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#41
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2/21/2018 9:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-20 19:00, AMuzi wrote: On 2/20/2018 8:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/20/2018 2:54 PM, Joerg wrote: It's not that American bike facility planners never mess up but after having lived long enough in Germany, the Netherland and the US I can rightfully say that the German bike facility planners are the worst of the three groups. By far. We've just been looking at examples of American facilities that did not work and British facilities that did not work. Jay has talked at length about the faults with many of Portland's bike facilities. (Their bike boxes, installed to reduce right hooks, instead increased right hooks greatly.) We've talked at length about Stevenage and Milton Keynes in England, towns purpose-built with state of the art separate bike facilities that don't work. I recall reading about an Ottowa, Canada cycle track that scored three car-bike crashes in its first three weeks. A Columbus, Ohio cycle track (on Summit Street) had 11 car-bike crashes in its first year of operation. The same stretch of road had only 6 car-bike crashes in the four years prior to the beginning of construction. The "bicycle highways" through London generated a cluster of crossing conflict fatalities a few years ago. Joerg, don't pretend it's just incompetent designers in America, or Germany, or Canada, or England. There are too many examples. Basic physics and fundamental principles of traffic movement argue against many of the designs you tout. And green paint or copious warning signs can't prevent crashes caused by illogical traffic interactions. +1 Andrew, you are in the perfect position because you run a bike shop and undoubtedly 95% of people coming through the door are cyclists (discount the grandparents buying a tricycle for li'l Joey). What if you'd ask every one of them for a week or so whether they prefer riding on bike paths or on roads? As with the apologists for communism who turn hands up and say, "Well, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs" I note that there's never an omelette. Oh there is but it's always being eaten by the politically connected. Regular people must stand in line to get one, only one per family, and when it's their turn all omelettes are already gone. What if you'd ask every one of them for a week or so whether they prefer riding on bike paths or riding on bike paths or on roads? I quote Pauli, "That's so bad it's not even wrong." Joerg, you have no argument and you ought to know better. I, for one, would rather NOT ride on kiddy paths, a significant reason among many being I'm hardly ever going where one exists. "Hey Ms Customer! How about ditzing around on the kiddie path over near Mugger's Lane instead of going to work today?" pffft. I admit to absolutely hating the stupid boondoggles; I go out of my way to find another route on principle. I also avoid door-zone painted lanes and other crap of their ilk. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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#42
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2/21/2018 11:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/20/2018 10:36 PM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:11:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/20/2018 3:28 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-20 10:39, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 10:54:03 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote: Do you really believe everything should be done by a nanny state or some "organization"? Not _everything_. But should "organizations" teach proper use of the road? YES! We have "organizations" called schools that teach things like the rules of Dodge Ball. Why should they not teach people the rules of cycling in traffic? There is only so much time a school has and especially leftist states fill that with so much mandatory junk that we should rather concentrate on math, reading and stuff. Our kids already trail much of the developed world there. But what - we should not bother to teach them about operating vehicles properly in traffic? Good Lord! Way back in the dim and distant past when I was in High School the School System opted for a Driver's Training course and even purchased a "dual control" auto, a Chevy I believe, for the course. Is it to be supposed that in this high tech present learning how to drive is no longer necessary? I think that public school driver's education classes are far less common than they used to be. I took such a class as a summer option, but that was over 50 years ago. AFAIK it's not available around here at all. It's been replaced by for-profit driving schools and/or online classes. And those ignore interactions with bicyclists. I know a smart and dedicated bike advocate who has worked a long time trying to influence them to teach respect for cyclists, care when passing cyclists, etc. She's also lobbied to get appropriate questions into the official driver's license exams. She's been repeatedly rebuffed, but she keeps trying. Right, not in most schools. My grandson was licensed last summer after a $400 class and he's not at all motivated to drive. His generation doesn't much like automobiles. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#43
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:14:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: Which is the same effect as your message that "Roads are dangerous, don't ride a bike until you have a separate bike path." You guys have pounded on Joerg's mistakes until they are welded to his soul. One can't possibly change an opinion that is a key part of one's identity. -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net |
#44
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:22:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 2/20/2018 10:36 PM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:11:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/20/2018 3:28 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-20 10:39, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 10:54:03 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote: Do you really believe everything should be done by a nanny state or some "organization"? Not _everything_. But should "organizations" teach proper use of the road? YES! We have "organizations" called schools that teach things like the rules of Dodge Ball. Why should they not teach people the rules of cycling in traffic? There is only so much time a school has and especially leftist states fill that with so much mandatory junk that we should rather concentrate on math, reading and stuff. Our kids already trail much of the developed world there. But what - we should not bother to teach them about operating vehicles properly in traffic? Good Lord! Way back in the dim and distant past when I was in High School the School System opted for a Driver's Training course and even purchased a "dual control" auto, a Chevy I believe, for the course. Is it to be supposed that in this high tech present learning how to drive is no longer necessary? I think that public school driver's education classes are far less common than they used to be. I took such a class as a summer option, but that was over 50 years ago. AFAIK it's not available around here at all. It's been replaced by for-profit driving schools and/or online classes. And those ignore interactions with bicyclists. I know a smart and dedicated bike advocate who has worked a long time trying to influence them to teach respect for cyclists, care when passing cyclists, etc. She's also lobbied to get appropriate questions into the official driver's license exams. She's been repeatedly rebuffed, but she keeps trying. I have the feeling that is wrong. Why "respect for bicycles"? Are they somehow different then other slow moving "vehicles" (note the legal definition). There are already sufficient highway rules and regulations. Just enforce them. Of course, I read the complaints about Traffic cops unfairly ticketing someone - "Geeze, and I was only 20 mph over the posted and there weren't any kids at the school crossing anyway". I suppose if that logic is applied that "I didn't see him" becomes an equally valid excuse. -- Cheers, John B. |
#45
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2/21/2018 9:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:22:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/20/2018 10:36 PM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:11:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/20/2018 3:28 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-20 10:39, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 10:54:03 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote: Do you really believe everything should be done by a nanny state or some "organization"? Not _everything_. But should "organizations" teach proper use of the road? YES! We have "organizations" called schools that teach things like the rules of Dodge Ball. Why should they not teach people the rules of cycling in traffic? There is only so much time a school has and especially leftist states fill that with so much mandatory junk that we should rather concentrate on math, reading and stuff. Our kids already trail much of the developed world there. But what - we should not bother to teach them about operating vehicles properly in traffic? Good Lord! Way back in the dim and distant past when I was in High School the School System opted for a Driver's Training course and even purchased a "dual control" auto, a Chevy I believe, for the course. Is it to be supposed that in this high tech present learning how to drive is no longer necessary? I think that public school driver's education classes are far less common than they used to be. I took such a class as a summer option, but that was over 50 years ago. AFAIK it's not available around here at all. It's been replaced by for-profit driving schools and/or online classes. And those ignore interactions with bicyclists. I know a smart and dedicated bike advocate who has worked a long time trying to influence them to teach respect for cyclists, care when passing cyclists, etc. She's also lobbied to get appropriate questions into the official driver's license exams. She's been repeatedly rebuffed, but she keeps trying. I have the feeling that is wrong. Why "respect for bicycles"? Are they somehow different then other slow moving "vehicles" (note the legal definition). There are already sufficient highway rules and regulations. Just enforce them. I think a large part of the problem is ignorance. I'm just back from a bike club meeting where one friend was telling me about a motorist yelling "You're not supposed to be on the road." Sure, enforcement helps. But cops can intercept only a tiny fraction of people who violate laws. And it's even worse because a lot of cops are ignorant about bike laws. We need education on these issues, delivered in many ways. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#46
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2/21/2018 5:23 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:14:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: Which is the same effect as your message that "Roads are dangerous, don't ride a bike until you have a separate bike path." You guys have pounded on Joerg's mistakes until they are welded to his soul. One can't possibly change an opinion that is a key part of one's identity. For every Joerg, there are many lurkers. I suspect the lurkers learn from these discussions. That makes Joerg a useful tool. And besides, I've seen other refractory characters change their attitudes. Steven M. Scharf has written volumes here and elsewhere about how dynamo lights can never be adequate for safety. Now he admits he's got them on some of his family bikes. He's now even arguing strongly in favor of a tiny, barely visible blinky driven by a spoke magnet - in effect, an intermittent, super-low-power dynamo. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#47
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 21:16:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 2/21/2018 9:02 PM, John B. wrote: On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:22:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/20/2018 10:36 PM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:11:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/20/2018 3:28 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-20 10:39, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 10:54:03 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote: Do you really believe everything should be done by a nanny state or some "organization"? Not _everything_. But should "organizations" teach proper use of the road? YES! We have "organizations" called schools that teach things like the rules of Dodge Ball. Why should they not teach people the rules of cycling in traffic? There is only so much time a school has and especially leftist states fill that with so much mandatory junk that we should rather concentrate on math, reading and stuff. Our kids already trail much of the developed world there. But what - we should not bother to teach them about operating vehicles properly in traffic? Good Lord! Way back in the dim and distant past when I was in High School the School System opted for a Driver's Training course and even purchased a "dual control" auto, a Chevy I believe, for the course. Is it to be supposed that in this high tech present learning how to drive is no longer necessary? I think that public school driver's education classes are far less common than they used to be. I took such a class as a summer option, but that was over 50 years ago. AFAIK it's not available around here at all. It's been replaced by for-profit driving schools and/or online classes. And those ignore interactions with bicyclists. I know a smart and dedicated bike advocate who has worked a long time trying to influence them to teach respect for cyclists, care when passing cyclists, etc. She's also lobbied to get appropriate questions into the official driver's license exams. She's been repeatedly rebuffed, but she keeps trying. I have the feeling that is wrong. Why "respect for bicycles"? Are they somehow different then other slow moving "vehicles" (note the legal definition). There are already sufficient highway rules and regulations. Just enforce them. I think a large part of the problem is ignorance. I'm just back from a bike club meeting where one friend was telling me about a motorist yelling "You're not supposed to be on the road." Sure, enforcement helps. But cops can intercept only a tiny fraction of people who violate laws. And it's even worse because a lot of cops are ignorant about bike laws. We need education on these issues, delivered in many ways. Well, it goes without saying that traffic policemen should be familiar with the traffic regulations :-) But your friend's comment rather emphasis the lack of knowledge exhibited by many motorists. For example, In New Hampshire someone riding a horse has the same rights as someone driving a car. My guess is that a very large percent of the driving public doesn't know that. Enforcement doesn't have to catch all the evil doers all it has to do is catch enough of them that word gets round - "Hey, don't speed on Downer Road, they'll catch you and the fine is awful." But "Bike Laws"? As far as I've read there are only one or two specific bicycle laws as most states simply state that they are "vehicles" with all the rights of any vehicle. I can't comment on the U.S. but here I see bicyclists breaking both the traffic laws and what might be termed the laws of common sense almost daily. Perhaps cyclists also need to study up on what's right and what's wrong. -- Cheers, John B. |
#48
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Ouch. This happened to me once
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/21/2018 5:23 PM, Joy Beeson wrote: On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:14:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: Which is the same effect as your message that "Roads are dangerous, don't ride a bike until you have a separate bike path." You guys have pounded on Joerg's mistakes until they are welded to his soul. One can't possibly change an opinion that is a key part of one's identity. For every Joerg, there are many lurkers. I suspect the lurkers learn from these discussions. That makes Joerg a useful tool. And besides, I've seen other refractory characters change their attitudes. Steven M. Scharf has written volumes here and elsewhere about how dynamo lights can never be adequate for safety. Now he admits he's got them on some of his family bikes. He's now even arguing strongly in favor of a tiny, barely visible blinky driven by a spoke magnet - in effect, an intermittent, super-low-power dynamo. Hopefully that's not the proudest achievement of your life :-) |
#49
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2/19/2018 8:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
snip Oh, and bright lights do help in such situations. When a car driver sees some really bright light in the rear view and outside mirror that does get their attention. Experienced it myself many times, when they slammed on the brake pedal. True. Anyone that has good DRLs has experienced the difference. But it's not 100% of the time. I've never liked the narrative of "let's pass more laws to make everything safe for everyone," but education seems to be working on most people, since most commuters on bicycles, other than students, now are using DRLs. But last Sunday we were out on a trail and I did not understand why mountain bikers were using DRLs off-road, since there were not very many of them around. Will we ever educate everyone? No. But we did get Frank to buy a good battery powered light with DRL functionality, the Oculus, so there is hope for the future of our country. |
#50
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2/21/2018 2:23 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:14:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: Which is the same effect as your message that "Roads are dangerous, don't ride a bike until you have a separate bike path." You guys have pounded on Joerg's mistakes until they are welded to his soul. One can't possibly change an opinion that is a key part of one's identity. Of course Joerg never said any such thing, it's just one more of a series of the fabrications that some people are famous for. |
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