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#1
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getting a tubular off the rim quickly
The real trick is getting the glue off your hands. Seriously, most people use far too much glue. If you ride your bike enough, you learn just how much to put on in the first place. I very seldom put on new glue each time unless I happen to get alot of grass mixed in and have to clean my rim. As for the hands, I keep a small bottle of alcohol rub in my bag. It also helps with washing off road dirt before I grab an apple of a tree along the way. -- peet9471 |
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#2
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If you race on tubbies, there is no such thing as "too much glue." If
you've ever clipped a pedal in a turn and launched yourself over a few feet, you'd know that the impact of landing will roll most tubbies that are glued in the normal way. Sometimes it will take me 15 minutes to get a flat tubbie off of a race wheel. If you use them for training, or for just riding around, you have to ask yourself..................Why bother ?? |
#3
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I don't see the original message in the thread, I think google
groups-beta is going through some growing pains... but here's what I have to offer... getting a tubie off in a hurry...some folks, mostly triathletes deliberately leave a 1/2 to 1 inch spot on the rim and/or tire unglued...usually directly opposite the valve hole so you can find that spot easily....some people may say this is risky...but it's done fairly regularly without incident. if you're doing fast descents down the french alps..maybe not such a good idea. in an emergency...say if you valve is plugged or your valve extender snaps off and you can't deflate your sew-up to pull it off....work a spot loose, and the take a large screwdriver and insert it clear through to the other side...and then roll the screwdriver with your hands on each side of the screwdriver...all the way around the rim to pry the glue loose. I saw a Mavic tech do this at Ironman last year...only way to get the tire off in that case. There used to be an excellent tutorial for gluing tire on the zipp website..but I think it's gone now....so here's what i know...hopefully there are answers to the original question. always try and pre-stretch a new tire on a rim before gluing it...it will save you some trouble. inflate a new tubie over an unused rim...even a clincher rim will do in a pinch. let it sit overnight...or at least a few hours...(if you don't have time to pre-strectch...you can GENTLY pull up on a sewup while standing on it...use both feet to distribute the force...and rotate to the tire as you stretch. Don't overdue it. you can tear teh base tape or distort the casing if you apply to much force....go slow and distribute the force evenly. a good way to keep glue from getting all over your hands is to snip a corner off a plastic bag and use it like a glove for your index finger...use the plastic wrapped finger to smooth the glue over the rim and the tire. (inflate the tire partially...so it turns itself inside out) it makes the job easier. apply thin, even coats...at least two to both the rim and the tire for a new rim and new tire..(otherwise a thin fresh coat over existing glue on a rim will do...but two coats on a new tire is the bare minimum if you dont' want to roll a tire. If you use small tubes of cement instead of the big jars...just put evenly space dots of glue along the rim and the tire...squeeze as you go...and then smooth it all out with your plastic wrapped finger. (simply pull the plastic off like a glove when you're done and discard). allow at least 15 min. to half hour between coats to let the glue dry and set up. it actually sticks better when it's dry. apply teflon tape to your valve if you're going to use a valve extender....screw on your valve extender. deflate the tire if it's still partially inflated.. valve extender should be left on...don't pull them off and on or try to use one for both wheels...you'll ruin the teflon tape seal...and you wont' be able to bring the tires up to full pressure when you need to, air will escape between the valve extender and the valve. when dry...place the wheel vertically...with the valve hole pointing up....and the rim resting on the tops of your feet...this way the glue doesn't pick up carpet fuzz or whatever on the floor. deflate the tire if you haven't done so already.. insert the valve of the tire first...and the pull and stretch the tire around the rim as you move your hands around and down the rim..work your way towards your feet...this way you'll produce enough slack that pushing the last bit of tire of the rim at the bottom shouldnt' be a herculean effort. (this works well for clinchers also if you have trouble getting that last bead over the rim) Also, with the rim vertically at your feet...you can use your body weight to help stretch and push the tire onto the rim. If you try to do it on a bench or on your lap...it's not very stable and you dont' have any sort of mechanical advantage... if the glue is still wet...you may smear a bunch on the braking surface...that's why it's important to let the glue dry. once your have the last bit of tire onto the rim...if you have a truing stand handy...partially inflate the tire...and spin...watch the center tread of the tire and try and center the tire. pull the tire up and away from the rim to reposition it. watch the sidewalls of the tire and try and make the amount of exposed base tape even all the way around and on both sides. if it's just a little off center in a couple places....once you bring the tire all the way up to full pressure, it will tend to center itself. Inflate the tire to full pressure and let is set overnight...ideally...before riding. We love Tufo sewups because they have a nice center tread that's easy to spot if it's off center. they also mount very easily and stretch easily...it's not uncommon to mount with without pre-stretching without too much trouble. if you want to avoid the hassle of glue altogether but want the quality of tubulars...Tufo make a glue tape that is easy to use. two flavors...regular and extra strong for hot/humid climates....just peel away the backing and apply to the rim...then mount your tire...and pull away the second backing off the tape...voila. no fuss, no muss. Only hassle is it'll block your spoke holes..which can be a hassle if you can only true your rim through your spoke holes....with glue, you should just be avoiding applying glue to the spoke holes and plugging them up. that's what I know after gluing many, many sewups in a triathlon shop. if you do the plastic baggie thing over your finger...there's no reason to have any glue on you whatsoever. hope it helps...oh yeah...cleanup...citrus cleaners work well...for your hands and the rim...always check your brake surfaces and clean off any glue, or you make lock up your brakes on the glue. sewups are still light as heck and fast...and corner like a dream...plenty of reasons to use them in the right circumstances. Eric bikemecca.com peet9471 wrote: The real trick is getting the glue off your hands. Seriously, most people use far too much glue. If you ride your bike enough, you learn just how much to put on in the first place. I very seldom put on new glue each time unless I happen to get alot of grass mixed in and have to clean my rim. As for the hands, I keep a small bottle of alcohol rub in my bag. It also helps with washing off road dirt before I grab an apple of a tree along the way. -- peet9471 |
#4
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The original question had nothing to do with racing. I use pre-glued tires with no additional glue at the time of the flat, which means I don't have to wait for the glue to dry. Wet glue would probably let the tire roll off the rim. I've never rolled a tire. -- peet9471 |
#5
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I keep an old steel tire lever rolled up in my spare tire, with the
business end sharpened a bit ( not knife sharp, just thinned down ). I can use the lever to work my way under the tire and cut some of the glue along an edge until I've got something to grab and pull. Remember, pull off rear tires on non-drive side; punching a cassette sucks. --Jim |
#7
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Roger Marquis writes:
If you race on tubulars, there is no such thing as "too much glue." Sure there is. Too much glue is one of the primary causes of rolled tires. You only need enough to "fill the gap", and like solder, any more makes for a weaker bond. The important feature is that the glue must be soft enough to make good contact with the tire. Dry glue on a dry base tape doesn't stick well. Too much glue has other problems besides not holding the tire securely. It gets on the side walls and oozes out in use, especially when the rim gets hot on braking down hills. If you've ever clipped a pedal in a turn and launched yourself over a few feet, you'd know that the impact of landing will roll most tubulars that are glued in the normal way. Normal in your sense perhaps, but if you used the correct amount of glue, the correct for the conditions, and let it dry the correct amount of time before mounting to the rim you'd be very unlikely to roll a tire even if you hit a pedal and the rear wheel came down several feet out. The difference is that the tire can be displaced without being peeled off as with insufficient pressure to maintain a round cross section. Clinchers will only roll if the are too soft but a tubular can be rolled off the rim even when hard. Rolling clinchers is not a common problem although rolling tubulars off the rim was in the days when all riders were on them. If you use them for training, or for just riding around, you have to ask yourself... Why bother ?? Why bother? Perhaps because it's easier than hassling with clinchers (if you know how to glue a tire). #1 because your riding partners will only have to wait 2 minutes instead of 10 when you get a flat, #2 because you can run larger, lighter tires at lower pressure on _much_ lighter rims, and #3 because you'll have better traction on less than perfect pavement. To make up for that, you either throw away an expensive tire or spend a substantial time repairing the tubular. From the many tubular repairs I witnessed and did myself, this is not a reasonable alternative. Besides, tubulars not glued with shellac have poorer rolling performance than good clinchers. http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif As is evident in the graph, the best rolling tires have a rim glue offset that makes them worse than good clinchers. This family of curves could be mathematically ordered by slope if there were not a constant offset for the tubulars by squirming glue losses. That these exist is evident by the aluminum debris in the glue after use and the base tape texture marks in the aluminum rim. Problem is, these days, most people either can't find decent sew-ups or don't know how to glue them. See http://www.roble.net/marquis/tubular for the later. Jobst Brandt |
#8
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wrote:
Too much glue is one of the primary causes of rolled tires. You only need enough to "fill the gap", and like solder, any more makes for a weaker bond. The important feature is that the glue must be soft enough to make good contact with the tire. That would depend on your definition of soft. I typically leave Vittoria glue on a rim for 30-45 minutes before mounting a tire. During this time it gets "dry" enough to touch but unless the layer was excessively thick I'm not sure how you'd go about determining whether it was "soft". Dry glue on a dry base tape doesn't stick well. That would depend on your definition of dry. :-) The objective is to let the glue dry as much as possible while still retaining its ability to adhere to both tire and rim. Like masonry, soldering, and pouring cement, it does take experience to know when a particular glue has "cured" enough to mount the tire. I still get it wrong from time to time but have never had a problem with rolled tires. I do check them on hot days, before races, and clean off the old glue before regluing however. That said it's important to remember that tires really do not need to be "welded" to the rim. If you can't get one off by hand it is "over-adhered". Rolling clinchers is not a common problem although rolling tubulars off the rim was in the days when all riders were on them. A properly glued sew-up is as unlikely to roll as a properly mounted clincher. The difference is perhaps due to the smaller number of ways to improperly mount a clincher. Rolled tires, in the rare cases when they do occur, are far more often caused by loose tires, mixed glues, and latex on the base tape than by improper gluing. I've rolled only 2 tires in 33 years, one from latex on the base tape of a Clement Criterium and one from a bad base tape on an unknown Contential. To make up for that, you either throw away an expensive tire or spend a substantial time repairing the tubular. That would depend on your definition of expensive. At $25 for a cheap cotton tubular it's hard to see much of a disadvantage despite the fact that clinchers typically last twice as long (as cheap tubulars). WRT patching, it is a waste of time if you make more than 150% of minimum wage. See tirealert.com otherwise. Besides, tubulars not glued with shellac have poorer rolling performance than good clinchers. I'd sure like to see a credible measurement of that oft-repeated (by Jobst at least) speculation. http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif As is evident in the graph, the best rolling tires have a rim glue offset that makes them worse than good clinchers. For all the work put into this graph it is totally meaningless when applied to sew-ups without a description of the glue used and how it was applied. -- Roger Marquis http://www.roble.net/marquis/ |
#9
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On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:04:56 +0000 (UTC), Roger Marquis
wrote: wrote: Too much glue is one of the primary causes of rolled tires. You only need enough to "fill the gap", and like solder, any more makes for a weaker bond. The important feature is that the glue must be soft enough to make good contact with the tire. That would depend on your definition of soft. I typically leave Vittoria glue on a rim for 30-45 minutes before mounting a tire. During this time it gets "dry" enough to touch but unless the layer was excessively thick I'm not sure how you'd go about determining whether it was "soft". Dry glue on a dry base tape doesn't stick well. That would depend on your definition of dry. :-) The objective is to let the glue dry as much as possible while still retaining its ability to adhere to both tire and rim. Like masonry, soldering, and pouring cement, it does take experience to know when a particular glue has "cured" enough to mount the tire. I still get it wrong from time to time but have never had a problem with rolled tires. I do check them on hot days, before races, and clean off the old glue before regluing however. That said it's important to remember that tires really do not need to be "welded" to the rim. If you can't get one off by hand it is "over-adhered". Rolling clinchers is not a common problem although rolling tubulars off the rim was in the days when all riders were on them. A properly glued sew-up is as unlikely to roll as a properly mounted clincher. The difference is perhaps due to the smaller number of ways to improperly mount a clincher. Rolled tires, in the rare cases when they do occur, are far more often caused by loose tires, mixed glues, and latex on the base tape than by improper gluing. I've rolled only 2 tires in 33 years, one from latex on the base tape of a Clement Criterium and one from a bad base tape on an unknown Contential. To make up for that, you either throw away an expensive tire or spend a substantial time repairing the tubular. That would depend on your definition of expensive. At $25 for a cheap cotton tubular it's hard to see much of a disadvantage despite the fact that clinchers typically last twice as long (as cheap tubulars). WRT patching, it is a waste of time if you make more than 150% of minimum wage. See tirealert.com otherwise. Besides, tubulars not glued with shellac have poorer rolling performance than good clinchers. I'd sure like to see a credible measurement of that oft-repeated (by Jobst at least) speculation. http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif As is evident in the graph, the best rolling tires have a rim glue offset that makes them worse than good clinchers. For all the work put into this graph it is totally meaningless when applied to sew-ups without a description of the glue used and how it was applied. Dear Roger, Jobst's description can be found here, but it just says tubular glue and normal methods: http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/rrdiscuss.html Jobst mentions that the tests are from 1986 and that some of the tests were lost. Here's a link to one rolling resistance test-table: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/lafford.htm Calvin Jones posted this link to tests involving seven kinds of glue: http://www.engr.ukans.edu/~ktl/bicycle/Cusa1.pdf in this rec.bicycles.tech thread: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...3?dmode=source or http://tinyurl.com/56mgg And his Park Tool site has a nice page on tubular repair with pictures: http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/tubular.shtml Carl Fogel |
#10
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Roger Marquis writes:
Besides, tubulars not glued with shellac have poorer rolling performance than good clinchers. I'd sure like to see a credible measurement of that oft-repeated (by Jobst at least) speculation. http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif As is evident in the graph, the best rolling tires have a rim glue offset that makes them worse than good clinchers. For all the work put into this graph it is totally meaningless when applied to sew-ups without a description of the glue used and how it was applied. From this statement, I take it that you DO believe that glue has an effect on RR. On the other hand, you didn't look at the graph carefully or you would have noticed that tires that start at high RR with low pressure rapidly get better RR with higher inflation pressure and that they don't as a rule get as good as the next best tire (one that starts lower on RR). Therefore, these are a family of curves that could be generated from a single one whose values are all multiplied by an RR factor. The flattest curves being at the bottom. That is, the flattest curves belong to the tires that have the least RR and which do not get much better with inflation pressure, there being so little upon which to improve. You may have noticed that old tubular rims have abraded base tape marks IN the aluminum, and that rim glue on a tubular is grey. This is aluminum that is worn off by constant squirming motion when in use. It is this action that lead to using hard glue for track and TT events to reduce RR overhead. Jobst Brandt |
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