New Brooks B17 Conditioning Question

Like tubulars versus clinchers, how wheels support a load, hydration and
what have you, Brooks saddles are high in mythtique.

They're just saddles. It's not really a big deal. The myths, as
always, come from not taking a practical and systematic approach.

Brooks saddles are wider than most current saddles, and instead of
relying on padding for comfort they rely on flexing of the top. For
many people this works well, for some it doesn't. YBMV.

Don't do anything to it other than a light dressing top and bottom with
Proofide or Obenauf's. If you live in a wet part of the world, consider
dubbin which is a bit more water repellent (in the U.S., serious hunting
clothing stores will have dubbin). Don't soak it in neatsfoot oil, that
just ruins the leather and will leave your shorts soaked in oil for many
rides. I don't know why Sheldon would recommend that. It's just a bad
idea. IIRC Lon Haldeman recommends soaking a new Brooks in motor oil
overnight. Jeepers. He reportedly replaces his saddle every couple of
years, so no surprise there. I don't do these things to my saddles, and
they last for years. I have a Brooks Pro which I bought in 1977 or 1978
and still use on most rides. I've probably ridden over 100,000 miles on
that saddle.

If the leather becomes too soft, either through over-oiling or through
soaking in rainwater while riding, a central ridge will form and the
saddle will become- in the immortal words of Jobst Brandt- an ass
hatchet. If you ride in the rain, cover the saddle especially if you
don't have fenders. A plastic bag looks funny but works fine and is
easy to carry on days which might include rain.

Be systematic about setting up your Brooks. First, look at it and
understand how it works. There is a fairly rigid steel frame with a
pair of saddle rails, a C shaped rear frame and a steel nose piece with
tensioning bolt. The leather is under tension, and supports your weight
by flexing as you sit on it. Modern plastic saddles are either rigid
and use padding for comfort, or a combination of shell flex and padding.
The Brooks just uses flex to provide comfort by suspending the rider
between the nose piece and the rear frame.

Now look at it from the side. Notice that the rear deck of the saddle
is wide and fairly flat, like sitting on a park bench. It is also
raised above the neck of the saddle, which is intended to keep your
weight on your sit bones and off your peri area so that you are not
compressing the nerves and blood vessels to your genitals.

This tells you a lot about how to set the saddle up. The leather
flexes, the steel doesn't. So don't sit on the steel! Lots of people
set up Brooks saddles too far forward, and thus they sit on the steel
rear frame rather than on the flexible leather in front of the steel
frame. Ouch. You want your sit bones to be about an inch ahead of the
steel rear frame, so that you get the benefits of the flex. This means
that you may need to set a Brooks farther back than your current saddle.
That, in turn, means you may need to buy a seatpost with more setback
because Brooks saddles have short rails. Check where you sit on your
current saddle and use that as a gauge for setting the fore-aft position
of the saddle. Measure from your handlebars to the sit bone dents on
your current saddle, and then use that measurement to set the Brooks so
that this point is about 1 inch ahead of the Brooks's rear frame. You
may need to tweak the saddle forwards or backwards to maximize comfort.

Now, remember that the rear deck of the saddle is higher? IMHO the best
starting point for setting the saddle angle is to have the rear deck
about 5 mm higher than the nose of the saddle. That gets your naughty
bits off the saddle slightly. Put the bike on level ground and use a
long carpenter's level to set the angle.

Ride the bike. You'll probably feel like you're sliding downhill
towards the handlebars. It'll take some getting used to, but your brain
will learn to keep you positioned by using your legs. You will need to
gently tweak the angle of the saddle and the fore-aft position to
maximize your comfort. It'll take a few weeks, probably to get it
dialed in. And it'll take a couple weeks to break the saddle in. B.17s
break in quickly (for me, they are comfortable out of the box).

Now, as to saddle model. This page lists the lengths and widths of the
various Brooks saddles:

http://www.wallbike.com/brooks/standardsaddles.html

If you sit fairly upright, the B.17 or one of the "S" models might suit
you best. The "S" stands for "short" and are usually considered
"women's" saddles. There is no reason that men can't use them and I
have known men who do, quite comfortably. However, it is possible that
the short nose may not offer enough support for your boys and may leave
'em hanging, if you know what I mean. If you have lower bars and lean
forward quite a bit, then the B.17 or even a Pro might be a better
choice. If you buy your saddle from Wallingford Bikes (wallbike.com),
talk to them. They help people pick saddles a lot and have gotten quite
good at it, by reputation.

My favorite saddle is the Brooks Pro. I find the B.17 a smidge too
wide. But the B.17 is by far the most popular Brooks saddle.

Hope this helps!

In article om,
wrote:

neetsfoot oil works with repeated applications. Turn the bike or
saddle upside down and use a 1" paint brush to brush a liberal amount
on the entire raw leather. Repeat this 6 to 15 times and letting it
soak in overnight between applications. After the first 3 or 4
ride thesaddle to work the oil in. If,by some miracle it gets too
soft tighten the bolt underrneath the nose of the saddle.

This is a recipe for a ruined Brooks saddle.

In article . com,
" wrote:

I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
miles twice daily.

I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
conditioning the leather.

Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?
Hopefully overnight will be long enough. (I know there will be ongoing
maintenance and rain-awareness.)

I am really excited about this new bike enhancement. I'm not sure I
will *ever* get this Pocket Tourist exactly right...

TIA - Jay

My first Brooks was a B17N a few years ago. It broke in fairly quickly,
I was comfortable on it within 100 miles or so. It took considerably
longer for the leather to become soft, but it didn't take too long for
the saddle to shape itself to me.

I just recent got a Brooks Professional, which is proving to be a bit
tougher. I've had it for 200 to 300 miles now, and it is still feels
hard.

I've only used proofhide on them.

In article
,
Tim McNamara wrote:

Be systematic about setting up your Brooks. First, look at it and
understand how it works. There is a fairly rigid steel frame with a
pair of saddle rails, a C shaped rear frame and a steel nose piece with
tensioning bolt. The leather is under tension, and supports your weight
by flexing as you sit on it. Modern plastic saddles are either rigid
and use padding for comfort, or a combination of shell flex and padding.
The Brooks just uses flex to provide comfort by suspending the rider
between the nose piece and the rear frame.

The saddle flexes to buffer road shock, yes. There is one
refinement to this description. The ischeal tuberosities
penetrate into the leather when riding over road bumps,
and this temporary deformation of the leather into dimples
absorbs a surprising amount of shock.

--
Michael Press

In article
,
Mark Heiple wrote:

In article . com,
" wrote:

I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
miles twice daily.

I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
conditioning the leather.

Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?
Hopefully overnight will be long enough. (I know there will be ongoing
maintenance and rain-awareness.)

I am really excited about this new bike enhancement. I'm not sure I
will *ever* get this Pocket Tourist exactly right...

TIA - Jay

My first Brooks was a B17N a few years ago. It broke in fairly quickly,
I was comfortable on it within 100 miles or so. It took considerably
longer for the leather to become soft, but it didn't take too long for
the saddle to shape itself to me.

I just recent got a Brooks Professional, which is proving to be a bit
tougher. I've had it for 200 to 300 miles now, and it is still feels
hard.

I've only used proofhide on them.

Position is important. Find a place to ride where you can
devote most of your attention to sensing you riding
position. Put your ischeal tuberosities in the sweet spot
of the saddle. Adjust the saddle as necessary.

The saddle should not feel soft to the hand. It is there
to support a goodly fraction of your body weight over a
small fraction of your body. The pressures are large, and
the saddle is designed to flex and deform under these
pressures.

--
Michael Press

In article ,
Michael Press wrote:

In article ,
Tim McNamara wrote:

Be systematic about setting up your Brooks. First, look at it and
understand how it works. There is a fairly rigid steel frame with
a pair of saddle rails, a C shaped rear frame and a steel nose
piece with tensioning bolt. The leather is under tension, and
supports your weight by flexing as you sit on it. Modern plastic
saddles are either rigid and use padding for comfort, or a
combination of shell flex and padding. The Brooks just uses flex
to provide comfort by suspending the rider between the nose piece
and the rear frame.

The saddle flexes to buffer road shock, yes. There is one refinement
to this description. The ischeal tuberosities penetrate into the
leather when riding over road bumps, and this temporary deformation
of the leather into dimples absorbs a surprising amount of shock.

I have no way of measuring or observing that. I just know that I find
Brooks Pro saddles the most comfortable, being comfortable for well over
100 miles and comfortable enough up to 380 miles in a weekend.

My next saddle of choice is the Lepper Voyageur, which is very similar
in construction, but with hollow steel rails and frame. There have been
a lot of complaints of breakage of the saddle rails, but thus far I have
not had any problem. Perhaps I just got lucky, or it's an issue of seat
post clamp design, or overtightening the clamp. Who knows.

Thanks for the detailed reply, Tim!

(Hopefully you can just cut-and-paste for the next guy with a similar
question.)

I think this discussion has definitively answered the question of why
the industry has migrated from proper leather saddles to (whatever
composite / gel /etc.) SEATS. Leather saddles require a little EFFORT
and THOUGHT on the part of the rider/owner. They also require a little
time spent with the prospective bike owner at bike sale time, by a bike
salesman who probably has little more than a friendly smile working for
him (little technical knowledge of saddles or any other bike
components). So this is just another example of our USA society/culture
being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

I have a farm/ranch background, and as far as I know, saddles for
horses are still exclusively made of leather. I'm thinkin', there must
be a good reason for this, since those guys are riding for days /
weeks, in all kinds of weather. They can't be obsessed with whether it
will rain or not. Leather must be a time-tested material for quality
saddles (horse or bike).

OK, there I go preaching again. I promise to stop sometime in the
future.

- Jay

Tim McNamara wrote:
Like tubulars versus clinchers, how wheels support a load, hydration and
what have you, Brooks saddles are high in mythtique.

They're just saddles. It's not really a big deal. The myths, as
always, come from not taking a practical and systematic approach.

Brooks saddles are wider than most current saddles, and instead of
relying on padding for comfort they rely on flexing of the top. For
many people this works well, for some it doesn't. YBMV.

Don't do anything to it other than a light dressing top and bottom with
Proofide or Obenauf's. If you live in a wet part of the world, consider
dubbin which is a bit more water repellent (in the U.S., serious hunting
clothing stores will have dubbin). Don't soak it in neatsfoot oil, that
just ruins the leather and will leave your shorts soaked in oil for many
rides. I don't know why Sheldon would recommend that. It's just a bad
idea. IIRC Lon Haldeman recommends soaking a new Brooks in motor oil
overnight. Jeepers. He reportedly replaces his saddle every couple of
years, so no surprise there. I don't do these things to my saddles, and
they last for years. I have a Brooks Pro which I bought in 1977 or 1978
and still use on most rides. I've probably ridden over 100,000 miles on
that saddle.

If the leather becomes too soft, either through over-oiling or through
soaking in rainwater while riding, a central ridge will form and the
saddle will become- in the immortal words of Jobst Brandt- an ass
hatchet. If you ride in the rain, cover the saddle especially if you
don't have fenders. A plastic bag looks funny but works fine and is
easy to carry on days which might include rain.

Be systematic about setting up your Brooks. First, look at it and
understand how it works. There is a fairly rigid steel frame with a
pair of saddle rails, a C shaped rear frame and a steel nose piece with
tensioning bolt. The leather is under tension, and supports your weight
by flexing as you sit on it. Modern plastic saddles are either rigid
and use padding for comfort, or a combination of shell flex and padding.
The Brooks just uses flex to provide comfort by suspending the rider
between the nose piece and the rear frame.

Now look at it from the side. Notice that the rear deck of the saddle
is wide and fairly flat, like sitting on a park bench. It is also
raised above the neck of the saddle, which is intended to keep your
weight on your sit bones and off your peri area so that you are not
compressing the nerves and blood vessels to your genitals.

This tells you a lot about how to set the saddle up. The leather
flexes, the steel doesn't. So don't sit on the steel! Lots of people
set up Brooks saddles too far forward, and thus they sit on the steel
rear frame rather than on the flexible leather in front of the steel
frame. Ouch. You want your sit bones to be about an inch ahead of the
steel rear frame, so that you get the benefits of the flex. This means
that you may need to set a Brooks farther back than your current saddle.
That, in turn, means you may need to buy a seatpost with more setback
because Brooks saddles have short rails. Check where you sit on your
current saddle and use that as a gauge for setting the fore-aft position
of the saddle. Measure from your handlebars to the sit bone dents on
your current saddle, and then use that measurement to set the Brooks so
that this point is about 1 inch ahead of the Brooks's rear frame. You
may need to tweak the saddle forwards or backwards to maximize comfort.

Now, remember that the rear deck of the saddle is higher? IMHO the best
starting point for setting the saddle angle is to have the rear deck
about 5 mm higher than the nose of the saddle. That gets your naughty
bits off the saddle slightly. Put the bike on level ground and use a
long carpenter's level to set the angle.

Ride the bike. You'll probably feel like you're sliding downhill
towards the handlebars. It'll take some getting used to, but your brain
will learn to keep you positioned by using your legs. You will need to
gently tweak the angle of the saddle and the fore-aft position to
maximize your comfort. It'll take a few weeks, probably to get it
dialed in. And it'll take a couple weeks to break the saddle in. B.17s
break in quickly (for me, they are comfortable out of the box).

Now, as to saddle model. This page lists the lengths and widths of the
various Brooks saddles:

http://www.wallbike.com/brooks/standardsaddles.html

If you sit fairly upright, the B.17 or one of the "S" models might suit
you best. The "S" stands for "short" and are usually considered
"women's" saddles. There is no reason that men can't use them and I
have known men who do, quite comfortably. However, it is possible that
the short nose may not offer enough support for your boys and may leave
'em hanging, if you know what I mean. If you have lower bars and lean
forward quite a bit, then the B.17 or even a Pro might be a better
choice. If you buy your saddle from Wallingford Bikes (wallbike.com),
talk to them. They help people pick saddles a lot and have gotten quite
good at it, by reputation.

My favorite saddle is the Brooks Pro. I find the B.17 a smidge too
wide. But the B.17 is by far the most popular Brooks saddle.

Hope this helps!

Hi Michael,

You are right, some tweaking will be required. I am prepared to do
this. My reward will be a handsome leather saddle (appreciated by those
in the know), and a comfortable ride for many years to come.

- Jay

Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
Mark Heiple wrote:

In article . com,
" wrote:

I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
miles twice daily.

I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
conditioning the leather.

Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?
Hopefully overnight will be long enough. (I know there will be ongoing
maintenance and rain-awareness.)

I am really excited about this new bike enhancement. I'm not sure I
will *ever* get this Pocket Tourist exactly right...

TIA - Jay

My first Brooks was a B17N a few years ago. It broke in fairly quickly,
I was comfortable on it within 100 miles or so. It took considerably
longer for the leather to become soft, but it didn't take too long for
the saddle to shape itself to me.

I just recent got a Brooks Professional, which is proving to be a bit
tougher. I've had it for 200 to 300 miles now, and it is still feels
hard.

I've only used proofhide on them.

Position is important. Find a place to ride where you can
devote most of your attention to sensing you riding
position. Put your ischeal tuberosities in the sweet spot
of the saddle. Adjust the saddle as necessary.

The saddle should not feel soft to the hand. It is there
to support a goodly fraction of your body weight over a
small fraction of your body. The pressures are large, and
the saddle is designed to flex and deform under these
pressures.

--
Michael Press

Per Tim McNamara:
My next saddle of choice is the Lepper Voyageur, which is very similar
in construction, but with hollow steel rails and frame.

Does measure any wider than a B-17?
--
PeteCresswell

wrote:
Thanks for the detailed reply, Tim!

(Hopefully you can just cut-and-paste for the next guy with a similar
question.)

I think this discussion has definitively answered the question of why
the industry has migrated from proper leather saddles to (whatever
composite / gel /etc.) SEATS.

No, if it is one of the roughly wedge shaped things on an upright
bicycle, it is a SADDLE.

This is a proper SEAT:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df9.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/&h=600&w=800&sz=118&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=hKubCMOgJW f6ZM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddragonflyer%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26 lr%3D%26safe%3Doff.

...
I have a farm/ranch background, and as far as I know, saddles for
horses are still exclusively made of leather....

The last time I checked, horses are exclusively covered in leather.

--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain