What's The Deal with Titanium Chain Locks?

Lee wrote:
"Jim Bianchi" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:48:57 -0400, Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:


It should be noted that the old Soviet Union possessed the largest
workable supply of titanium ore in the world. So much so that they could
easily afford to use it for submarine hulls as well as whole aircraft
fuselages


Um, the Soviet Union didn't have the same kind of budget constraints that we
do...or at least did until BushJr came along.

Lee


The Soviet Union didn't exactly have a budget /at all/ for a while
there. It's why we can buy USSR-made Ti shovels and prybars now.

Dod the USSR ever make a production aircraft out of Ti? I had not heard
of this, what was it? They probably did some one-offs I'm sure. The
/cargo flooring/ of one military cargo jet was Ti stamped panels, and
that was considered insanely expen$$$ive by the rest of the world.

Among US aircraft--the center section of the F-14's wing is Ti, but the
rest of it is aluminum/composites. Ti was too expensive to justify its
use for the rest of the airplane.

By the by--the largest industrial use of Ti alloy in the US is for
hydraulic lines for large aircraft.
--------
As for Ti, it's not particularly the best material for everything; Ti
alloy's main advantge is its fatigue resistance--it resists cracking
when flexed a lot (this would be really good for a submarine). It also
has a somewhat-high melting point, but that's not of a lot of value in
this use really.

What would be best for a lock and chain (I would think) would be forged
(ordinary) carbon steel with diamond dust impregnated into it.
~~~~~~

DougC wrote:

Lee wrote:
"Jim Bianchi" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:48:57 -0400, Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:


It should be noted that the old Soviet Union possessed the largest
workable supply of titanium ore in the world. So much so that they
could easily afford to use it for submarine hulls as well as whole
aircraft fuselages


Um, the Soviet Union didn't have the same kind of budget constraints
that we do...or at least did until BushJr came along.

Lee


The Soviet Union didn't exactly have a budget /at all/ for a while
there. It's why we can buy USSR-made Ti shovels and prybars now.

Dod the USSR ever make a production aircraft out of Ti? I had not
heard of this, what was it? They probably did some one-offs I'm sure.
The /cargo flooring/ of one military cargo jet was Ti stamped panels,
and that was considered insanely expen$$$ive by the rest of the world.

Among US aircraft--the center section of the F-14's wing is Ti, but
the rest of it is aluminum/composites. Ti was too expensive to justify
its use for the rest of the airplane.

By the by--the largest industrial use of Ti alloy in the US is for
hydraulic lines for large aircraft.
--------
As for Ti, it's not particularly the best material for everything; Ti
alloy's main advantge is its fatigue resistance--it resists cracking
when flexed a lot (this would be really good for a submarine). It also
has a somewhat-high melting point, but that's not of a lot of value in
this use really.

What would be best for a lock and chain (I would think) would be
forged (ordinary) carbon steel with diamond dust impregnated into it.
~~~~~~


The A-12s, M-21s, and YF-12s (forerunners of the SR-71) were made of
titanium. The SR-71 is titanium composite.

--
Bill Asher

In article , says...

....

As for Ti, it's not particularly the best material for everything; Ti
alloy's main advantge is its fatigue resistance--it resists cracking
when flexed a lot (this would be really good for a submarine). It also
has a somewhat-high melting point, but that's not of a lot of value in
this use really.

What would be best for a lock and chain (I would think) would be forged
(ordinary) carbon steel with diamond dust impregnated into it.

That would make it pretty resistant to a hacksaw, but I don't think it
would help much against bolt cutters.

~~~~~~

I would think that the biggest advantage of Ti as a chain/lock set would
be its weight. You could get just as strong a chain for much less
weight than a steel one. Or you could get significantly stronger and
still have a somewhat lighter chain, though it would likely be
significantly bulkier. After all, Ti is significantly stronger than
steel on a weight basis, but not on a volume (size) basis.


--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

In article ,
says...

....


The A-12s, M-21s, and YF-12s (forerunners of the SR-71) were made of
titanium. The SR-71 is titanium composite.

I knew about the SR-71's Ti skin, but not the other two.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

DougC wrote:
Lee wrote:

"Jim Bianchi" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:48:57 -0400, Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:



It should be noted that the old Soviet Union possessed the largest
workable supply of titanium ore in the world. So much so that they could
easily afford to use it for submarine hulls as well as whole aircraft
fuselages



Um, the Soviet Union didn't have the same kind of budget constraints
that we do...or at least did until BushJr came along.

Lee

The Soviet Union didn't exactly have a budget /at all/ for a while
there. It's why we can buy USSR-made Ti shovels and prybars now.

Dod the USSR ever make a production aircraft out of Ti? I had not heard
of this, what was it? They probably did some one-offs I'm sure. The
/cargo flooring/ of one military cargo jet was Ti stamped panels, and
that was considered insanely expen$$$ive by the rest of the world.


Dude, 90% of the SR-71 Blackbird was titanium composite.
Your tax dollars at work.

In article , says...
As for Ti, it's not particularly the best material for everything; Ti
alloy's main advantge is its fatigue resistance--it resists cracking
when flexed a lot (this would be really good for a submarine). It also
has a somewhat-high melting point, but that's not of a lot of value in
this use really.
What would be best for a lock and chain (I would think) would be forged
(ordinary) carbon steel with diamond dust impregnated into it.
That would make it pretty resistant to a hacksaw, but I don't think it
would help much against bolt cutters.

David Kerber wrote:
I would think that the biggest advantage of Ti as a chain/lock set would
be its weight. You could get just as strong a chain for much less
weight than a steel one. Or you could get significantly stronger and
still have a somewhat lighter chain, though it would likely be
significantly bulkier. After all, Ti is significantly stronger than
steel on a weight basis, but not on a volume (size) basis.

Step back and see the whole problem: Titanium cuts quite easily with a
hacksaw - much easier than steel. Disc grinder about the same for both.
Bolt cutter won't help much with Ti. Picking the lock is another way. In
our neighborhood, drunks who kick wheels are a regular and real risk -
much more common than theft. And too, some thefts here are bike locked
only to itself, just carried away.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article , A Muzi
wrote:

David Kerber wrote:
I would think that the biggest advantage of Ti as a chain/lock set would
be its weight. You could get just as strong a chain for much less
weight than a steel one. Or you could get significantly stronger and
still have a somewhat lighter chain, though it would likely be
significantly bulkier. After all, Ti is significantly stronger than
steel on a weight basis, but not on a volume (size) basis.

Step back and see the whole problem: Titanium cuts quite easily with a
hacksaw - much easier than steel.

Well, that depends on the alloy and heat treat levels of the titanium and steel
being compared, as well as the lubrication (if any) being used.

Something to consider: Order some titanium (say CP) from a material supplier, and
some steel (say 1018). If titanium is so easily cut, why are the cutting fees for it
so much higher than when they cut your steel?

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:24:10 -0700, Howard Kveck
wrote:

In article , A Muzi
wrote:

David Kerber wrote:
I would think that the biggest advantage of Ti as a chain/lock set would
be its weight. You could get just as strong a chain for much less
weight than a steel one. Or you could get significantly stronger and
still have a somewhat lighter chain, though it would likely be
significantly bulkier. After all, Ti is significantly stronger than
steel on a weight basis, but not on a volume (size) basis.

Step back and see the whole problem: Titanium cuts quite easily with a
hacksaw - much easier than steel.

Well, that depends on the alloy and heat treat levels of the titanium and steel
being compared, as well as the lubrication (if any) being used.

Something to consider: Order some titanium (say CP) from a material supplier, and
some steel (say 1018). If titanium is so easily cut, why are the cutting fees for it
so much higher than when they cut your steel?

Dear Howard,

Because . . .

"Compared to steel, titanium alloys offer several advantages. Their
density is only about half that of steel, so parts made from them
weigh roughly half as much as steel parts. Yet their strength exceeds
steel's, and they have twice the elasticity. That makes them ideal for
applications that require flexible materials that don't crack or
rupture. Titanium alloys resist corrosion better than the best
stainless steels. And, like steel, titanium alloys can be readily cast
or forged and are widely available to the industrial market."

"There are drawbacks, however. Most titanium alloys are poor thermal
conductors. Heat generated during cutting doesn't dissipate through
the part and machine table, but tends to concentrate in the cutting
area. The high temperatures - 2000 deg. F in some cases - temper and
dull cutting edges. These dull edges generate even more heat, further
shortening tool life. Cutting temperatures can get so high that chips
sometimes burst into flames."

"Titanium alloys' elasticity, so beneficial to finished parts, makes
them especially difficult to machine. Under cutting pressures, the
"springy" materials move away from the tool. Consequently, the cutting
edges rub rather than cut, particularly when making light cuts. The
rubbing process generates more heat, compounding problems caused by
poor thermal conductivity."

"As a result of the normal cutting process, titanium alloys tend to
workharden. This is especially true when an inappropriate tool is
applied. Instead of cutting the part, the wrong tool "pushes" it,
straining the alloy. As the material moves away from the cutting edge
it deforms plastically rather than elastically. Plastic deformation
increases the material's strength - and, unfortunately, its hardness -
at the point of cut. As the alloy reaches a higher level of hardness
and strength, cutting speeds that were appropriate at the start of the
cut become excessive, and the tool wears dramatically."

"Many shops misunderstand these peculiarities, and take a
trial-and-error approach to machining titanium alloys. They spend
considerable sums on cutting tools, trying to find the ones that work.
Some have even gone out of business as a result. Other shops,
intimidated by the prospector ruining parts worth thousands of
dollars, avoid working with the materials altogether."

"Despite titanium alloys' reputation for toughness, they can be
machined successfully and cost-effectively. Those shops that have
taken the time to learn how to machine the materials, in fact,
consider them a 'piece of cake.'"

http://www.hanita.com/hanita_protected/hanita-art3.htm

Taking time to learn how to machine titanium means higher charges,
particularly since there's far less demand than for steel cutting.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:24:10 -0700, Howard Kveck
wrote:

In article , A Muzi

wrote:

David Kerber wrote:
I would think that the biggest advantage of Ti as a chain/lock set would
be its weight. You could get just as strong a chain for much less
weight than a steel one. Or you could get significantly stronger and
still have a somewhat lighter chain, though it would likely be
significantly bulkier. After all, Ti is significantly stronger than
steel on a weight basis, but not on a volume (size) basis.

Step back and see the whole problem: Titanium cuts quite easily with a
hacksaw - much easier than steel.

Well, that depends on the alloy and heat treat levels of the titanium and
steel
being compared, as well as the lubrication (if any) being used.

Something to consider: Order some titanium (say CP) from a material
supplier, and
some steel (say 1018). If titanium is so easily cut, why are the cutting
fees for it
so much higher than when they cut your steel?

Dear Howard,

Because . . .

"Compared to steel, titanium alloys offer several advantages. Their
density is only about half that of steel, so parts made from them
weigh roughly half as much as steel parts. Yet their strength exceeds
steel's, and they have twice the elasticity. That makes them ideal for
applications that require flexible materials that don't crack or
rupture. Titanium alloys resist corrosion better than the best
stainless steels. And, like steel, titanium alloys can be readily cast
or forged and are widely available to the industrial market."

"There are drawbacks, however. Most titanium alloys are poor thermal
conductors. Heat generated during cutting doesn't dissipate through
the part and machine table, but tends to concentrate in the cutting
area. The high temperatures - 2000 deg. F in some cases - temper and
dull cutting edges. These dull edges generate even more heat, further
shortening tool life. Cutting temperatures can get so high that chips
sometimes burst into flames."

"Titanium alloys' elasticity, so beneficial to finished parts, makes
them especially difficult to machine. Under cutting pressures, the
"springy" materials move away from the tool. Consequently, the cutting
edges rub rather than cut, particularly when making light cuts. The
rubbing process generates more heat, compounding problems caused by
poor thermal conductivity."

"As a result of the normal cutting process, titanium alloys tend to
workharden. This is especially true when an inappropriate tool is
applied. Instead of cutting the part, the wrong tool "pushes" it,
straining the alloy. As the material moves away from the cutting edge
it deforms plastically rather than elastically. Plastic deformation
increases the material's strength - and, unfortunately, its hardness -
at the point of cut. As the alloy reaches a higher level of hardness
and strength, cutting speeds that were appropriate at the start of the
cut become excessive, and the tool wears dramatically."

"Many shops misunderstand these peculiarities, and take a
trial-and-error approach to machining titanium alloys. They spend
considerable sums on cutting tools, trying to find the ones that work.
Some have even gone out of business as a result. Other shops,
intimidated by the prospector ruining parts worth thousands of
dollars, avoid working with the materials altogether."

"Despite titanium alloys' reputation for toughness, they can be
machined successfully and cost-effectively. Those shops that have
taken the time to learn how to machine the materials, in fact,
consider them a 'piece of cake.'"

http://www.hanita.com/hanita_protected/hanita-art3.htm

Taking time to learn how to machine titanium means higher charges,
particularly since there's far less demand than for steel cutting.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl, all that stuff is true. When I go to mill or turn titanium, I already know
what speeds, feeds, tool geometries and substrates to use, and I get right on with
the job at hand. No molten tools or base metal, either. I even use plenty of Hanita
end mills. But Andrew was talking about using a *hacksaw*. Besides, the places that
supply and cut material have generally been at it long enough to have an idea how to
go at it (at least I'd hope they aren't doing trial and error after the first few
weeks). They still charge more for cutting titanium than steel. I'd rather mill or
turn titanium than steel any day, though.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 23:46:07 -0700, Howard Kveck
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:24:10 -0700, Howard Kveck
wrote:

In article , A Muzi

wrote:

David Kerber wrote:
I would think that the biggest advantage of Ti as a chain/lock set would
be its weight. You could get just as strong a chain for much less
weight than a steel one. Or you could get significantly stronger and
still have a somewhat lighter chain, though it would likely be
significantly bulkier. After all, Ti is significantly stronger than
steel on a weight basis, but not on a volume (size) basis.

Step back and see the whole problem: Titanium cuts quite easily with a
hacksaw - much easier than steel.

Well, that depends on the alloy and heat treat levels of the titanium and
steel
being compared, as well as the lubrication (if any) being used.

Something to consider: Order some titanium (say CP) from a material
supplier, and
some steel (say 1018). If titanium is so easily cut, why are the cutting
fees for it
so much higher than when they cut your steel?

Dear Howard,

Because . . .

"Compared to steel, titanium alloys offer several advantages. Their
density is only about half that of steel, so parts made from them
weigh roughly half as much as steel parts. Yet their strength exceeds
steel's, and they have twice the elasticity. That makes them ideal for
applications that require flexible materials that don't crack or
rupture. Titanium alloys resist corrosion better than the best
stainless steels. And, like steel, titanium alloys can be readily cast
or forged and are widely available to the industrial market."

"There are drawbacks, however. Most titanium alloys are poor thermal
conductors. Heat generated during cutting doesn't dissipate through
the part and machine table, but tends to concentrate in the cutting
area. The high temperatures - 2000 deg. F in some cases - temper and
dull cutting edges. These dull edges generate even more heat, further
shortening tool life. Cutting temperatures can get so high that chips
sometimes burst into flames."

"Titanium alloys' elasticity, so beneficial to finished parts, makes
them especially difficult to machine. Under cutting pressures, the
"springy" materials move away from the tool. Consequently, the cutting
edges rub rather than cut, particularly when making light cuts. The
rubbing process generates more heat, compounding problems caused by
poor thermal conductivity."

"As a result of the normal cutting process, titanium alloys tend to
workharden. This is especially true when an inappropriate tool is
applied. Instead of cutting the part, the wrong tool "pushes" it,
straining the alloy. As the material moves away from the cutting edge
it deforms plastically rather than elastically. Plastic deformation
increases the material's strength - and, unfortunately, its hardness -
at the point of cut. As the alloy reaches a higher level of hardness
and strength, cutting speeds that were appropriate at the start of the
cut become excessive, and the tool wears dramatically."

"Many shops misunderstand these peculiarities, and take a
trial-and-error approach to machining titanium alloys. They spend
considerable sums on cutting tools, trying to find the ones that work.
Some have even gone out of business as a result. Other shops,
intimidated by the prospector ruining parts worth thousands of
dollars, avoid working with the materials altogether."

"Despite titanium alloys' reputation for toughness, they can be
machined successfully and cost-effectively. Those shops that have
taken the time to learn how to machine the materials, in fact,
consider them a 'piece of cake.'"

http://www.hanita.com/hanita_protected/hanita-art3.htm

Taking time to learn how to machine titanium means higher charges,
particularly since there's far less demand than for steel cutting.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl, all that stuff is true. When I go to mill or turn titanium, I already know
what speeds, feeds, tool geometries and substrates to use, and I get right on with
the job at hand. No molten tools or base metal, either. I even use plenty of Hanita
end mills. But Andrew was talking about using a *hacksaw*. Besides, the places that
supply and cut material have generally been at it long enough to have an idea how to
go at it (at least I'd hope they aren't doing trial and error after the first few
weeks). They still charge more for cutting titanium than steel. I'd rather mill or
turn titanium than steel any day, though.

Dear Howard,

Sorry, I didn't spell my point out.

Titanium is, as you originally pointed out, more expensive to cut well
with machine tools than steel.

But titanium is as easy or easier to cut than steel if you're using a
hand hacksaw to destroy a single chain link.

A thief cutting a titanium chain doesn't reach high temperatures, care
about his 99-cent hacksaw blade, or worry about how precisely the
edges of the cut and the finished work match up to a customer's
requirements. He just saws right through it.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel