Chain tensioner that doubles as non-turn washers for Alfine

landotter wrote:

wrote:

This got me thinking...would it be possible to combine a non-turn
washer and chain tensioner?

I don't see why one couldn't just JB Weld the anti turn washer on the
outside of the tugs at the correct angle after cutting off any
extraneous lips with a grinder so you could use track nuts on top.

JB Weld... hmmm....

I am hesitant to express misgivings about the powers of JB Weld, but I
will say this: I have a no-fooling-around steel anti-turn washer on
my keychain with axle threads "tapped" through the flats; to me it is
a memento mori regarding all bicycle parts. But it is also evidence
that those things can see some serious torques in their times of
trouble.

Chalo

In article
,
Chalo wrote:

landotter wrote:

wrote:

This got me thinking...would it be possible to combine a non-turn
washer and chain tensioner?

I don't see why one couldn't just JB Weld the anti turn washer on the
outside of the tugs at the correct angle after cutting off any
extraneous lips with a grinder so you could use track nuts on top.

JB Weld... hmmm....

I am hesitant to express misgivings about the powers of JB Weld, but I
will say this: I have a no-fooling-around steel anti-turn washer on
my keychain with axle threads "tapped" through the flats; to me it is
a memento mori regarding all bicycle parts. But it is also evidence
that those things can see some serious torques in their times of
trouble.

Which leads me to ask why won't they put on a simple
torque arm and stop fooling around?

--
Michael Press

On Nov 11, 1:21*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,



*Chalo wrote:
landotter wrote:

wrote:

This got me thinking...would it be possible to combine a non-turn
washer and chain tensioner?

I don't see why one couldn't just JB Weld the anti turn washer on the
outside of the tugs at the correct angle after cutting off any
extraneous lips with a grinder so you could use track nuts on top.

JB Weld... hmmm....

I am hesitant to express misgivings about the powers of JB Weld, but I
will say this: *I have a no-fooling-around steel anti-turn washer on
my keychain with axle threads "tapped" through the flats; to me it is
a memento mori regarding all bicycle parts. *But it is also evidence
that those things can see some serious torques in their times of
trouble.

Which leads me to ask why won't they put on a simple
torque arm and stop fooling around?

The cable stop thingie is just begging to be double purposed for this.
The regular Nexus already uses a boring ole torque arm for the roller
brake--perhaps they didn't want to make even more of a PITA to remove
the rear wheel?

landotter wrote:

Michael Press wrote:

*Chalo wrote:

I have a no-fooling-around steel anti-turn washer on
my keychain with axle threads "tapped" through the flats; to me it is
a memento mori regarding all bicycle parts. *But it is also evidence
that those things can see some serious torques in their times of
trouble.

Which leads me to ask why won't they put on a simple
torque arm and stop fooling around?

No kidding. Rohloff even showed them how to do it with class.

The cable stop thingie is just begging to be double purposed for this.
The regular Nexus already uses a boring ole torque arm for the roller
brake--perhaps they didn't want to make even more of a PITA to remove
the rear wheel?

The way the roller brake works, it wouldn't be feasible for the
reaction arm to do double duty, but yeah-- that cable stop snout thing
would be just the ticket if they beefed it up and put a brake strap
hole in it.

Chalo

On Nov 11, 7:21*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,



*Chalo wrote:
landotter wrote:

wrote:

This got me thinking...would it be possible to combine a non-turn
washer and chain tensioner?

I don't see why one couldn't just JB Weld the anti turn washer on the
outside of the tugs at the correct angle after cutting off any
extraneous lips with a grinder so you could use track nuts on top.

JB Weld... hmmm....

I am hesitant to express misgivings about the powers of JB Weld, but I
will say this: *I have a no-fooling-around steel anti-turn washer on
my keychain with axle threads "tapped" through the flats; to me it is
a memento mori regarding all bicycle parts. *But it is also evidence
that those things can see some serious torques in their times of
trouble.

Which leads me to ask why won't they put on a simple
torque arm and stop fooling around?

--
Michael Press

There is a torque arm for the roller brake on some of these Shimano
hubs but it can't do double duty. However, on the drive side is a stub
almost as long as the brake reaction arm and it would take only
marginal redesign to turn it into a torque arm.

But I must tell you, I have no problem getting the chain tension right
simply by pulling the axle back in the horizontal slot of a track end
and then doing up the track nuts over the non-turn washers. The
irritating thing is not the absence of a torque arm, but having to
undo the brake torque arm before you can make an adjustment.

Andre Jute

In article
,
Andre Jute wrote:

On Nov 11, 7:21*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,



*Chalo wrote:
landotter wrote:

wrote:

This got me thinking...would it be possible to combine a non-turn
washer and chain tensioner?

I don't see why one couldn't just JB Weld the anti turn washer on the
outside of the tugs at the correct angle after cutting off any
extraneous lips with a grinder so you could use track nuts on top.

JB Weld... hmmm....

I am hesitant to express misgivings about the powers of JB Weld, but I
will say this: *I have a no-fooling-around steel anti-turn washer on
my keychain with axle threads "tapped" through the flats; to me it is
a memento mori regarding all bicycle parts. *But it is also evidence
that those things can see some serious torques in their times of
trouble.

Which leads me to ask why won't they put on a simple
torque arm and stop fooling around?

There is a torque arm for the roller brake on some of these Shimano
hubs but it can't do double duty. However, on the drive side is a stub
almost as long as the brake reaction arm and it would take only
marginal redesign to turn it into a torque arm.

But I must tell you, I have no problem getting the chain tension right
simply by pulling the axle back in the horizontal slot of a track end
and then doing up the track nuts over the non-turn washers. The
irritating thing is not the absence of a torque arm, but having to
undo the brake torque arm before you can make an adjustment.

Yes, I see. The torque arm could be linked to the chain stay
with a loop that allows the link to slide parallel to the
chain stay.

--
Michael Press

On Nov 12, 9:40 pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
Andre Jute wrote:



On Nov 11, 7:21 pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,

Chalo wrote:
landotter wrote:

wrote:

This got me thinking...would it be possible to combine a non-turn
washer and chain tensioner?

I don't see why one couldn't just JB Weld the anti turn washer on the
outside of the tugs at the correct angle after cutting off any
extraneous lips with a grinder so you could use track nuts on top.

JB Weld... hmmm....

I am hesitant to express misgivings about the powers of JB Weld, but I
will say this: I have a no-fooling-around steel anti-turn washer on
my keychain with axle threads "tapped" through the flats; to me it is
a memento mori regarding all bicycle parts. But it is also evidence
that those things can see some serious torques in their times of
trouble.

Which leads me to ask why won't they put on a simple
torque arm and stop fooling around?

There is a torque arm for the roller brake on some of these Shimano
hubs but it can't do double duty. However, on the drive side is a stub
almost as long as the brake reaction arm and it would take only
marginal redesign to turn it into a torque arm.

But I must tell you, I have no problem getting the chain tension right
simply by pulling the axle back in the horizontal slot of a track end
and then doing up the track nuts over the non-turn washers. The
irritating thing is not the absence of a torque arm, but having to
undo the brake torque arm before you can make an adjustment.

Yes, I see. The torque arm could be linked to the chain stay
with a loop that allows the link to slide parallel to the
chain stay.

Wasted effort. There are a million more useful things for Shimano
engineers to do.

The anti-turn washers are a cheap, elegant, practical solution. It
just flat works. I don't understand why the OP wants to complicate
something simple that works.

Nor do I understand why Chalo thinks that the long torque arm on the
Rohloff is elegant. In the Rohloff stable the elegant antitorque
variation is the OEM2 axle plate, which merely requires a bolt through
the chassis or the hubside attachment plate in the position of the
nearest disk brake hole to the axle centrepoint, or at any other
position on15 degree intervals which will still allow the wheel to
drop out of the slot when the clamping force on the axle is relaxed.
Even when disc brakes are also used, the Dogbone is not actually
required if you have a third hole and Rohloff's part no. 8560 which
costs less than a dollar (less from your junkbox -- it's just a high
tensile bolt with a nut).

Rohloff's standard anti-turn solution, the OEM1, an axle plate with a
square nub on it which sits in a long vertical dropout slot, is also
also overcomplicated and expensive compared to Shimano's simple
washers. Rohloff is aware of the discrepancy and make the point in
their literature that their hub handles more torque than the Shimano
hub (at best a debatable proposition); were me writing the Rohloff
literature I would instead talk about their version lasting longer
under harsh condition (Shimano's anti-turn washers are just cast ali;
I can easily see them being abraded if dirt gets between them and the
frame and there is the slightest flex).

I have the highest respect for Shimano. The guys who're always
knocking Shimano are blinded by familiarity or simple snobbery to the
fact that Shimano makes truly good gear at really cheap prices. This
thread is a perfect example: to make a better hub gearbox than
Shimano's, Rohloff must charge ten times the price. That is not to
detract from Rohloff fine hubs but rather to highlight Shimano's
exceptional achievement.

Andre Jute
Even tiny engineering points are worth getting right

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...

Rohloff is aware of the discrepancy and make the point in
their literature that their hub handles more torque than the Shimano
hub (at best a debatable proposition)

The force on the bits you're talking about is related to the gearing -
Rohloff have higher and lower gears than shimano, so their arm/nub/whatever
must resist more force.

Even tiny engineering points are worth getting right

Mmm.

Andre Jute wrote:

Nor do I understand why Chalo thinks that the long torque arm on the
Rohloff is elegant.

Tools-free wheel changes and the fact that I can't strip it out. My
Rohloff bike was built with OEM1 compatible dropouts anyway, so it's
only my wife's that needed the torque arm. I only wish my various
coaster and drum brake reaction arms fastened so tidily, though.

(Shimano's anti-turn washers are just cast ali;
I can easily see them being abraded if dirt gets between them and the
frame and there is the slightest flex).

The ones on my Nexus 7 hubs are definitely steel. They couldn't take
the stress otherwise. I'd be very surprised to find that the Alfine
ones are nonferrous.

I have the highest respect for Shimano. The guys who're always
knocking Shimano are blinded by familiarity or simple snobbery to the
fact that Shimano makes truly good gear

Meh. It's good if you think Tektro is good (which I do).

at really cheap prices.

Meh. Their best stuff is as ridiculously expensive as anyone's, and
their cheapest stuff is irredeemable junk. Only a narrow slice in the
middle of the range (e.g. Deore) can reasonably be called good
value.

This
thread is a perfect example: to make a better hub gearbox than
Shimano's, Rohloff must charge ten times the price. That is not to
detract from Rohloff fine hubs but rather to highlight Shimano's
exceptional achievement.

Fallbrook's NuVinci hub costs a third what Rohloff's does, about half
again what Shimano's does, and it is quite a bit more sophisticated
than either one. I reserved judgment on this point until I got to
ride one. It's a nice piece of work.

Chalo

In article
,
Chalo wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:

(Shimano's anti-turn washers are just cast ali;
I can easily see them being abraded if dirt gets between them and the
frame and there is the slightest flex).

The ones on my Nexus 7 hubs are definitely steel. They couldn't take
the stress otherwise. I'd be very surprised to find that the Alfine
ones are nonferrous.

I'm virtually certain mine are steel. They're almost certainly identical
to the "Nexus" bits, since the ghetto Nexus-8 (and formerly-cool Nexus-8
red band) are very similar mechanisms.

I'll take a magnet to my washers.

This
thread is a perfect example: to make a better hub gearbox than
Shimano's, Rohloff must charge ten times the price. That is not to
detract from Rohloff fine hubs but rather to highlight Shimano's
exceptional achievement.

Fallbrook's NuVinci hub costs a third what Rohloff's does, about half
again what Shimano's does, and it is quite a bit more sophisticated
than either one. I reserved judgment on this point until I got to
ride one. It's a nice piece of work.

Sophisticated but heavy. Is the weight penalty worth its advantages over
the Shimano 8?

The Alfine hub on my cyclocross bike is quite impressive. I'm not
getting really consistent shifts out of the twist-grip. On the upside,
the twist-grip makes it easy to "trim" reluctant shifts. The worst sin
seems to be hanging when I try to dump or pick up multiple gears: it
will stay in the previous gear as I shift through, and I have to
hesitate my pedaling for a moment to get it to catch.

That said, it worked in ridiculous conditions last week. The highest
compliment I can pay it is that except when you lift my 24-ish pound
rigid cheater bike and find out it's really tail-heavy, the bike feels
as nice to ride as any derailer machine.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."