Re Global Warming

On 12-05-2016 09:37, wrote:
There are no real citations since all I'm saying is fact.

Hmmm. (looking at the balances)

Semi-anonymous Usenetter says it's fact.
vs.
Something I read long ago that I had reason to trust at the time.

Wow. Tough decision.

--
Wes Groleau

On 12-05-2016 09:41, wrote:
On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 8:41:23 AM UTC-8, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 12-03-2016 20:43, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per :
So how do you think that they were controlling the tens of thousands of Indians that are claimed to have been enslaved?

No clue, but the Spanish seem to have conquered the Aztecs in 2 years
with something like 500 soldiers.

Guns and horses made a big difference. Of course, after a generation or
two, the natives also had them.

--
Wes Groleau

The Aztecs were hated by the other tribes and a large portion of Cortes army were members of these other tribes. It wasn't guns and horses but numbers. And it still took something like three years.

Sorry, I missed the transition from southern California to Mid-Mexico.
Horses probably weren't as useful against a city on an island.

--
Wes Groleau

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 2:45:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 10:25:53 AM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 12:31:43 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 4:41:41 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 4:21:28 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 6:35:56 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 6:24:33 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:55:20 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/1/2016 6:36 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
Are traffic fumes the only fumes that relate to these deaths? Or is it
a more a matter of "unclean air" with fumes coming from anywhere - the
local soft coal fired electrical plant, for example?
Before that, from teepees.

When I was stationed at Edwards AFB, in the Mohave Desert I remember
driving to Los Angeles and as you came over the crests of the
mountains and looked out over the L.A. Basin it was covered with a
dense cloud. As you descended into the cloud you found your eyes
watering and the air smelled "bad".

This was the case for thousands of years before you were at Edwards. The first Spaniards to see it called LA "the Bay of Smokes", referring to the same pollution problem that always existed in the LA basin..

Shush Doug. As Frank and Pete say - the truth doesn't matter.

Are you saying it never got worse than back in the 1600s?

Frank, you can clearly see that I did not say that. However, I wouldn't be a bit surprised, because:
1. Around here (silicon valley) they say (or did until 5-10 yrs ago) that wood fires are responsible for 20% of the air pollution on winter days. But who has wood fires? Nobody around here heats their home that way; wood fires are for fun only. Except for a few homes in the surrounding hills as even most of them use propane. So a teeny little bit of woodburning is as bad as 1/5 of the population, industry, and vehicles of silicon valley.
2. The nature of the LA Basin is that smog accumulates. So why would it not reach the same levels, if there is a reasonable period between cleansing winds? If such winds cleanse the basin every 60 days, and it takes modern LA 3 to get to the point where the basin is full of smog and spills out south thru orange county, and in 1600 it took 30 days to get to that point, then the volume of smog was not as bad for 27 days, but the nature of it was worse, it being wood smoke not auto exhaust.

http://burningissues.org/car-www/med...cer/PAHcon.htm

BTW, Costco puts the native population of California in 1600 at 10X the traditional estimates.

https://www.amazon.com/Missions-Cali.../dp/0317645390

I don't know about the so-called genocide which a word presently popular for just about everything.

The Mission System in Southern California may have been different but in Northern California there isn't any evidence of using Indians for anything other than slave labor to build the missions. And of course to farm the surrounding area but which repaid the Indians by teaching them modern farming methods.

Oh Bull****. Lt. Pedro Fages - the CEO of the Monterey Presidio in deAnza's time, for example, encouraged his men to use native women for comfort.

Modern Californians, when they set about to restore the missions, found rooms full of bones. The natives were often not even buried, but simply tossed into a room onto a pile of bodies.

The farming methods of the natives were inferior to the native's own, given the native's needs. The natives were already tending every field in the state; they simply were harvesting crops where they grew, rather than putting them in rows.

The whole concept of the missions was to use the natives; to use them to regard as animals, to support their own perceived superiority, and justify decimating them.

Right - they tossed bodies into a room in the mission compound. I'm sure you know what rotting corpses smell like and can attest that it isn't "that bad" so that they would do such a thing.

And these were Missions of the Franciscan order. But you don't know what that means do you?

It means that the Catholic church ran concentration/death camps just like the Nazis did, and only shortly before.

Actually what it means is that you do not understand the Catholic practice of digging up the bones of loved ones and saving the bones as relics of love. They don't practice that anymore since it is so often misunderstood as you are doing. And these bones undoubtedly were not "dumped in a room" but were in family groupings.

Look Doug, I've already explained that Archaeologists showed that these Indians were dying out when the Missions arrived and it had started a couple of hundred years before the white man arrived. I've shown that the average age of the California Indians was some 35 years old and that the death rates in the time of the Missions was actually lower than it had been before the Missionaries.

What you've shown is your ignorance. You do not belong in a debate over this subject and will continue to put your foot in your mouth as long as you remain therein.

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 3:03:59 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 2:51:13 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:

You've made up more facts so far this morning than George W bush, L Ron Hubbard, and Farley Mowat, all put together on a good day

And you've supplied so many sources with your false claims that we can believe you in a second compared to the actual history of the Missions and what they accomplished.. Tell me - when do you start giving us the real poop from Las Sergas de Esplandián?

Huh? (from Wiki):

"Las Sergas de Esplandián (The Adventures of Esplandián) is the fifth book in a series of Spanish chivalric romance novels by Garci RodrÃ*guez de Montalvo, which began with AmadÃ*s de Gaula. The first known edition of this work was published in Seville in July 1510. But there was another edition published prior, possibly in Seville in 1496, as the sixth book of the series, Florisando, appeared four months earlier, in April 1510..[citation needed]
Ruth Putnam argues that Montalvo finished his novel sometime after 1492[1] but before Queen Isabella died in 1504.[2]

Las Sergas mentions a fictional island named California,[3] inhabited only by black women, and ruled by Queen Calafia. When Spanish explorers (including Francisco de Ulloa) learned of an island (actually a peninsula) off western Mexico rumored to be ruled by Amazon women, they named it California."

Wow, Californian Amazon black women! Sounds hot -- like a 70's blaxsploitation film. Isn't Queen Calafia an LA rapper?

More from the inter-web:

"Surprisingly, one State—California—is named for a powerful, wealthy, handsome, black lesbian. Well, that sounds improbable; doesn’t it? But it’s true nonetheless. California is named for Calafia (sometimes spelled Califia), warrior queen of a mythical tribe of Amazon warriors who were believed by early Spanish explorers to inhabit the place we now call California. How did that happen?"

Powerful, wealthy black lesbians! That's got to make Tom's head explode! I think those are exactly the women who are keeping him down -- along with the East Indian women in HR. Time to move!

The origins of the name "Oregon" are uncertain, but I can absolutely guaranty you that the state was not named after a powerful black lesbian warrior queen. I don't even think we have a brew-pub named after a powerful black lesbian warrior queen.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 12/5/2016 7:58 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 3:03:59 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 2:51:13 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:

You've made up more facts so far this morning than George W bush, L Ron Hubbard, and Farley Mowat, all put together on a good day

And you've supplied so many sources with your false claims that we can believe you in a second compared to the actual history of the Missions and what they accomplished.. Tell me - when do you start giving us the real poop from Las Sergas de Esplandián?

Huh? (from Wiki):

"Las Sergas de Esplandián (The Adventures of Esplandián) is the fifth book in a series of Spanish chivalric romance novels by Garci RodrÃ*guez de Montalvo, which began with AmadÃ*s de Gaula. The first known edition of this work was published in Seville in July 1510. But there was another edition published prior, possibly in Seville in 1496, as the sixth book of the series, Florisando, appeared four months earlier, in April 1510.[citation needed]
Ruth Putnam argues that Montalvo finished his novel sometime after 1492[1] but before Queen Isabella died in 1504.[2]

Las Sergas mentions a fictional island named California,[3] inhabited only by black women, and ruled by Queen Calafia. When Spanish explorers (including Francisco de Ulloa) learned of an island (actually a peninsula) off western Mexico rumored to be ruled by Amazon women, they named it California."

Wow, Californian Amazon black women! Sounds hot -- like a 70's blaxsploitation film. Isn't Queen Calafia an LA rapper?

More from the inter-web:

"Surprisingly, one State—California—is named for a powerful, wealthy, handsome, black lesbian. Well, that sounds improbable; doesn’t it? But it’s true nonetheless. California is named for Calafia (sometimes spelled Califia), warrior queen of a mythical tribe of Amazon warriors who were believed by early Spanish explorers to inhabit the place we now call California. How did that happen?"

Powerful, wealthy black lesbians! That's got to make Tom's head explode! I think those are exactly the women who are keeping him down -- along with the East Indian women in HR. Time to move!

The origins of the name "Oregon" are uncertain, but I can absolutely guaranty you that the state was not named after a powerful black lesbian warrior queen. I don't even think we have a brew-pub named after a powerful black lesbian warrior queen.

-- Jay Beattie.






Oregon and Horicon are upstate NY American Indian
(Algonquin) words. Several place names recur in NY state,
Wisconsin and Oregon.

p.s. Our local city is ore e GONE. Your state is ORE uh gun.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 5:58:31 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 3:03:59 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 2:51:13 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:

You've made up more facts so far this morning than George W bush, L Ron Hubbard, and Farley Mowat, all put together on a good day

And you've supplied so many sources with your false claims that we can believe you in a second compared to the actual history of the Missions and what they accomplished.. Tell me - when do you start giving us the real poop from Las Sergas de Esplandián?

Huh? (from Wiki):

"Las Sergas de Esplandián (The Adventures of Esplandián) is the fifth book in a series of Spanish chivalric romance novels by Garci RodrÃ*guez de Montalvo, which began with AmadÃ*s de Gaula. The first known edition of this work was published in Seville in July 1510. But there was another edition published prior, possibly in Seville in 1496, as the sixth book of the series, Florisando, appeared four months earlier, in April 1510.[citation needed]
Ruth Putnam argues that Montalvo finished his novel sometime after 1492[1] but before Queen Isabella died in 1504.[2]

Las Sergas mentions a fictional island named California,[3] inhabited only by black women, and ruled by Queen Calafia. When Spanish explorers (including Francisco de Ulloa) learned of an island (actually a peninsula) off western Mexico rumored to be ruled by Amazon women, they named it California."

Wow, Californian Amazon black women! Sounds hot -- like a 70's blaxsploitation film. Isn't Queen Calafia an LA rapper?

More from the inter-web:

"Surprisingly, one State—California—is named for a powerful, wealthy, handsome, black lesbian. Well, that sounds improbable; doesn’t it? But it’s true nonetheless. California is named for Calafia (sometimes spelled Califia), warrior queen of a mythical tribe of Amazon warriors who were believed by early Spanish explorers to inhabit the place we now call California. How did that happen?"

Powerful, wealthy black lesbians! That's got to make Tom's head explode! I think those are exactly the women who are keeping him down -- along with the East Indian women in HR. Time to move!

The origins of the name "Oregon" are uncertain, but I can absolutely guaranty you that the state was not named after a powerful black lesbian warrior queen. I don't even think we have a brew-pub named after a powerful black lesbian warrior queen.

-- Jay Beattie.

All I know about it is that a)Cortes had read it, so it is possible that he named California, and that that is where he got that name (it is also possible that is a contraction of Calida Fornax, hot furnace), and b)that is where James Phelan got the name for his summer house in Saratoga, Villa Montalvo.

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 3:03:59 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 2:51:13 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:

You've made up more facts so far this morning than George W bush, L Ron Hubbard, and Farley Mowat, all put together on a good day

And you've supplied so many sources with your false claims that we can believe you in a second compared to the actual history of the Missions and what they accomplished.. Tell me - when do you start giving us the real poop from Las Sergas de Esplandián?

Unfortunately I've adopted the practice of tearing out the pages of the books I'm reading as I read them. It leads to more reading and lower ETs thru the book, I think, but also to frustration when wanting to reference it after the fact.

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 6:10:32 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/5/2016 7:58 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 3:03:59 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 2:51:13 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:

You've made up more facts so far this morning than George W bush, L Ron Hubbard, and Farley Mowat, all put together on a good day

And you've supplied so many sources with your false claims that we can believe you in a second compared to the actual history of the Missions and what they accomplished.. Tell me - when do you start giving us the real poop from Las Sergas de Esplandián?

Huh? (from Wiki):

"Las Sergas de Esplandián (The Adventures of Esplandián) is the fifth book in a series of Spanish chivalric romance novels by Garci RodrÃÂ*guez de Montalvo, which began with AmadÃÂ*s de Gaula. The first known edition of this work was published in Seville in July 1510. But there was another edition published prior, possibly in Seville in 1496, as the sixth book of the series, Florisando, appeared four months earlier, in April 1510.[citation needed]
Ruth Putnam argues that Montalvo finished his novel sometime after 1492[1] but before Queen Isabella died in 1504.[2]

Las Sergas mentions a fictional island named California,[3] inhabited only by black women, and ruled by Queen Calafia. When Spanish explorers (including Francisco de Ulloa) learned of an island (actually a peninsula) off western Mexico rumored to be ruled by Amazon women, they named it California."

Wow, Californian Amazon black women! Sounds hot -- like a 70's blaxsploitation film. Isn't Queen Calafia an LA rapper?

More from the inter-web:

"Surprisingly, one State�California�is named for a powerful, wealthy, handsome, black lesbian. Well, that sounds improbable; doesn’t it? But it’s true nonetheless. California is named for Calafia (sometimes spelled Califia), warrior queen of a mythical tribe of Amazon warriors who were believed by early Spanish explorers to inhabit the place we now call California. How did that happen?"

Powerful, wealthy black lesbians! That's got to make Tom's head explode! I think those are exactly the women who are keeping him down -- along with the East Indian women in HR. Time to move!

The origins of the name "Oregon" are uncertain, but I can absolutely guaranty you that the state was not named after a powerful black lesbian warrior queen. I don't even think we have a brew-pub named after a powerful black lesbian warrior queen.

-- Jay Beattie.






Oregon and Horicon are upstate NY American Indian
(Algonquin) words. Several place names recur in NY state,
Wisconsin and Oregon.

p.s. Our local city is ore e GONE. Your state is ORE uh gun.


I don't think there is consensus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_(toponym)
I do know, however, that no black lesbian warrior queens were involved.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 12/5/2016 1:29 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
In fact, before the arrival of the Spanish, peace prevailed in California, and violence was extremely rare; usually surfacing only as a response to marital infidelity.

If that were really true in California, it would have been very unique
in North America. IOW, I really doubt that peace prevailed, except
perhaps temporarily from time to time. The idea of a peaceful
pre-Columbian continent is fantasy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 4:08:41 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 2:45:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 10:25:53 AM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 12:31:43 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 4:41:41 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 4:21:28 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 6:35:56 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 6:24:33 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:55:20 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/1/2016 6:36 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
Are traffic fumes the only fumes that relate to these deaths? Or is it
a more a matter of "unclean air" with fumes coming from anywhere - the
local soft coal fired electrical plant, for example?
Before that, from teepees.

When I was stationed at Edwards AFB, in the Mohave Desert I remember
driving to Los Angeles and as you came over the crests of the
mountains and looked out over the L.A. Basin it was covered with a
dense cloud. As you descended into the cloud you found your eyes
watering and the air smelled "bad".

This was the case for thousands of years before you were at Edwards. The first Spaniards to see it called LA "the Bay of Smokes", referring to the same pollution problem that always existed in the LA basin.

Shush Doug. As Frank and Pete say - the truth doesn't matter.

Are you saying it never got worse than back in the 1600s?

Frank, you can clearly see that I did not say that. However, I wouldn't be a bit surprised, because:
1. Around here (silicon valley) they say (or did until 5-10 yrs ago) that wood fires are responsible for 20% of the air pollution on winter days. But who has wood fires? Nobody around here heats their home that way; wood fires are for fun only. Except for a few homes in the surrounding hills as even most of them use propane. So a teeny little bit of woodburning is as bad as 1/5 of the population, industry, and vehicles of silicon valley.
2. The nature of the LA Basin is that smog accumulates. So why would it not reach the same levels, if there is a reasonable period between cleansing winds? If such winds cleanse the basin every 60 days, and it takes modern LA 3 to get to the point where the basin is full of smog and spills out south thru orange county, and in 1600 it took 30 days to get to that point, then the volume of smog was not as bad for 27 days, but the nature of it was worse, it being wood smoke not auto exhaust.

http://burningissues.org/car-www/med...cer/PAHcon.htm

BTW, Costco puts the native population of California in 1600 at 10X the traditional estimates.

https://www.amazon.com/Missions-Cali.../dp/0317645390

I don't know about the so-called genocide which a word presently popular for just about everything.

The Mission System in Southern California may have been different but in Northern California there isn't any evidence of using Indians for anything other than slave labor to build the missions. And of course to farm the surrounding area but which repaid the Indians by teaching them modern farming methods.

Oh Bull****. Lt. Pedro Fages - the CEO of the Monterey Presidio in deAnza's time, for example, encouraged his men to use native women for comfort.

Modern Californians, when they set about to restore the missions, found rooms full of bones. The natives were often not even buried, but simply tossed into a room onto a pile of bodies.

The farming methods of the natives were inferior to the native's own, given the native's needs. The natives were already tending every field in the state; they simply were harvesting crops where they grew, rather than putting them in rows.

The whole concept of the missions was to use the natives; to use them to regard as animals, to support their own perceived superiority, and justify decimating them.

Right - they tossed bodies into a room in the mission compound. I'm sure you know what rotting corpses smell like and can attest that it isn't "that bad" so that they would do such a thing.

And these were Missions of the Franciscan order. But you don't know what that means do you?

It means that the Catholic church ran concentration/death camps just like the Nazis did, and only shortly before.

Actually what it means is that you do not understand the Catholic practice of digging up the bones of loved ones and saving the bones as relics of love. They don't practice that anymore since it is so often misunderstood as you are doing. And these bones undoubtedly were not "dumped in a room" but were in family groupings.

Look Doug, I've already explained that Archaeologists showed that these Indians were dying out when the Missions arrived and it had started a couple of hundred years before the white man arrived. I've shown that the average age of the California Indians was some 35 years old and that the death rates in the time of the Missions was actually lower than it had been before the Missionaries.

What you've shown is your ignorance. You do not belong in a debate over this subject and will continue to put your foot in your mouth as long as you remain therein.

Yeah, we all have it - you are an atheist and are willing to accept ANYTHING anti-religion no matter how preposterous it is.