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  #221  
Old August 8th 18, 08:41 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
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Posts: 3,875
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On 08/08/18 19:21, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 15:24:39 +0100, TMS320 wrote:
On 07/08/18 18:29, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 07 Aug 2018 15:27:28 +0100, JNugent
wrote:


It is intended only to alert other road-users to one's
presence.
Er no. It means "You ****ing arsehole, why the hell didn't you
indicate?!"


A horn conveys no information so how are your targets supposed to
know what your problem is?


Well let me see, Mr Smith turns right at a roundabout without
indicating, and someone correctly pulls in front of him, then sounds
their horn when they see he's about to collide with them. He can
then look up the highway code or whatever and find out why the other
car had the right of way.


Just because Mr Smith is not indicating right it is not correct for AN
Other to pull out on a whim. Too many hims and thems. Explain who is
doing what and who ends up in front of whom.

It is not intended to convey the message: "Get out of my way
or there might be a crash". I such circumstances, you are
supposed to slow down or stop.
I don't, I drive as close as possible to the vehicle without
touching them, this scares them into not doing it again,


Have you ever followed up the result of your education with the
individuals concerned?


Yes, I often have people banging on my door yelling at me. I had a
bus driver sacked for doing just that, after not indicating and
deciding he had priority over cars at a junction.


So the answer is that you don't know that your education works.
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  #222  
Old August 8th 18, 08:43 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Posts: 581
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On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 19:20:56 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

On 08/08/18 16:28, JNugent wrote:
On 08/08/2018 15:24, TMS320 wrote:
On 07/08/18 15:27, JNugent wrote:

Since horns are rarely, if ever, used for their legallt-intended
purpose, my view - for a long time - has been that rather than being
a C&U requirement, they should be banned except for the ones used on
official emergency vehicles.

I once used horn to try and stop a van driver from reversing
into me. The HC seems to allow that.

Alerting him to your presence is the specific purpose of a horn; that
much has been said already.


It is a special case when stationary.


Why are you making so much fuss about the "correct use of a horn"? OCD is
a DISORDER. Get it fixed.

Using the horn for its proper purpose is a very rare occurrence.

It's hard to escape the conclusion that you're just supposed to stop
in order to avoid a collision.

The original HC in the 1930's said "sounding your horn does not give
you right of way or absolve you from the duty of taking every
precaution to avoid an accident". Unfortunately this seems to have
disappeared from the modern version. "warn[ing] other road users of
your presence" is not particularly helpful.

There's still the law about driving without due care and attention
and/or without due consideration for other road users.

The requirement that a horn should not be used when stationary
seems a bit strange because (offhand) I can't think of a circumstance
nowadays where the horn could be useful while moving. Perhaps the
requirement came from the days when motor vehicles were hard to
control and there were few of them so people were not used to their
presence. Now, people use roads with the full expectation that
something big and fast operated by a psychopath is round the next
corner. Also, bulb air horns were more acceptable than the nasty
electric objects fitted today.

The obvious use whilst moving would be when approaching ths "summit"
of a hump-backed bridge or a sharp bend.


Perhaps you mean something like this? It is is harder seen from a
driver's perspective than from a high mounted camera. No need. Adjust
speed according to what can be seen.

https://goo.gl/maps/9MSMX69BxzM2
https://goo.gl/maps/R48YMSxzjQk

Incidentally, the bridge has a 2t mgw limit so several drivers shown
here are breaking the rules - plus many others plus a council official
with a Range Rover that knows full well.


WTF are you on about? I can clearly see what's coming the other way, that
is not a blind bridge whatsoever. Unless it's because the camera is
higher up than most drivers.

A multi-storey car-park near here had a down-ramp with a give way line
at the bottom of it, with the posibility of traffic approaching from
the left. A sign on the wall said "Sound Horn". I never did.


Weird.


The only time I've ever seen that is in France, in a tunnel in the alps,
it said something like "soundez obliatoire" with a diagram of a horn.

There were houses near the location and the occupants were as entitled
to reasonable efforts to keep down noise as anyone else is.


Well done you.

Likewise, an Italian friend used to sound his car horn on a hump-backed
bridge near his village. But the bridge had a house adjacent to it. He
would never listen to my remonstrations; I gained the impression that he

On a bicycle, the voice can be useful because the approach behind
pedestrians or horse riders is otherwise silent. When there is
insufficient clearance to get past without having their awareness I
always slow to match their speed before announcing my presence.

That sort of sounds OK and in keeping with the HC instructions on
motor-vehicle horns.


Except motor vehicles already make so much noise that they don't require
embellishment. Making pedestrians aware of my presence when I approach
behind them isn't needed in the car as it is on the bike.


Some modern cars are very quiet when driving slowly. I've often crossed a
road thinking there's nothing coming when there is. I thought they were
electric cars, but some petrol vehicles seem to make virtually no noise
now when travelling at 20mph. Not that anyone should ever drive that
slowly.

I still believe that it would be better if car-horns were simply
banned. The nuisance caused by mis-use far outweighs the weight of the
odd anecdotal case for their use for safety-related purposes.


Indeed. At most, such "safety-related purposes" could only cover small
insurance claims and can't possibly have effect on personal safety.

If the horn was not so unpleasant, the administrators that defined the
90dbA standard understood physics and the pad on the steering wheel was
force sensing to allow the driver to add expression it might be more
acceptable.


What do you mean? Are you suggesting it should be louder if you press
harder?

On that subject, why are horns so hard to find? I've often tried to hoot
at someone and failed to find the precise part at which you must press the
wheel to make the noise. The other thing hard to find is the hazard
warning lights, there's no standard at all for the position of the
switch. I once rented a van where the switch was actually on the
ceiling! They'd also replaced the rearview mirror (which obviously
wouldn't work with a van with no back window) with a satnav. I was not
told it was a satnav - for my whole journey it functioned as a very large
clock.
  #223  
Old August 8th 18, 08:44 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Posts: 581
Default Stolen Bike

On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 20:41:27 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

On 08/08/18 19:21, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 15:24:39 +0100, TMS320 wrote:
On 07/08/18 18:29, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 07 Aug 2018 15:27:28 +0100, JNugent wrote:

It is intended only to alert other road-users to one's presence.
Er no. It means "You ****ing arsehole, why the hell didn't you
indicate?!"
A horn conveys no information so how are your targets supposed to
know what your problem is?

Well let me see, Mr Smith turns right at a roundabout without
indicating, and someone correctly pulls in front of him, then sounds
their horn when they see he's about to collide with them. He can then
look up the highway code or whatever and find out why the other car had
the right of way.


Just because Mr Smith is not indicating right it is not correct for AN
Other to pull out on a whim. Too many hims and thems. Explain who is
doing what and who ends up in front of whom.


If you don't indicate right at a roundabout, you do not have the right to
turn right. WTF are you doing turning without informing other road users
as to where you intend to go?

It is not intended to convey the message: "Get out of my way
or there might be a crash". I such circumstances, you are supposed
to slow down or stop.
I don't, I drive as close as possible to the vehicle without touching
them, this scares them into not doing it again,
Have you ever followed up the result of your education with the
individuals concerned?

Yes, I often have people banging on my door yelling at me. I had a bus
driver sacked for doing just that, after not indicating and deciding he
had priority over cars at a junction.


So the answer is that you don't know that your education works.


Try that again in English.
  #224  
Old August 8th 18, 09:00 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,alt.war.vietnam
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Posts: 581
Default Stolen Bike

On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 19:29:02 +0100, Bruce 'Not Glug' Lee
wrote:

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 10:33:18 +0100, Bruce 'Not Glug' Lee
wrote:

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2018 12:44:54 +0100, Bruce 'Not Glug' Lee
wrote:

By all accounts, any interaction between a cyclist and a driver will
almost inevitably have the latter bleating that the cyclist 'doesn't
pay
road tax'. That this belief is so widespread, despite 'road tax'
having
been abolished over eight decades ago, means that it is not going to
go
away any time soon. The sense of entitlement of the driver is
responsible for over 1,700 deaths every year in Britain.

Teach drivers that the roads do not belong to them. Beat it out of
them. Because that is the only way things are going to change.
Drivers
have to know that if they threaten the life or physical safety of
another road user, then they are going to get seriously injured.

I can get to my destination 10 times faster than you.

Not in any urban environment you can't.


I don't live in such ********s. This is the UK, not Indian slums.


I've ridden in London. I did an eight-mile trip faster than a taxi.


Surely someone such as yourself who enjoys cycling should enjoy the fresh
air and countryside, not built up cities? I look forward to the day oil
runs out and we go back to a simpler more natural way of living.
  #225  
Old August 8th 18, 09:09 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
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Posts: 3,875
Default Stolen Bike

On 08/08/18 20:44, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 20:41:27 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

On 08/08/18 19:21, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 15:24:39 +0100, TMS320 wrote:
On 07/08/18 18:29, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 07 Aug 2018 15:27:28 +0100, JNugent wrote:

It is intended only to alert other road-users to one's presence.
Er no. It means "You ****ing arsehole, why the hell didn't you
indicate?!"
*A horn conveys no information so how are your targets supposed to
know what your problem is?
*Well let me see, Mr Smith turns right at a roundabout without
indicating, and someone correctly pulls in front of him, then sounds
their horn when they see he's about to collide with them.* He can
then look up the highway code or whatever and find out why the other
car had the right of way.


Just because Mr Smith is not indicating right it is not correct for AN
Other to pull out on a whim. Too many hims and thems. Explain who is
doing what and who ends up in front of whom.


If you don't indicate right at a roundabout, you do not have the right
to turn right.* WTF are you doing turning without informing other road
users as to where you intend to go?


When following marked lanes indication is not necessary. Indication is
only useful when making lane changes or where there is ambiguity. And I
live in the south east where most people adapt to cope with each others'
behaviour without going into a hissy fit at every opportunity.

Please explain your scenario in more detail.

It is not intended to convey the message: "Get out of my way
or there might be a crash". I such circumstances, you are supposed
to slow down or stop.
I don't, I drive as close as possible to the vehicle without
touching them, this scares them into not doing it again,
*Have you ever followed up the result of your education with the
individuals concerned?
*Yes, I often have people banging on my door yelling at me. I had a
bus driver sacked for doing just that, after not indicating and
deciding he had priority over cars at a junction.


So the answer is that you don't know that your education works.


Try that again in English.


It's good enough.
  #226  
Old August 8th 18, 09:12 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
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Posts: 3,875
Default Stolen Bike

On 08/08/18 20:21, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 20:10:08 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

On 08/08/18 19:16, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 15:24:28 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

On a bicycle, the voice can be useful because the approach behind
pedestrians or horse riders is otherwise silent. When there is
insufficient clearance to get past without having their awareness I
always slow to match their speed before announcing my presence.
*Horses panic at anything, silent or not.


I have only had a horse panic when it was a face on approach. When
approaching from behind the rider needs to know.


A horse noticed my 3.5 litre V8 Range Rover approaching from behind.
The rider was very annoyed when I overtook in 1st gear.


I expect you took great pleasure from it.
  #227  
Old August 8th 18, 09:13 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
[email protected]
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Posts: 489
Default Stolen Bike

On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 9:00:43 PM UTC+1, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
I look forward to the day oil
runs out and we go back to a simpler more natural way of living.


What about my BP shares and pension?
  #228  
Old August 8th 18, 09:17 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
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Posts: 3,875
Default Stolen Bike

On 08/08/18 20:43, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 19:20:56 +0100, TMS320 wrote:


It is a special case when stationary.


Why are you making so much fuss about the "correct use of a horn"?
OCD is a DISORDER. Get it fixed.


Why do you make so much fuss about "correct use of a indicators"? OCD
is a DISORDER. Get it fixed.

Perhaps you mean something like this? It is is harder seen from a
driver's perspective than from a high mounted camera. No need.
Adjust speed according to what can be seen.

https://goo.gl/maps/9MSMX69BxzM2 https://goo.gl/maps/R48YMSxzjQk

Incidentally, the bridge has a 2t mgw limit so several drivers
shown here are breaking the rules - plus many others plus a council
official with a Range Rover that knows full well.


WTF are you on about? I can clearly see what's coming the other way,
that is not a blind bridge whatsoever. Unless it's because the
camera is higher up than most drivers.


Cast your eyes up a few lines...

If the horn was not so unpleasant, the administrators that defined
the 90dbA standard understood physics and the pad on the steering
wheel was force sensing to allow the driver to add expression it
might be more acceptable.


What do you mean? Are you suggesting it should be louder if you
press harder?


Quieter if tapped softly.
  #229  
Old August 8th 18, 09:38 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Posts: 581
Default Stolen Bike

On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 21:17:51 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

On 08/08/18 20:43, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 19:20:56 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

It is a special case when stationary.

Why are you making so much fuss about the "correct use of a horn"?
OCD is a DISORDER. Get it fixed.


Why do you make so much fuss about "correct use of a indicators"? OCD
is a DISORDER. Get it fixed.

Perhaps you mean something like this? It is is harder seen from a
driver's perspective than from a high mounted camera. No need.
Adjust speed according to what can be seen.
https://goo.gl/maps/9MSMX69BxzM2 https://goo.gl/maps/R48YMSxzjQk
Incidentally, the bridge has a 2t mgw limit so several drivers
shown here are breaking the rules - plus many others plus a council
official with a Range Rover that knows full well.

WTF are you on about? I can clearly see what's coming the other way,
that is not a blind bridge whatsoever. Unless it's because the
camera is higher up than most drivers.


Cast your eyes up a few lines...


Try waffling less. So what was your point? I never hoot at those. I
just slow down.

If the horn was not so unpleasant, the administrators that defined
the 90dbA standard understood physics and the pad on the steering
wheel was force sensing to allow the driver to add expression it
might be more acceptable.

What do you mean? Are you suggesting it should be louder if you
press harder?


Quieter if tapped softly.


That would just make them go unnoticed. A horn should always be as loud
as possible to inform the arsehole that he failed to drive correctly.
  #230  
Old August 8th 18, 09:38 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Posts: 581
Default Stolen Bike

On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 21:13:27 +0100, wrote:

On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 9:00:43 PM UTC+1, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
wrote:
I look forward to the day oil
runs out and we go back to a simpler more natural way of living.


What about my BP shares and pension?


Why did you work for the evil oil company if you're a naturalist cyclist?
 




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