Biker killed by Pick up

"Frank Knox" writes:

Two things bother me in addition to the obvious sadness I feel that
a cyclist was killed.

Pick-up trucks don't run over cyclists. Drivers do. Whether
careless or malicious, a driver ran over Mr. Walters. It bothers me
how anonymous these drivers are allowed to be in reports.

Many newspapers will not report the name of an accused individual
until the person has been arrested or police announce they are looking
for an individual. The police often to not release the name of
someone they are looking for to try to avoid tipping off the suspect.

It worries me that police do not treat cyclists equally. In many
accidents, the auto driver seems to go without any punishment when a
cyclist is involved. Were another motor vehicle involved in the
same accident, the driver at fault would receive a ticket or worse.
Police are paid to enforce the law. When they ignore laws giving us
status as legal vehicles, they are not doing their job.

I think you had better be able to back this up with some facts.

Sorry to be so blunt on my 1st post here, but some of you in this thread
just do not have a clue.

The accident is still being investigated.
That is the reason there have been no charges filed.

I can not speak directly to the case.
I can speak of the following:

There was a cold, heavy rain all day in the area the day before, and
cleared up around midnight.

Temps dropped to high 20's to low 30's overnight, and into the
morning.

Fog developed in the area about an hour before the accident involving
the bike rider.

At 2 different other separate locations in the area that morning, there
were multi-vehicle accidents in the same time frame as the bicycle
accident:
One with 10 vehicles.
Ice on the roads were contributing factors in those 2 accidents.

The area where the accident involving the cyclist occurred is shaded by
terrain for a good part of the morning, especially this time of year.

If there are charges to be filed, they will be filed at the conclusion
of the investigation.

2 of the Deputies involved in the accident investigation are road
bicyclists in the area.

The non-reactionaries here should be able to draw a pretty clear
picture.

That is all.


--
AZCOP

Sorry to be so blunt on my 1st post here, but some of you in this thread
just do not have a clue.

The accident is still being investigated.
That is the reason there have been no charges filed.

I can not speak directly to the case.
I can speak of the following:

There was a cold, heavy rain all day in the area the day before, and
cleared up around midnight.

Temps dropped to high 20's to low 30's overnight, and into the
morning.

Fog developed in the area about an hour before the accident involving
the bike rider.

At 2 different other separate locations in the area that morning, there
were multi-vehicle accidents in the same time frame as the bicycle
accident:
One with 10 vehicles.
Ice on the roads were contributing factors in those 2 accidents.

The area where the accident involving the cyclist occurred is shaded by
terrain for a good part of the morning, especially this time of year.

If there are charges to be filed, they will be filed at the conclusion
of the investigation.

2 of the Deputies involved in the accident investigation are road
bicyclists in the area.

The non-reactionaries here should be able to draw a pretty clear
picture.

That is all.


--
AZCOP

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
"Frank Knox" writes:

Two things bother me in addition to the obvious sadness I feel that
a cyclist was killed.

Pick-up trucks don't run over cyclists. Drivers do. Whether
careless or malicious, a driver ran over Mr. Walters. It bothers me
how anonymous these drivers are allowed to be in reports.

Many newspapers will not report the name of an accused individual
until the person has been arrested or police announce they are looking
for an individual. The police often to not release the name of
someone they are looking for to try to avoid tipping off the suspect.

It worries me that police do not treat cyclists equally. In many
accidents, the auto driver seems to go without any punishment when a
cyclist is involved. Were another motor vehicle involved in the
same accident, the driver at fault would receive a ticket or worse.
Police are paid to enforce the law. When they ignore laws giving us
status as legal vehicles, they are not doing their job.

I think you had better be able to back this up with some facts.

I can only relate facts as they are in *my* area.
My club held a memorial ride for a member today.
She was killed by a careless driver who cut a curve, entering her lane, and
hit her head-on. There were two other cyclists who were witnesses. The
police did not accurately report the accident and did not question or accept
statements from the two witnesses.
Only after a front page article in the local paper and many calls to the
highway patrol captain and district attorney from club members and concerned
citizens in our community was the driver charged with a misdemeanor. There
was no ongoing investigation at all.
In North Carolina, robbing someone of $20 is a felony but stealing the life
of a 22 year old girl while driving irresponsibly is a misdemeanor.

Several years ago my uncle and aunt were on a club ride in Virginia. A
deputy stopped them and told them to get off of the road and ride on the
grass or face arrest.

People on bikes in my area ride the wrong way, run stoplights and signs, and
weave through traffic. The police here *never* ticket them. The traffic
laws simply are not enforced with regard to cyclists. This encourages
people to ride bicycles in an unpredictable way and endangers all of us.
It's no wonder local motorists do not understand our right to the road and
become confused when experienced cyclists do obey the traffic laws.

Another recent story as related to me by one of our club members:
Several weeks ago one of our club members was knocked off his bike while
making a left turn. A driver behind him drove around him in the middle of
the intersection while he was in his proper turn lane and hit him. When the
responding Greenville Police Officer asked the driver why he did that the
driver responded that he thought he could make it around the cyclist before
he finished turning.
The policeman told them he was not going to cite anyone, but if he was he
would cite the cyclist because he shouldn't have been there.

Our club has just formed advocacy and education committees to help change
traffic laws and to educate the public and police about cycling safety
issues and their importance.

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
"Frank Knox" writes:

Two things bother me in addition to the obvious sadness I feel that
a cyclist was killed.

Pick-up trucks don't run over cyclists. Drivers do. Whether
careless or malicious, a driver ran over Mr. Walters. It bothers me
how anonymous these drivers are allowed to be in reports.

Many newspapers will not report the name of an accused individual
until the person has been arrested or police announce they are looking
for an individual. The police often to not release the name of
someone they are looking for to try to avoid tipping off the suspect.

It worries me that police do not treat cyclists equally. In many
accidents, the auto driver seems to go without any punishment when a
cyclist is involved. Were another motor vehicle involved in the
same accident, the driver at fault would receive a ticket or worse.
Police are paid to enforce the law. When they ignore laws giving us
status as legal vehicles, they are not doing their job.

I think you had better be able to back this up with some facts.

I can only relate facts as they are in *my* area.
My club held a memorial ride for a member today.
She was killed by a careless driver who cut a curve, entering her lane, and
hit her head-on. There were two other cyclists who were witnesses. The
police did not accurately report the accident and did not question or accept
statements from the two witnesses.
Only after a front page article in the local paper and many calls to the
highway patrol captain and district attorney from club members and concerned
citizens in our community was the driver charged with a misdemeanor. There
was no ongoing investigation at all.
In North Carolina, robbing someone of $20 is a felony but stealing the life
of a 22 year old girl while driving irresponsibly is a misdemeanor.

Several years ago my uncle and aunt were on a club ride in Virginia. A
deputy stopped them and told them to get off of the road and ride on the
grass or face arrest.

People on bikes in my area ride the wrong way, run stoplights and signs, and
weave through traffic. The police here *never* ticket them. The traffic
laws simply are not enforced with regard to cyclists. This encourages
people to ride bicycles in an unpredictable way and endangers all of us.
It's no wonder local motorists do not understand our right to the road and
become confused when experienced cyclists do obey the traffic laws.

Another recent story as related to me by one of our club members:
Several weeks ago one of our club members was knocked off his bike while
making a left turn. A driver behind him drove around him in the middle of
the intersection while he was in his proper turn lane and hit him. When the
responding Greenville Police Officer asked the driver why he did that the
driver responded that he thought he could make it around the cyclist before
he finished turning.
The policeman told them he was not going to cite anyone, but if he was he
would cite the cyclist because he shouldn't have been there.

Our club has just formed advocacy and education committees to help change
traffic laws and to educate the public and police about cycling safety
issues and their importance.

"Frank Knox" writes:

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
"Frank Knox" writes:

It worries me that police do not treat cyclists equally. In many
accidents, the auto driver seems to go without any punishment
when a cyclist is involved. Were another motor vehicle involved
in the same accident, the driver at fault would receive a ticket
or worse. Police are paid to enforce the law. When they ignore
laws giving us status as legal vehicles, they are not doing their
job.

I think you had better be able to back this up with some facts.

I can only relate facts as they are in *my* area. My club held a
memorial ride for a member today. She was killed by a careless
driver who cut a curve, entering her lane, and hit her head-on.
There were two other cyclists who were witnesses. The police did
not accurately report the accident and did not question or accept
statements from the two witnesses. Only after a front page article
in the local paper and many calls to the highway patrol captain and
district attorney from club members and concerned citizens in our
community was the driver charged with a misdemeanor. There was no
ongoing investigation at all. In North Carolina, robbing someone of
$20 is a felony but stealing the life of a 22 year old girl while
driving irresponsibly is a misdemeanor.

I think you are missing something here, or coming to conclusions based
on emotional reasoning, but not having lived in your part of the world
I do not know for certain.

Several years ago my uncle and aunt were on a club ride in Virginia.
A deputy stopped them and told them to get off of the road and ride
on the grass or face arrest.

Not knowing the laws in your state, I cannot comment very well.
However, if that happened to me I'd be having a cell phone
conversation with the watch commander ASAP. As a citizen and a
taxpayer, my rights are every bit the equal of anyone else's. Hell, I
might have called the deputy's bluff and let him arrest me and played
it out in court.

People on bikes in my area ride the wrong way, run stoplights and
signs, and weave through traffic. The police here *never* ticket
them. The traffic laws simply are not enforced with regard to
cyclists. This encourages people to ride bicycles in an
unpredictable way and endangers all of us. It's no wonder local
motorists do not understand our right to the road and become
confused when experienced cyclists do obey the traffic laws.

This unfortunately is normal in most places. It stems in part from
there being no driver's license for bicycling (riding a bike, like
walking, is more along the lines of a right than a privilege) and
thus there is relatively little government hold over cyclists. Some
cops may just figure than natural consequences will take care of the
problem, sort of a vehicular Darwinism. I happen to agree, though,
that traffic laws should be enforced for all road users. However,
90% of drivers break the law on a daily basis as well...

Another recent story as related to me by one of our club members:
Several weeks ago one of our club members was knocked off his bike
while making a left turn. A driver behind him drove around him in
the middle of the intersection while he was in his proper turn lane
and hit him. When the responding Greenville Police Officer asked
the driver why he did that the driver responded that he thought he
could make it around the cyclist before he finished turning. The
policeman told them he was not going to cite anyone, but if he was
he would cite the cyclist because he shouldn't have been there.

Then again you need to get badge numbers and have a conversation with
the watch commander, chief of police, mayor, city council, etc.
Assert yourself as a taxpayer, citizen and voter. If you let
ill-informed cops get away with not knowing their jobs vis a vis
bicyclists, the situation will not get better.

Our club has just formed advocacy and education committees to help
change traffic laws and to educate the public and police about
cycling safety issues and their importance.

Excellent.

Let me tell you a story of my own. About 7 years ago I was on a club
ride with the Gopher Wheelmen in Roseville MN. We were northbound on
Victoria, riding in a double paceline on the shoulder, which was
about 6 feet wide at that point. I was the last rider in line. A
vehicle stopped to make a left hand turn into a nursing home parking
lot and was rear-ended by a woman driving past the bicyclists. She
got out of the car and immediately began blaming us for being "all
over the road" and for distracting her, causing the accident.
The police were called and we all decided to wait since we were
witnesses. In the meantime we pushed the rear-ended car off the road
and checked on the condition of the elderly woman in the passenger
seat.

When the police arrived, the woman launched into her complaint that
the bikers were "all over the road" and distracted her, causing the
accident. The officer- a good ol' boy looking potbellied character
smelling of coffee and doughnuts, all the usual stereotypes- held up
his hand and said, "Ma'am, they have the right to ride on the road.
They have the right to be in the traffic lanes. They have the right
to take the entire lane if they have to for their safety. It's your
job to pay attention to the road and to your driving." He then wrote
her a ticket for careless driving, and told us to have a nice ride
after taking our names as witnesses.

That's how it should be done, and I encourage you to hold your law
enforcement officers to similar standards. I hope your efforts work
out well.

"Frank Knox" writes:

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
"Frank Knox" writes:

It worries me that police do not treat cyclists equally. In many
accidents, the auto driver seems to go without any punishment
when a cyclist is involved. Were another motor vehicle involved
in the same accident, the driver at fault would receive a ticket
or worse. Police are paid to enforce the law. When they ignore
laws giving us status as legal vehicles, they are not doing their
job.

I think you had better be able to back this up with some facts.

I can only relate facts as they are in *my* area. My club held a
memorial ride for a member today. She was killed by a careless
driver who cut a curve, entering her lane, and hit her head-on.
There were two other cyclists who were witnesses. The police did
not accurately report the accident and did not question or accept
statements from the two witnesses. Only after a front page article
in the local paper and many calls to the highway patrol captain and
district attorney from club members and concerned citizens in our
community was the driver charged with a misdemeanor. There was no
ongoing investigation at all. In North Carolina, robbing someone of
$20 is a felony but stealing the life of a 22 year old girl while
driving irresponsibly is a misdemeanor.

I think you are missing something here, or coming to conclusions based
on emotional reasoning, but not having lived in your part of the world
I do not know for certain.

Several years ago my uncle and aunt were on a club ride in Virginia.
A deputy stopped them and told them to get off of the road and ride
on the grass or face arrest.

Not knowing the laws in your state, I cannot comment very well.
However, if that happened to me I'd be having a cell phone
conversation with the watch commander ASAP. As a citizen and a
taxpayer, my rights are every bit the equal of anyone else's. Hell, I
might have called the deputy's bluff and let him arrest me and played
it out in court.

People on bikes in my area ride the wrong way, run stoplights and
signs, and weave through traffic. The police here *never* ticket
them. The traffic laws simply are not enforced with regard to
cyclists. This encourages people to ride bicycles in an
unpredictable way and endangers all of us. It's no wonder local
motorists do not understand our right to the road and become
confused when experienced cyclists do obey the traffic laws.

This unfortunately is normal in most places. It stems in part from
there being no driver's license for bicycling (riding a bike, like
walking, is more along the lines of a right than a privilege) and
thus there is relatively little government hold over cyclists. Some
cops may just figure than natural consequences will take care of the
problem, sort of a vehicular Darwinism. I happen to agree, though,
that traffic laws should be enforced for all road users. However,
90% of drivers break the law on a daily basis as well...

Another recent story as related to me by one of our club members:
Several weeks ago one of our club members was knocked off his bike
while making a left turn. A driver behind him drove around him in
the middle of the intersection while he was in his proper turn lane
and hit him. When the responding Greenville Police Officer asked
the driver why he did that the driver responded that he thought he
could make it around the cyclist before he finished turning. The
policeman told them he was not going to cite anyone, but if he was
he would cite the cyclist because he shouldn't have been there.

Then again you need to get badge numbers and have a conversation with
the watch commander, chief of police, mayor, city council, etc.
Assert yourself as a taxpayer, citizen and voter. If you let
ill-informed cops get away with not knowing their jobs vis a vis
bicyclists, the situation will not get better.

Our club has just formed advocacy and education committees to help
change traffic laws and to educate the public and police about
cycling safety issues and their importance.

Excellent.

Let me tell you a story of my own. About 7 years ago I was on a club
ride with the Gopher Wheelmen in Roseville MN. We were northbound on
Victoria, riding in a double paceline on the shoulder, which was
about 6 feet wide at that point. I was the last rider in line. A
vehicle stopped to make a left hand turn into a nursing home parking
lot and was rear-ended by a woman driving past the bicyclists. She
got out of the car and immediately began blaming us for being "all
over the road" and for distracting her, causing the accident.
The police were called and we all decided to wait since we were
witnesses. In the meantime we pushed the rear-ended car off the road
and checked on the condition of the elderly woman in the passenger
seat.

When the police arrived, the woman launched into her complaint that
the bikers were "all over the road" and distracted her, causing the
accident. The officer- a good ol' boy looking potbellied character
smelling of coffee and doughnuts, all the usual stereotypes- held up
his hand and said, "Ma'am, they have the right to ride on the road.
They have the right to be in the traffic lanes. They have the right
to take the entire lane if they have to for their safety. It's your
job to pay attention to the road and to your driving." He then wrote
her a ticket for careless driving, and told us to have a nice ride
after taking our names as witnesses.

That's how it should be done, and I encourage you to hold your law
enforcement officers to similar standards. I hope your efforts work
out well.

AZCOP wrote in message ...
Sorry to be so blunt on my 1st post here, but some of you in this thread
just do not have a clue.

The accident is still being investigated.
That is the reason there have been no charges filed.

I can not speak directly to the case.
I can speak of the following:

There was a cold, heavy rain all day in the area the day before, and
cleared up around midnight.

Temps dropped to high 20's to low 30's overnight, and into the
morning.

Fog developed in the area about an hour before the accident involving
the bike rider.

At 2 different other separate locations in the area that morning, there
were multi-vehicle accidents in the same time frame as the bicycle
accident:
One with 10 vehicles.
Ice on the roads were contributing factors in those 2 accidents.

The area where the accident involving the cyclist occurred is shaded by
terrain for a good part of the morning, especially this time of year.

If there are charges to be filed, they will be filed at the conclusion
of the investigation.

2 of the Deputies involved in the accident investigation are road
bicyclists in the area.

The non-reactionaries here should be able to draw a pretty clear
picture.

That is all.


Thanks for providing a rational picture of the general conditions. I
was a resident of Flagstaff for a number of years so I am familiar
with the types of conditions that can occur and the general area of
the accident. I think it is reasonable to wait until the facts are in
before getting reactionary.

- rick

AZCOP wrote in message ...
Sorry to be so blunt on my 1st post here, but some of you in this thread
just do not have a clue.

The accident is still being investigated.
That is the reason there have been no charges filed.

I can not speak directly to the case.
I can speak of the following:

There was a cold, heavy rain all day in the area the day before, and
cleared up around midnight.

Temps dropped to high 20's to low 30's overnight, and into the
morning.

Fog developed in the area about an hour before the accident involving
the bike rider.

At 2 different other separate locations in the area that morning, there
were multi-vehicle accidents in the same time frame as the bicycle
accident:
One with 10 vehicles.
Ice on the roads were contributing factors in those 2 accidents.

The area where the accident involving the cyclist occurred is shaded by
terrain for a good part of the morning, especially this time of year.

If there are charges to be filed, they will be filed at the conclusion
of the investigation.

2 of the Deputies involved in the accident investigation are road
bicyclists in the area.

The non-reactionaries here should be able to draw a pretty clear
picture.

That is all.


Thanks for providing a rational picture of the general conditions. I
was a resident of Flagstaff for a number of years so I am familiar
with the types of conditions that can occur and the general area of
the accident. I think it is reasonable to wait until the facts are in
before getting reactionary.

- rick