Re Global Warming

Per :
these fearsome European diseases that so ravaged Europe and then the New World are bacterial in nature

Smallpox was one of the bigger scourges.

Dunno how relevant it is to the discussion at hand, but smallpox is
viral.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...F-8#q=smallpox
--
Pete Cresswell

Per W. Wesley Groleau:

Guns and horses made a big difference. Of course, after a generation or
two, the natives also had them.

I would recommend "Guns, Germs, and Steel" (the movie) by Jared Dymond.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojU31yHDqiM

Looks like the book is also freely available:
http://www.ahshistory.com/wp-content...-AND-STEEL.pdf
and my guess is that, like the movie, it puts a *lot* of weight on
disease decimating the native populations.

Cannot cite, but somewhere else, I read that, in Massachusetts,
village-after-village of the native population was wiped out in a short
time.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:09:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:43:22 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:22:41 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:41:39 -0800 (PST), Doug Landau
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 4:21:28 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 6:35:56 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 6:24:33 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:55:20 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/1/2016 6:36 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
Are traffic fumes the only fumes that relate to these deaths? Or is it
a more a matter of "unclean air" with fumes coming from anywhere - the
local soft coal fired electrical plant, for example?
Before that, from teepees.

When I was stationed at Edwards AFB, in the Mohave Desert I remember
driving to Los Angeles and as you came over the crests of the
mountains and looked out over the L.A. Basin it was covered with a
dense cloud. As you descended into the cloud you found your eyes
watering and the air smelled "bad".

This was the case for thousands of years before you were at Edwards. The first Spaniards to see it called LA "the Bay of Smokes", referring to the same pollution problem that always existed in the LA basin.

Shush Doug. As Frank and Pete say - the truth doesn't matter.

Are you saying it never got worse than back in the 1600s?

Frank, you can clearly see that I did not say that. However, I wouldn't be a bit surprised, because:
1. Around here (silicon valley) they say (or did until 5-10 yrs ago) that wood fires are responsible for 20% of the air pollution on winter days. But who has wood fires? Nobody around here heats their home that way; wood fires are for fun only. Except for a few homes in the surrounding hills as even most of them use propane. So a teeny little bit of woodburning is as bad as 1/5 of the population, industry, and vehicles of silicon valley.
2. The nature of the LA Basin is that smog accumulates. So why would it not reach the same levels, if there is a reasonable period between cleansing winds? If such winds cleanse the basin every 60 days, and it takes modern LA 3 to get to the point where the basin is full of smog and spills out south thru orange county, and in 1600 it took 30 days to get to that point, then the volume of smog was not as bad for 27 days, but the nature of it was worse, it being wood smoke not auto exhaust.

http://burningissues.org/car-www/med...er/PAHcon..htm

BTW, Costco puts the native population of California in 1600 at 10X the traditional estimates.

https://www.amazon.com/Missions-Cali.../dp/0317645390

I don't know about the so-called genocide which a word presently popular for just about everything.

The Mission System in Southern California may have been different but in Northern California there isn't any evidence of using Indians for anything other than slave labor to build the missions. And of course to farm the surrounding area but which repaid the Indians by teaching them modern farming methods.

Oh Bull****. Lt. Pedro Fages - the CEO of the Monterey Presidio in deAnza's time, for example, encouraged his men to use native women for comfort.

I doahn no WTH yawl talking abt these daze.

I lived around the joining of the West n East Branches of the Susquehanna River. Reports allege Indians in the 20-25 thousand Good hunting n fishing.

Disappeared.

On Sun, 4 Dec 2016 10:41:21 -0600, "W. Wesley Groleau"
wrote:

On 12-03-2016 20:43, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per :
So how do you think that they were controlling the tens of thousands of Indians that are claimed to have been enslaved?

No clue, but the Spanish seem to have conquered the Aztecs in 2 years
with something like 500 soldiers.

Guns and horses made a big difference. Of course, after a generation or
two, the natives also had them.

Don't give too much credit to the "fire lock" guns that the Spanish
had. They didn't work when it rained and were so slow to load that one
probably got off only one shot during an engagement and (as far as I
know) weren't equipped with a bayonet so they were no good as a spear.

I suspect that it was more a matter of cavalry and likely better
discipline and tactics that did the trick. The Spanish also had native
allies. at the Battle of Teocajas, Sebastian de Benalcazar had 200
Spanish and some 3,000 Cañari allies.

Another point might be that because of the wars in Europe it is likely
that the Conquistadors were well trained solders rather than a
"rag-tag bunch of savages".

--
cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 6:16:04 PM UTC-5, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per :
these fearsome European diseases that so ravaged Europe and then the New World are bacterial in nature

Smallpox was one of the bigger scourges.

Dunno how relevant it is to the discussion at hand, but smallpox is
viral.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...F-8#q=smallpox
--
Pete Cresswell

Another viral infection that usedto kill a lot of people was the so called Common Cold. Influenza is also viral and not bacterial.

Cheers

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 6:22:52 PM UTC-5, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per W. Wesley Groleau:

Guns and horses made a big difference. Of course, after a generation or
two, the natives also had them.

I would recommend "Guns, Germs, and Steel" (the movie) by Jared Dymond.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojU31yHDqiM

Looks like the book is also freely available:
http://www.ahshistory.com/wp-content...AND-STEEL..pdf
and my guess is that, like the movie, it puts a *lot* of weight on
disease decimating the native populations.

Cannot cite, but somewhere else, I read that, in Massachusetts,
village-after-village of the native population was wiped out in a short
time.
--
Pete Cresswell

An early explorer in the south of what became the U.S.A. noted that a few years after contacting many tibes alon iirc the Mississippi River there were hardly any natives left and entire villages had disappeared. Most historians say it was European diseases that did the wiping out.

Cheers

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 6:57:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Dec 2016 10:41:21 -0600, "W. Wesley Groleau"
wrote:

On 12-03-2016 20:43, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per :
So how do you think that they were controlling the tens of thousands of Indians that are claimed to have been enslaved?

No clue, but the Spanish seem to have conquered the Aztecs in 2 years
with something like 500 soldiers.

Guns and horses made a big difference. Of course, after a generation or
two, the natives also had them.

Don't give too much credit to the "fire lock" guns that the Spanish
had. They didn't work when it rained and were so slow to load that one
probably got off only one shot during an engagement and (as far as I
know) weren't equipped with a bayonet so they were no good as a spear.

I suspect that it was more a matter of cavalry and likely better
discipline and tactics that did the trick. The Spanish also had native
allies. at the Battle of Teocajas, Sebastian de Benalcazar had 200
Spanish and some 3,000 Cañari allies.

Another point might be that because of the wars in Europe it is likely
that the Conquistadors were well trained solders rather than a
"rag-tag bunch of savages".

--
cheers,

John B.

The European soldiers were quite disciplined and could fight from a distance whereas many native tribes thought that the warrior should close with the enemy in order to demonstrate superior courage.

Volley fire was devastating to anyone charging a well dug in defensive position be that an attacking European army or the natives found in North America.

Cheers

On Sun, 4 Dec 2016 16:39:10 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 6:57:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Dec 2016 10:41:21 -0600, "W. Wesley Groleau"
wrote:

On 12-03-2016 20:43, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per :
So how do you think that they were controlling the tens of thousands of Indians that are claimed to have been enslaved?

No clue, but the Spanish seem to have conquered the Aztecs in 2 years
with something like 500 soldiers.

Guns and horses made a big difference. Of course, after a generation or
two, the natives also had them.

Don't give too much credit to the "fire lock" guns that the Spanish
had. They didn't work when it rained and were so slow to load that one
probably got off only one shot during an engagement and (as far as I
know) weren't equipped with a bayonet so they were no good as a spear.

I suspect that it was more a matter of cavalry and likely better
discipline and tactics that did the trick. The Spanish also had native
allies. at the Battle of Teocajas, Sebastian de Benalcazar had 200
Spanish and some 3,000 Cañari allies.

Another point might be that because of the wars in Europe it is likely
that the Conquistadors were well trained solders rather than a
"rag-tag bunch of savages".

--
cheers,

John B.

The European soldiers were quite disciplined and could fight from a distance whereas many native tribes thought that the warrior should close with the enemy in order to demonstrate superior courage.

Volley fire was devastating to anyone charging a well dug in defensive position be that an attacking European army or the natives found in North America.

Cheers

Unfortunately the fire arms that the Spanish had weren't capable of
"volley fire", in the sense of the English "Thin Red Line" as they
were very slow to load. And even the English, who probably prefect ed
the volley fire concept only used it under certain circumstances as
when the enemy got close there was no time to reload thus the tactic
of marching, in ranks to within about 50 yards of the enemy, firing
one volley and charging with the Bayonet.
--
cheers,

John B.

Per :
we EVEN have the statement of the Chairman of the IPCC; "This is not about climate change.
This is about redistribution of the world's wealth."

I cannot see how such a statement conflicts with the fact of global
warming. Seems like he is saying that dealing with global warming by
restricting fossil fuel consumption (coal, oil, NG) penalizes developing
nations, thus furthering redistributing wealth..... but that's different
from saying that global warming is not happening or that man-made
activities are not causing it.
--
Pete Cresswell