Tire-making, continued....

thirty-six wrote:
On 21 Nov, 13:07, DougC wrote:
thirty-six wrote:

BTW if you dont use a weftless warp cloth, or nearly so, you
will likely be dissapointed with the results,. You may get your
required look but the performance will be poor.
I don't know what "weftless warp cloth" is.

The weft is the thread which goes from weft to wight on the loom and
the warp goes up. Sorry ,its a warpless weft cloth.

Also, dictionary.com doesn't know, wikipedia doesn't know, and Google
cannot find me a picture of it either...... what exactly do you mean here?

What i meant, I meant, what I said is different.


I still can't find any explanation, aside from a few crocheting
references. Maybe you can?

I don't want it on another bike, and chalk ain't gonna help.
And every method I could find online has been tried and re-tried, in
various combinations and orders, several times. Big Apples simply won't
fit properly on Sun BFR rims.

I've no experience with that equipment but have you tried mounting the
tyre without a tube and rimtape?

No, as I don't know what good that would do.

The tire can be put onto the rim just fine, but when the tube is
inflated, no matter what one does, the tire will seat with a spot that
is 1/4" lower than the rest of the tire.

The tire is not ideal anyway as the tire's width does block the biggest
couple of cogs from being used--but it is annoying anyway....

Are there any tire companies that /aren't/ in China?
~

England, NI, Eire , France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy. Yes there
is.


Might as well be China, as far as them are from me.
And they talk funny too, just like the heartless Chinese--mocking me
with their big fancy tire factories and their woofless warped cloth.
Damn the lot of them.
~

On 21 Nov, 14:03, DougC wrote:


I still can't find any explanation, aside from a few crocheting
references. Maybe you can?

tyre cord fabriic weft warp mill some assortment of these terms
will find you your info.



I've no experience with that equipment but have you tried mounting the
tyre without a tube and rimtape?

No, as I don't know what good that would do.

Identify if those items are interfering with the fit.


The tire can be put onto the rim just fine, but when the tube is
inflated, no matter what one does, the tire will seat with a spot that
is 1/4" lower than the rest of the tire.

Are you taking the tyre up to maximum pressure first, sometimes this
will stabilize a tyre position.

Carpets use a similar base fabric to tyres and Ive seen a reference to
fabric conveyer belts also using similar . So check the backs of
carpets and you may find something sutable.

Doug Cimper wrote:
Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
Doug Cimper wrote:
thirty-six wrote:

kevlar 'wires' are used with hook bead rim otherwise known as crochet
bead rim. If you are not using thistype of rim you need to use steel
wire for the tyre edge as its not the strength of the wire which
matteers so much as its ability to constrain, in other words, its
elasticity. A llarger section or higher running pressure tyre will
need stiffer wires to prevet tyre lift off and non-requisit
demounting. in other words you'll likely roll a tyre with kevlar
bead.

Kevlar has only about 1% elongation before breaking.
[...]

That is plastic deformation, not elastic. For example, the elastomers
used to make rubber bands have a hundred percent elastic deformation
or more before yielding, but only about one percent plastic
deformation before tensile failure.


So where can I buy some of this stretchy kevlar?

Every place selling it I've ever seen gave an "elongation before
breaking" of around 1%.

http://www.pelicanrope.com/new03.htm
~
A braided rope will stretch a certain amount before the fibers deform,
then the fibers will deform elastically (recoverable deformation), then
the fibers will deform plastically (non-recoverable deformation), and
finally fracture. The only value given on the Pelican Rope site is the
amount of plastic deformation before fracture.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

DougC wrote:

Tom Sherman °_° wrote:

That is plastic deformation, not elastic. For example, the elastomers
used to make rubber bands have a hundred percent elastic deformation or
more before yielding, but only about one percent plastic deformation
before tensile failure.

So where can I buy some of this stretchy kevlar?

Every place selling it I've ever seen gave an "elongation before
breaking" of around 1%.

http://www.pelicanrope.com/new03.htm

As Tom Sherman points out in his followup, that 1% is elongation after
yield. Any Kevlar cord is way more elastic than 1%, even if it's not
twined up in rope lay. And any cable with rope lay will have on the
order of 1% elasticity just as deformation and compaction of the
entwined structure.

Chalo

Conti ?

Chalo wrote:
DougC wrote:
Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
That is plastic deformation, not elastic. For example, the elastomers
used to make rubber bands have a hundred percent elastic deformation or
more before yielding, but only about one percent plastic deformation
before tensile failure.
So where can I buy some of this stretchy kevlar?

Every place selling it I've ever seen gave an "elongation before
breaking" of around 1%.

http://www.pelicanrope.com/new03.htm

As Tom Sherman points out in his followup, that 1% is elongation after
yield. Any Kevlar cord is way more elastic than 1%, even if it's not
twined up in rope lay. And any cable with rope lay will have on the
order of 1% elasticity just as deformation and compaction of the
entwined structure.

Chalo


However we note: the question is not simply how much stretch the kevlar
cord has, but how it compares to stainless steel twisted cable.

I've looked all over for anyplace that sells 1x10 strand stainless wire
rope, and can't find anywhere that has it, much less gives any specs on
it. Lots of places do make 1x7 strand, in roughly the same diameter...

Anyhoo--switching to steel wire is certainly possible it it becomes
necessary.
~

On 22 Nov, 21:17, DougC wrote:
Chalo wrote:
DougC wrote:
Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
That is plastic deformation, not elastic. For example, the elastomers
used to make rubber bands have a hundred percent elastic deformation or
more before yielding, but only about one percent plastic deformation
before tensile failure.
So where can I buy some of this stretchy kevlar?

Every place selling it I've ever seen gave an "elongation before
breaking" of around 1%.

http://www.pelicanrope.com/new03.htm

As Tom Sherman points out in his followup, that 1% is elongation after
yield. *Any Kevlar cord is way more elastic than 1%, even if it's not
twined up in rope lay. *And any cable with rope lay will have on the
order of 1% elasticity just as deformation and compaction of the
entwined structure.

Chalo

However we note: the question is not simply how much stretch the kevlar
cord has, but how it compares to stainless steel twisted cable.

I've looked all over for anyplace that sells 1x10 strand stainless wire
rope, and can't find anywhere that has it, much less gives any specs on
it. Lots of places do make 1x7 strand, in roughly the same diameter...

Anyhoo--switching to steel wire is certainly possible it it becomes
necessary.
~

You dont want wire rope, just wire. You need to make the rope in to
the circle by winding one strand upon itself, I dont see any way of
successfully joining rope as a tyre wire. By winding the wire upon
itself it will self lock and so no extra joining method will be needed.

thirty-six wrote:
However we note: the question is not simply how much stretch the kevlar
cord has, but how it compares to stainless steel twisted cable.

I've looked all over for anyplace that sells 1x10 strand stainless wire
rope, and can't find anywhere that has it, much less gives any specs on
it. Lots of places do make 1x7 strand, in roughly the same diameter...

Anyhoo--switching to steel wire is certainly possible it it becomes
necessary.
~

You dont want wire rope, just wire. You need to make the rope in to
the circle by winding one strand upon itself, I dont see any way of
successfully joining rope as a tyre wire. By winding the wire upon
itself it will self lock and so no extra joining method will be needed.

To better inspect the tire's layers, I had cut a 6-inch long piece off
cleanly at both ends. Playing with it I noticed that along one bead,
there was a stiffer section that the other didn't have.

Figuring this was where the ends were joined, I cut it apart and
found..... nothing. There was nothing joining the ends at all, they were
just overlaid about an inch. I would have figured there would be a
crimp-on fastener present.

I had assumed I'd have to find a way to crimp the ends together if I
used steel wire, but that kevlar would be a bit easier, as the ends of
the kevlar could just be tied. (I've seen burned car tires where the
crimp for the steel beads was visible)
....but....
This video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_x0qPM8Ok
shows a bicycle tire being made at a Continental factory; they don't
show the ends of the kevlar being tied at all either. In particular,
note how the worker presses the starting ends into the rubber....

{-also we note--the thickness of the tread is entirely over-represented
in their diagrams-}

I'd also add that the kevlar twine they're using looks about the same
thickness that mine does, only theirs appears black, and kevlar can't be
dyed without damaging it. The only way it can be colored is to combine
it with other fibers that will take dye. So I don't know what's going on
there.

I may have to go destroy a kevlar-bead tire just to see what's in it
exactly.
~

On 22 Nov, 23:51, DougC wrote:

To better inspect the tire's layers, I had cut a 6-inch long piece off
cleanly at both ends. Playing with it I noticed that along one bead,
there was a stiffer section that the other didn't have.

Figuring this was where the ends were joined, I cut it apart and
found..... nothing. There was nothing joining the ends at all, they were
just overlaid about an inch. I would have figured there would be a
crimp-on fastener present.

I dont think you would get away with this with a non-beaded tyre, it
will be easier to construct the tyre on wound wire hoops anyway. A
tension wired tyre, you'll find is easier to make, I think.

I had assumed I'd have to find a way to crimp the ends together if I
used steel wire, but that kevlar would be a bit easier, as the ends of
the kevlar could just be tied. (I've seen burned car tires where the
crimp for the steel beads was visible)
...but....
This video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_x0qPM8Ok
shows a bicycle tire being made at a Continental factory; they don't
show the ends of the kevlar being tied at all either. In particular,
note how the worker presses the starting ends into the rubber....

I think you may find that there are possibly seven wraps of that
kevlar thread, not one.


{-also we note--the thickness of the tread is entirely over-represented
in their diagrams-}

I'd also add that the kevlar twine they're using looks about the same
thickness that mine does, only theirs appears black, and kevlar can't be
dyed without damaging it. The only way it can be colored is to combine
it with other fibers that will take dye. So I don't know what's going on
there.

Dunno. I'd guess it is not 100% kevlar, possibly line mixed in.

I may have to go destroy a kevlar-bead tire just to see what's in it
exactly.

I can remember one that I stripped being slightly off-white and there
just seemed to be thousands of filaments, not twisted except as a
mass. It was not a mixed fibre as far as I could tell. I used a 4x
magniffier on it and the 'fibre' seemed unremarkable at least at that
time, I may see more in it know. It was some time ago and I cant
even be sure what tyre it was.
~