Now if the durability was as good or better than it would
make more sense. I used to work in a shop and follow the industry
quite closely. I am still amazed that consumers are still buying these
types of CF frames.

wrote:
On Jul 12, 8:34 am, jim beam wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 12, 2:49�am, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:38:01 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:12:32 -0700 (PDT), hizark21
wrote:
Calfee is about the only carbon frame I would consider buying. Calfee
is one of the few custom carbon frames with a lifetime warranty. A few
years back Lance made a comment that did not need a custom frame. It's
ironic, because Trek did produce some custom models just for Lance.
Personally I prefer steel for it's durability. �Composites do save
weight, but they still have not solved the delamination problem. So
basically this means that you can kiss $3000 away the first time you
crash hard. I would much rather ride a frame that is more durable and
a pound heavier.
Do you race bikes? �For a hobby bike racer, and OCLV will last a bunch
of years.
For hobby bike racers, an OCLV frame or similar quality carbon fiber
frame will last a bunch of years.
For about $600 or more. However, for about $100-$200 you can have an
al frame that will perform the same. I"m not against carbon. It makes
into a nice light bike. However, it costs a good $$$$$$. In terms of
reliability, they are ok as are steel and al bikes. The thing with
fibers is that they tear just like clothing. Most often they don't and
sometimes they do. Same thing with aluminum. Most of the time they are
fine, but once in a while they crack.
no dude. unless you have a serious crash, which no other frame would
survive either, quality carbon will not crack. in fact, it'll handle a
good deal /more/ abuse. as for fiber "tearing", it's not tissue paper.

bottom line, you can't condemn a whole class of materials if you don't
understand how they work or acknowledge that, like most other things,
quality is a factor.
Of course it is. Yet, I've seen CF frames that have cracked and you
could see that the fibers have torn. I don't know much about
development so, I have to go by what I see. I have a friend who lived
next door to me he had an oclv that cracked twice with normal use.
Both times he sent it back to Trek and he got a new frame no questions
asked, since the frames were pretty new. He still has the third one
and its been a while. That wasn't the first time that I've seen CF
frames with cracks/tears. So, I feel a little uncomfortable about a
material that on occasions exhibit these sort of behavior after
crashes, etc.

With CF components, it is laughable the way they seem to exploit on
accidents. The campy CF rear derailleurs and briefters are a joke.
I've seen tons of these parts after accidents and in shops and they
look like they've exploded or something. I've never seen allow
components damaged in the way CF components get damaged. Usually after
an accident when the frame is toast, you get a new frame and switch
all the components, get on the bike and go. Not with CF. Also, it is
always recommended that you toss the ones that superficially survived,
after crashes.

It is likely that, as you suggest, steel is even weaker than carbon. I
can't argue with that. However, I've had plenty of falls on steel and
the frames never seem damaged. Even when bent out of alignment, I
could cold set them back into their normal shape. So, from my own
limited experience, steel seems safer and more durable to me. Also, it
is cheaper.

So, to me, the advantage of CF is that it is lighter. When you pick up
a modern CF bike, it is always very light. However, I've ridden CF
bikes and I don't notice any performance improvement. So, I am not
willing to make the investment. In truth, I like the sort of "dead/
hollow" feeling that you get when ridding CF. Some people don't but I
do. It is a very nice feeling. However, it is only just that. I don't
go any faster on a CF bike and forget about that feeling after 10
minutes of riding. Those that have CF bikes don't go any faster than
me or have any more endurance.

So, for Joe average, it don't make no difference. If you are wealthy
and have to have the best, by all means get carbon. However, it won't
make you a better cyclist, Just like a Rolex won't give better time
than a Seiko.

Andres



I like ti cause it
looks new with a touch of sandpaper. Every year after taking my custom
made chines ti bike apart and sandpappering it I have a new bike.
no you don't, you have a bike with a bunch of new surface scratches that
is becoming less dimensionally consistent.

None
of the other materials can do this.
or should do this!

But, in terms of bang for buck,
there is no question that AL is the best. I just got a brand new
Javelin TT bike with 105 components and a 76 degree AL frame for $600.
There is no material except for AL that will give you a perfectly
fine, ready to race bike for less than $900.
on that we agree.

because they're light, fatigue resistant, strong and comfortable?

hizark21 wrote:
This a important consideration for someone who is riding a composite
frame with no lifetime warranty and or discounted frame replacement
program. Throwing away $3000 or $6000 is simply ridiculous to spend on
frame that you have bad day and crash.

Scott wrote:
On Jul 11, 10:12 pm, hizark21 wrote:
Calfee is about the only carbon frame I would consider buying. Calfee
is one of the few custom carbon frames with a lifetime warranty. A few
years back Lance made a comment that did not need a custom frame. It's
ironic, because Trek did produce some custom models just for Lance.

Personally I prefer steel for it's durability. Composites do save
weight, but they still have not solved the delamination problem. So
basically this means that you can kiss $3000 away the first time you
crash hard. I would much rather ride a frame that is more durable and
a pound heavier.



bfd wrote:
On Jul 10, 11:37�am, wrote:
Fascinating how times have changed. �In the days of steel riders had
"custom" frames made for them, sometimes by builders of their own
choosing. �Now, we supposedly have all of these "stock" carbon frames
(e.g., Cervelo, Trek) with which riders are perfectly content.- Hide quoted text -
No, its possible that a rider may be using a "custom" carbon frames,
i.e., custom geometry/sizing, as such frames have been used in the
Tour, as far back as 1990, when Greg Lemond rode a custom Calfee (then
Carbonframes). Its my understanding that Colnagos can be ordered with
custom geometry/sizing too. Thou, I'm not sure about Time, Ridley or
any of the Chinese-made cookie cutter carbon frames.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
You don't even have to crash hard. Hell, I broke the nicest riding
frame I've ever owned ( an S-Works Roubaix) when it wasn't even a
month old. Very stupidly wasn't paying attention as I was hopping a
curb onto a grassy area, was barely rolling. Anyway, I didn't see the
depression that my front wheel had dropped into just as I was lifting
the rear wheel to clear the curb and flipped myself over the bars.
Luckily, I landed in the grass. My bike landed on it's side, with the
rear derailleur striking the curb. Cracked the seatstay about 3
inches above the derailleur hanger, although the stay didn't hit the
ground.

Yeah... I'm bummed.


eh? no lifetime warranty??? you have all the warranty and support you
need for long enough to know whether it's going to fail. [bathtub
curve]. all you have to do is ride the freakin' thing hard enough to
test it.

and any crash-damaged frame is still crash-damaged. regardless of material.

On Jul 13, 12:18Â*pm, jim beam wrote:
hizark21 wrote:
This a important consideration for someone who is riding a composite
frame with no lifetime warranty and or discounted frame replacement
program. Throwing away $3000 or $6000 is simply ridiculous to spend on
frame that you have bad day and crash.

Scott wrote:
On Jul 11, 10:12 pm, hizark21 wrote:
Calfee is about the only carbon frame I would consider buying. Calfee
is one of the few custom carbon frames with a lifetime warranty. A few
years back Lance made a comment that did not need a custom frame. It's
ironic, because Trek did produce some custom models just for Lance.

Personally I prefer steel for it's durability. Â*Composites do save
weight, but they still have not solved the delamination problem. So
basically this means that you can kiss $3000 away the first time you
crash hard. I would much rather ride a frame that is more durable and
a pound heavier.

bfd wrote:
On Jul 10, 11:37�am, wrote:
Fascinating how times have changed. �In the days of steel riders had
"custom" frames made for them, sometimes by builders of their own
choosing. �Now, we supposedly have all of these "stock" carbon frames
(e.g., Cervelo, Trek) with which riders are perfectly content.- Hide quoted text -
No, its possible that a rider may be using a "custom" carbon frames,
i.e., custom geometry/sizing, as such frames have been used in the
Tour, as far back as 1990, when Greg Lemond rode a custom Calfee (then
Carbonframes). Â*Its my understanding that Colnagos can be ordered with
custom geometry/sizing too. Thou, I'm not sure about Time, Ridley or
any of the Chinese-made cookie cutter carbon frames.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
You don't even have to crash hard. Â*Hell, I broke the nicest riding
frame I've ever owned ( an S-Works Roubaix) when it wasn't even a
month old. Â*Very stupidly wasn't paying attention as I was hopping a
curb onto a grassy area, was barely rolling. Â*Anyway, I didn't see the
depression that my front wheel had dropped into just as I was lifting
the rear wheel to clear the curb and flipped myself over the bars.
Luckily, I landed in the grass. Â*My bike landed on it's side, with the
rear derailleur striking the curb. Â*Cracked the seatstay about 3
inches above the derailleur hanger, although the stay didn't hit the
ground.

Yeah... I'm bummed.

eh? Â*no lifetime warranty??? Â*you have all the warranty and support you
need for long enough to know whether it's going to fail. Â*[bathtub
curve]. Â*all you have to do is ride the freakin' thing hard enough to
test it.

and any crash-damaged frame is still crash-damaged. Â*regardless of material.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In other words, crash damage is not covered by warranty. Warranties
cover defects in workmanship or design and are not the same as a free
replacement program. Cannondale does have a trade up program where
they will accept any POS broken frame in trade (plus some cash -- I
don't know how much) for a new frame -- so long as you are the
original owner of the old frame.

What is surprising about some very expensive frames is that the
warranty is void if the frame is ever raced -- regardless of whether
the ultimate failure of the frame is related to any racing
catastrophe. So, if you buy a Colnago C50 (are we up to the C60
yet?) and you race it, say goodbye to the warranty. At least that is
how I recall the Colnago warranty.

BTW, every time we have one of these CFRP threads, I am left wanting
some statistical evidence of their longevity as compared to aluminum
or MODERN steel (not SP/531 boat anchor material). We always end up
with the usual claims that CFRP is either Satan incarnate or the
second coming. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jul 13, 12:18 pm, jim beam wrote:
hizark21 wrote:
This a important consideration for someone who is riding a composite
frame with no lifetime warranty and or discounted frame replacement
program. Throwing away $3000 or $6000 is simply ridiculous to spend on
frame that you have bad day and crash.
Scott wrote:
On Jul 11, 10:12 pm, hizark21 wrote:
Calfee is about the only carbon frame I would consider buying. Calfee
is one of the few custom carbon frames with a lifetime warranty. A few
years back Lance made a comment that did not need a custom frame. It's
ironic, because Trek did produce some custom models just for Lance.
Personally I prefer steel for it's durability. Composites do save
weight, but they still have not solved the delamination problem. So
basically this means that you can kiss $3000 away the first time you
crash hard. I would much rather ride a frame that is more durable and
a pound heavier.
bfd wrote:
On Jul 10, 11:37�am, wrote:
Fascinating how times have changed. �In the days of steel riders had
"custom" frames made for them, sometimes by builders of their own
choosing. �Now, we supposedly have all of these "stock" carbon frames
(e.g., Cervelo, Trek) with which riders are perfectly content.- Hide quoted text -
No, its possible that a rider may be using a "custom" carbon frames,
i.e., custom geometry/sizing, as such frames have been used in the
Tour, as far back as 1990, when Greg Lemond rode a custom Calfee (then
Carbonframes). Its my understanding that Colnagos can be ordered with
custom geometry/sizing too. Thou, I'm not sure about Time, Ridley or
any of the Chinese-made cookie cutter carbon frames.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
You don't even have to crash hard. Hell, I broke the nicest riding
frame I've ever owned ( an S-Works Roubaix) when it wasn't even a
month old. Very stupidly wasn't paying attention as I was hopping a
curb onto a grassy area, was barely rolling. Anyway, I didn't see the
depression that my front wheel had dropped into just as I was lifting
the rear wheel to clear the curb and flipped myself over the bars.
Luckily, I landed in the grass. My bike landed on it's side, with the
rear derailleur striking the curb. Cracked the seatstay about 3
inches above the derailleur hanger, although the stay didn't hit the
ground.
Yeah... I'm bummed.
eh? no lifetime warranty??? you have all the warranty and support you
need for long enough to know whether it's going to fail. [bathtub
curve]. all you have to do is ride the freakin' thing hard enough to
test it.

and any crash-damaged frame is still crash-damaged. regardless of material.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In other words, crash damage is not covered by warranty. Warranties
cover defects in workmanship or design and are not the same as a free
replacement program. Cannondale does have a trade up program where
they will accept any POS broken frame in trade (plus some cash -- I
don't know how much) for a new frame -- so long as you are the
original owner of the old frame.

What is surprising about some very expensive frames is that the
warranty is void if the frame is ever raced -- regardless of whether
the ultimate failure of the frame is related to any racing
catastrophe. So, if you buy a Colnago C50 (are we up to the C60
yet?) and you race it, say goodbye to the warranty. At least that is
how I recall the Colnago warranty.

same applies to cars and motorcycles.



BTW, every time we have one of these CFRP threads, I am left wanting
some statistical evidence of their longevity as compared to aluminum
or MODERN steel (not SP/531 boat anchor material). We always end up
with the usual claims that CFRP is either Satan incarnate or the
second coming. -- Jay Beattie.

we have those "tour" fatigue tests. they're no less valid today than
they were then.

bottom line, as with anything else, if people want to bleat about
carbon, they should do so on the basis of some particular manufacturer
and their quality, or lack of. underinformed blanket condemnation crap
about "carbon is evil" is simply hysterical metaphorical dog-kicking -
misplaced anger and resentment from those that can't afford to ride it.

Calfee is one of the few custom carbon frames with a lifetime warranty.

FWIW, Calfee frames do not come with a lifetime warranty. It's 25
years on the Tetra Pro and the Dragonfly and 10 years on the Luna and
the bamboo bikes. The warantee is transferable if you sell the
frameset but the new owner has to pay a fee ($250) and the frame needs
to be inspected by the factory to make the transfer.

Calfee also has a crash replacement program for folks that stack 'em
and can likely repair 25 year old framesets if one were in need.

Since you said you'd consider Calfee, note that amongst Calfee owners
folks are hard pressed to discern any difference in ride between the
Tetra and Luna. There is a small weight difference and the waranty
part as discussed but the savings are worth it if neither is a huge
concern.

Mark

still just me wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:17:33 -0700, Howard Kveck
wrote:

Additionally, with carbon the builder can add material and form shapes to
strengthen the frame that can't be done easily (if at all) with steel.


And then there's this:
http://picasaweb.google.com/dbiked/B...ey=iOs1rM3MJzo

Somehow I can't envision a steel frame snapping under similar
circumstances. I've seen stick in spokes with a higher tensile
strength than that squirrel that just snapped right off.

What is the tensile strength of a tree rat?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"People who had no mercy will find none." - Anon.

On Jul 12, 9:48*am, jim beam wrote:
thus steel frames are much more prone to shimmy -
especially for larger frame sizes.

shimmy is bad and completely avoidable.


I'm your basic giant. I therefore ride giant frames, and they've
always been steel. They don't shimmy. I can hit 52 mph going down a
hill near my house, so I'd notice any tendency to shimmy.
-Paul

On Jul 12, 12:50*pm, Morten Reippuert Knudsen
wrote:
On 2008-07-11 20:24:35 +0200, "Paul G." said:

The Campy rear derailleur of the day was well-made, though the design
was inferior to the slant pantograph. The problem with the Simplex
derailleurs was that they were made with a lot of plastic so they
flexed and had a lot of friction.

The simplex's (and Gimpieme's OEM version) where available i 4
different materials: Titanium/aluminum, aluminum , steel/aluminum and
plastic/steel.

the pure alumium version did't flex and shifting was very good.


OK, I never saw anything but the plastic versions.
-Paul

Howard Kveck wrote:
Additionally, with carbon the builder can add material and form shapes to
strengthen the frame that can't be done easily (if at all) with steel.

still just me wrote:
And then there's this:
http://picasaweb.google.com/dbiked/B...ey=iOs1rM3MJzo

Somehow I can't envision a steel frame snapping under similar
circumstances. I've seen stick in spokes with a higher tensile
strength than that squirrel that just snapped right off.

So CF is a problem for race boys who crash, and amateurs who ride in
the country. What small slice does that leave where CF is safe?

Steel frames wreck too when the forces exceed the material's limits. As
do aluminum and titanium. Without quantifying anything about a specific
failure (and believe me every crash in a singular event!) we can't
generalize about failures in the way you suggest. Steel is usually
repairable, carbon usually not.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Jul 13, 3:38 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

SP/531 boat anchor material...

Boat anchor material? C'mon...that's being just a bit harsh don'tcha
think?. Lots of beautiful, serviceable bikes were made out of these
tubes. Heck, some of 'em were even raced to great success...

I like the modern steels and own an Ultra-Foco frame that has survived
3 crashes over the last 6 years. However, I too would like to see the
data to which you refer. Are these thin-walled modern steels like
Spirit, Life, etc. any more durable than quality aluminum or carbon
fibre?