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Be still my speeding heart



 
 
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  #41  
Old April 18th 08, 10:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Be still my speeding heart

On Apr 17, 6:49*pm, wrote:
On Apr 17, 1:06 pm, Andre Jute wrote:



On Apr 17, 12:56 pm, wrote:


On Apr 16, 6:16 pm, Mike wrote:


In article , says...


Nor is it only "outliers" who need to know their MHR. No exercise
regime can be devised without consideration of heart rate zones, and
those are all defined as percentages of MHR.


Regardless of the respective pros and cons of utilising heart-rate monitors to maximise the benefits of excercise, this
is just wrong. It is only over the last decade that heart-rate monitors have become readily available for the general
population (and not that much longer for the elite athelete). But prior to this, successful excercise regimes were
devised and used. And for the average 'weekend' sportsperson (and for almost any sport), it is still usually sufficient
to just choose a sensible mixture of resistance, endurance, and sprint training without measuring, monitoring or even
considering MHR. Common sense, and a little advice from a trainer if you really think you need it, is usually enough
for most of us. Heartrate-shmeartrate...


Mike


The latest Cycle Sport has an interview with Remy DiGregorio, from the
Francaise de Jeux pro team, who says that he almost never races or
trains with a heart monitor or computer. *If you don't need to know
your heart rate to solo off the front wire to wire in a Dauphine
stage, you certainly don't need it to ride around the block.


One thing wrong with this rose-tinted picture. You aren't Remy
DiGregorio, *and you will never be: you'll never "solo off the front
wire to wire in a Dauphine stage". -- AJ


Perhaps not, but I will ride around the block. *And I won't do it with
my eyes glued to my heart rate monitor listening intently for it to
beep telling me to slow down. *Somehow, I might even enjoy the
experience of being on the bike.


"With my eyes glued to my heart rate monitor listening intently for it
to
beep" -- do you listen with your eyes? That's some trick!
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  #42  
Old April 18th 08, 10:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Be still my speeding heart

On Apr 17, 6:46*pm, wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:18 pm, Andre Jute wrote:



On Apr 16, 6:07 pm, wrote:


On Apr 16, 9:58 am, Andre Jute wrote:


On Apr 16, 2:05 pm, wrote:


On Apr 15, 8:26 pm, Andre Jute wrote:


On Apr 11, 7:22 am, "


wrote:


Using a formula to figure your max HR is like fitting your shoes based
on measuring the circumfrence of your head. Some correlation for a
population probably, but near usless for an individual. The only way
to find out what max HR is is to induce it.


Joseph


Congratulations, Joseph. Your reckless attitude has just put more
people off cycling than the entire membership of RBT. Medical advice
is that maximum heartrate should be established under medical
supervision. Inducing maximum heart rate any old how, without any idea
of what approximately it can be or should be, is very likely a recipe
for pain or hurt or worse for an entire age group of wannabe cyclists
(an age group pretty well represented on RBT, it seems).


As it happens, I was taking various tests for my heart, and asked the
people administering the treadmill test to establish my maximum
heartrate, and learned from them that a pretty good correlation exists
between the population and some of the more complicated formulae than
the idiot's mnemonic of 220 minus age (most people leave off the
necessary "plus/minus ten per cent" which defines the limits of
confidence of this shortcut). Here's a formula that works well:
Maximum heart rate approaches:
210 - (half age in years) - (0.11*(weight in kg)) + 4


Andre Jutehttp://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html


That's still off by nearly 10 beats per minute in my case, which is
not acceptable. *The problem with statistical correlations like that
is that they're based on the average population.


The advantage of the statistical determination of the normal
distribution of some universe, in this case maximum heart rate by age
subdivisions of the populace, is that it is a scientific method,
unlike the anecdotal witterings of self-declared "experts" in virtual
space. But nobody claims that statistical methods lead to perfect
judgements: their very nature is to provide a guideline within defined
limits of confidence.


And here I thought that the scientific method had something to do with
actually testing a hypothesis rather than trying to infer the answer
from someone else's tests on a potentially unrelated sample group.


I can understand why you're "Unforgiven" and very probably
unforgivable. You just don't pay attention when people speak. If the
hypothesis is, "The mean (more likely median) heart rate of Everyman
differs by gender and by age brackets." then the correct scientific
method is to investigate a sample from the universe, divided
proportionately to each sub-universe by gender and age. No "inference"
is required because the answer is directly to the point of the
question. If someone else has done the work, and it is statistically
sound, who do it again? It is childish to point out the tautological
truth that tests might be on "a potentially unrelated sample group" --
do you really think that I didn't enquire closely into the sample
group? (More pointedly, that you behave like an idiot is no reason for
assuming the rest of us do.) If the sample group is determined to be
the right one, than the dumb debater's "potential" sampling error is
just that, a numbingly dumb debating trick. Even electrical engineers
are smarter than to try such kindergarten tricks when there are adults
around .Beyond these jerk-up stupidities in the single paragraph
above, you offer no facts, no argument, nothing, just your McCarthyite
suspicion of "potential" sampling error. You're wasting my time.


Andre Jute
Deeply disappointed


Anyone who actually
needs to know their max heart rate is most likely an outlier in one
direction or another.


And that is where this thread started, when I twitted Joseph on giving
advice that John Q Public would see as reckless, coming down, as
Joseph's advice does, to "run until you fall down and that is your max
heart rate". Because we are not talking about athletes and suchlike
(those who are already "outliers") but about getting Jane Doe to take
up cycling or some other form of exercise. And most Jane Does will
fall right under the bulge of the Bell Curve.


Nor is it only "outliers" who need to know their MHR. No exercise
regime can be devised without consideration of heart rate zones, and
those are all defined as percentages of MHR.


Furthermore, the anecdotal evidence of those whose anecdotal evidence
has the value of experience (say RBT posters) in this case almost
certainly arises from a group in which individuals know their MHR
pretty closely. They may thus be "outliers" but they are not
*ignorant* outliers as you're trying to claim. I think it very likely
that exactly the opposite of your statement is true, that those who
need to know their MHR in most cases already know their MHR.


This is a storm in a chamberpot that blew up because Joseph overstated
a case that only required the words "for regular cyclists" or some
such to be added to be acceptable.


Andre Jutehttp://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING..html


If the mean is the hypothesis. *If the question is maximum heart rate
for an individual, you either test it or you make up excuses not to.


You really are mindlessly intent on having the last word. The median
in the age/gender subuniverse is the question for the individual as a
first approximation for his individual MHR; there is no conflict
between the concepts. You're the only one making excuses -- for not
having your mind in gear.

Are we nearly done yet?

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/B...20CYCLING.html
 




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