Reasonable? Necessary? You Decide

I'll come up with a complete list of anti-motorist measures when I've
got time (because it will take a while).

But for now, I would like people (particularly Spindrift and his ilk)
to say whether they feel that each of the following events is
reasonable and necessary to achieve safer and/or less congested
roads. Each of these events is similar to at least one which has
happened in real life. Those who take exception to this post (despite
no opinions being expressed therein, so I can't imagine why, unless
they're trolling themselves of course) are encouraged to save
everybody some time and not add their less than 2 cents' worth.

1. Location: a stretch of wide, straight urban road with compulsory
cycle lanes.

Motorist A is waiting towards the middle of the road for a long line
of oncoming traffic to clear so that they can turn right. Motorist B
(with a line of cars behind) is coming up behind Motorist A and wishes
to continue past Motorist A, so that neither Motorist B nor the cars
behind are unduly delayed. There is not enough space to do this
without going into the cycle lane. Motorist B checks carefully all
around and ascertains that there are no cyclists anywhere nearby.
Motorist B briefly enters the cycle lane to get round Motorist A and
gets fined for doing so by a policeman who was observing from his car
further down the road.

2. Location: a quiet stretch of urban road with a pelican crossing.

A Pedestrian presses the button on the pelican crossing, but then
manages to complete the crossing and continue their journey before the
corresponding traffic light turns red. No other pedestrians are
nearby. A Cyclist cycles up to the crossing, observes that no
pedestrians are going to cross after carefully checking, and cycles
through the crossing while the traffic light is still red. The
Cyclist gets fined for doing so by a policeman who was observing from
his car further down the road.

3. Location: a quiet stretch of urban road with a pelican crossing.

A Pedestrian presses the button on the pelican crossing, but then
manages to complete the crossing and continue their journey before the
corresponding traffic light turns red. No other pedestrians are
nearby. A Motorist drives up to the crossing, observes that no
pedestrians are going to cross after carefully checking, and drives
through the crossing while the traffic light is still red. The
Motorist gets fined for doing so by a policeman who was observing from
his car further down the road.

4. A stretch of fairly narrow urban road with heavy traffic including
HGVs, and pavements alongside with no pedestrians nearby.

A Cyclist is finding it uncomfortable sharing the road with the heavy
traffic, and after checking carefully to ensure that there are no
pedestrians nearby, cycles on the pavement. They are fined for doing
so by a policeman who was observing from his car further down the
road.

5. Location: a stretch of urban road.

A Motorist parks with the car's bumper overhanging the beginning of a
double yellow line by 10cm. The car is not obstructing or
inconveniencing anybody. The Motorist returns to find a PCN attached
to the car.

6. Location: a stretch of rural NSL road with double white lines.

A Cyclist is cycling down the road at 15mph. A Motorist comes up
behind the Cyclist having been safely proceeding at the 60mph speed
limit, and slows down to 15mph. The Motorist could overtake the
Cyclist without crossing the double white lines, but to do so would
mean going closer to the Cyclist than would be ideal (since the
Cyclist is wobbling somewhat). After checking that there is no
oncoming traffic for a sufficient distance, the Motorist briskly
overtakes the Cyclist, briefly going around 0.5m over the double white
lines to ensure that there is ample space. The Motorist is fined by a
policeman who was observing from an unmarked car behind.

7. Location: a quiet stretch of urban road in London.

A Motorist stops for a minute on double yellow lines to read a map, so
as not to obstruct anyone's potential path or sight lines. No other
traffic is nearby throughout the time that they are stopped. A week
later they receive a CCTV PCN through the post.

8. Location: a stretch of rural road through a village with a 30mph
limit (recently reduced from 40mph). Going out of the village, all
buildings, pavements and other hazards stop 200m before the speed
limit changes from 30mph to NSL.

A Motorist drives through the village at 30mph, then begins to
accelerate gently once the last hazard is 100m behind. The Motorist
is doing 35mph as they are nearly at the NSL sign. The Motorist
receives a NIP in the post a week later as a result of a hidden
"Safety" Camera Partnership van lasering them at 35mph in the 30mph
zone.

Nuxx Bar wrote:

8... usual ****e

Shouldn't you be licking a window somewhere?

Tim
--
Sent from Birmingham, UK... all about me at www.nervouscyclist.org
'Now some people say that you shouldn't tempt fate, and for them I
cannot disagree - but I never learned nothing by playing it safe - I
say fate should not tempt me.' - Mary Chapin Carpenter

"Tim Dunne" wrote in message
...
Nuxx Bar wrote:

8... usual ****e

Shouldn't you be licking a window somewhere?

Tim

Sorry Tim, but I'm going to have to report you to the Association of British
Glaziers. Cruel and unusual punishment, it not actually torture. Why
should windows have to suffer like that?

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 04:30:52 -0800 (PST), Nuxx Bar
said in
:

I'll come up with a complete list of anti-motorist measures when I've
got time (because it will take a while).

IOW, you still want to take up our time but can't be arsed to put in
any of your own.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

In article 6ea8bd3b-ff2f-4227-98f7-a5e457545b20
@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com, Nuxx Bar
says...

1. Location: a stretch of wide, straight urban road with compulsory
cycle lanes.

Motorist A is waiting towards the middle of the road for a long line
of oncoming traffic to clear so that they can turn right. Motorist B
(with a line of cars behind) is coming up behind Motorist A and wishes
to continue past Motorist A, so that neither Motorist B nor the cars
behind are unduly delayed. There is not enough space to do this
without going into the cycle lane. Motorist B checks carefully all
around and ascertains that there are no cyclists anywhere nearby.
Motorist B briefly enters the cycle lane to get round Motorist A and
gets fined for doing so by a policeman who was observing from his car
further down the road.

Perfectly reasonable: a mandatory cycle lane is no more a place to drive
than a pavement is.

2. Location: a quiet stretch of urban road with a pelican crossing.

A Pedestrian presses the button on the pelican crossing, but then
manages to complete the crossing and continue their journey before the
corresponding traffic light turns red. No other pedestrians are
nearby. A Cyclist cycles up to the crossing, observes that no
pedestrians are going to cross after carefully checking, and cycles
through the crossing while the traffic light is still red. The
Cyclist gets fined for doing so by a policeman who was observing from
his car further down the road.

Quite right - anyone who ignores a red light should expect to be
prosecuted.

3. Location: a quiet stretch of urban road with a pelican crossing.

A Pedestrian presses the button on the pelican crossing, but then
manages to complete the crossing and continue their journey before the
corresponding traffic light turns red. No other pedestrians are
nearby. A Motorist drives up to the crossing, observes that no
pedestrians are going to cross after carefully checking, and drives
through the crossing while the traffic light is still red. The
Motorist gets fined for doing so by a policeman who was observing from
his car further down the road.

Quite right - anyone who ignores a red light should expect to be
prosecuted.

4. A stretch of fairly narrow urban road with heavy traffic including
HGVs, and pavements alongside with no pedestrians nearby.

A Cyclist is finding it uncomfortable sharing the road with the heavy
traffic, and after checking carefully to ensure that there are no
pedestrians nearby, cycles on the pavement. They are fined for doing
so by a policeman who was observing from his car further down the
road.

Pavements aren't for cycling - if he was that bothered he could have
pushed the bike.

5. Location: a stretch of urban road.

A Motorist parks with the car's bumper overhanging the beginning of a
double yellow line by 10cm. The car is not obstructing or
inconveniencing anybody. The Motorist returns to find a PCN attached
to the car.

If there wasn't space to park legally they should have found somewhere
else.

6. Location: a stretch of rural NSL road with double white lines.

A Cyclist is cycling down the road at 15mph. A Motorist comes up
behind the Cyclist having been safely proceeding at the 60mph speed
limit, and slows down to 15mph. The Motorist could overtake the
Cyclist without crossing the double white lines, but to do so would
mean going closer to the Cyclist than would be ideal (since the
Cyclist is wobbling somewhat). After checking that there is no
oncoming traffic for a sufficient distance, the Motorist briskly
overtakes the Cyclist, briefly going around 0.5m over the double white
lines to ensure that there is ample space. The Motorist is fined by a
policeman who was observing from an unmarked car behind.

Double white lines are used where it is unsafe to overtake. Whether the
cyclist is wobbling or not the driver should leave at least a full car
width when overtaking - if there isn't room to do that then it's not
safe to overtake.

7. Location: a quiet stretch of urban road in London.

A Motorist stops for a minute on double yellow lines to read a map, so
as not to obstruct anyone's potential path or sight lines. No other
traffic is nearby throughout the time that they are stopped. A week
later they receive a CCTV PCN through the post.

Double yellows mean no waiting at any time - how hard is that?

8. Location: a stretch of rural road through a village with a 30mph
limit (recently reduced from 40mph). Going out of the village, all
buildings, pavements and other hazards stop 200m before the speed
limit changes from 30mph to NSL.

A Motorist drives through the village at 30mph, then begins to
accelerate gently once the last hazard is 100m behind. The Motorist
is doing 35mph as they are nearly at the NSL sign. The Motorist
receives a NIP in the post a week later as a result of a hidden
"Safety" Camera Partnership van lasering them at 35mph in the 30mph
zone.

Speed limits don't mean "go no faster unless you think it's OK to do
so". Even if his average speed in that last 100m was 35mph he only
shortened his journey by about 2.5 seconds - was it really worth it?

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 13:49:12 -0000, Rob Morley
said in :

1. Location: a stretch of wide, straight urban road with compulsory
cycle lanes.

Motorist A is waiting towards the middle of the road for a long line
of oncoming traffic to clear so that they can turn right. Motorist B
(with a line of cars behind) is coming up behind Motorist A and wishes
to continue past Motorist A, so that neither Motorist B nor the cars
behind are unduly delayed. There is not enough space to do this
without going into the cycle lane. Motorist B checks carefully all
around and ascertains that there are no cyclists anywhere nearby.
Motorist B briefly enters the cycle lane to get round Motorist A and
gets fined for doing so by a policeman who was observing from his car
further down the road.

Perfectly reasonable: a mandatory cycle lane is no more a place to drive
than a pavement is.

Indeed. Why is patience never an option for these people? Seems
they would rather waste their lives bleating about being caught than
comply with the law. String 'em up, it's the only language they
understand.

A Pedestrian presses the button on the pelican crossing, but then
manages to complete the crossing and continue their journey before the
corresponding traffic light turns red. No other pedestrians are
nearby. A Motorist drives up to the crossing, observes that no
pedestrians are going to cross after carefully checking, and drives
through the crossing while the traffic light is still red. The
Motorist gets fined for doing so by a policeman who was observing from
his car further down the road.

Quite right - anyone who ignores a red light should expect to be
prosecuted.

How dare you suggest that a motorist would cross a red light. Shame
on you! Everybody knows that breaking the law in this way is the
exclusive preserve of cyclists.

A Cyclist is cycling down the road at 15mph. A Motorist comes up
behind the Cyclist having been safely proceeding at the 60mph speed
limit, and slows down to 15mph. The Motorist could overtake the
Cyclist without crossing the double white lines, but to do so would
mean going closer to the Cyclist than would be ideal (since the
Cyclist is wobbling somewhat). After checking that there is no
oncoming traffic for a sufficient distance, the Motorist briskly
overtakes the Cyclist, briefly going around 0.5m over the double white
lines to ensure that there is ample space. The Motorist is fined by a
policeman who was observing from an unmarked car behind.

Double white lines are used where it is unsafe to overtake. Whether the
cyclist is wobbling or not the driver should leave at least a full car
width when overtaking - if there isn't room to do that then it's not
safe to overtake.

Indeed. The relevant rule in the HC suggests 10mph as the benchmark
for a vehicle going slowly enough for overtaking across the line to
be permissible.

Personally, I find the worst problem on these roads to be the very
large tractors that can easily maintain almost 30mph. But if you
drive on country roads, you learn to live with it.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

In article , Just zis Guy,
you know?
says...

Personally, I find the worst problem on these roads to be the very
large tractors that can easily maintain almost 30mph. But if you
drive on country roads, you learn to live with it.

But it's really very dangerous, and often not physically possible, to
drive under 30mph - ask any safespeeder. :-)

Nuxx Bar wrote:

I'll come up with a complete list of anti-motorist measures when I've
got time (because it will take a while).

Ah, you can't be bothered to do what you promised to do several days ago
but want us to read your tedious drivel.

Ta ra,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire http://www.shrimper.org.uk

In article , Rob Morley wrote:
In article , Just zis Guy,
you know?

Personally, I find the worst problem on these roads to be the very
large tractors that can easily maintain almost 30mph. But if you
drive on country roads, you learn to live with it.

But it's really very dangerous, and often not physically possible, to
drive under 30mph - ask any safespeeder. :-)

Ah, but that's the danger of having to constantly watch the speedometer
in a 30mph limit, sticking (at least roughly) to a limit while still
being aware of what is around you apparently not being part of their
driving test the way it was for everyone else.

Clearly, the answer is more tractors on urban roads to keep the
safespeeders below 30mph without having to look at their speedometer.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 13:49:12 -0000, Rob Morley
wrote:

4. A stretch of fairly narrow urban road with heavy traffic including
HGVs, and pavements alongside with no pedestrians nearby.

A Cyclist is finding it uncomfortable sharing the road with the heavy
traffic, and after checking carefully to ensure that there are no
pedestrians nearby, cycles on the pavement. They are fined for doing
so by a policeman who was observing from his car further down the
road.

Pavements aren't for cycling - if he was that bothered he could have
pushed the bike.

The fine would almost certainly be overturned on appeal or by judicial
review. Home office advice clearly states that the FPN is not
intended for responsible cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use
the footway out of fear of traffic and who show consideration to other
pavement users.