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#21
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Where is the Attempted Murder Charge?
In article
, Jay Beattie wrote: On Jun 15, 10:11Â*am, Phil W Lee wrote: Dan O considered Wed, 15 Jun 2011 07:15:40 -0700 (PDT) the perfect time to write: On Jun 14, 12:16Â*pm, Phil W Lee wrote: snip What we need are proper penalties for abuse of the privilege of motor vehicle use. Heavy fines for the responsible party in any collision - and if they can't decide which party that was, the fine should be split between them, not ignored. Â*The full cost of the clear up and medical treatment necessary should be charged to their insurance. Any injury should result in imprisonment, the duration depending on the severity - why should the perpetrator recover any more quickly than their victim? Â*Permanent disablement or death should equal life imprisonment. NOBODY who has caused any doubt to be raised over their ability to use a motor vehicle safely should be allowed further use. Â*End of story. Okay, but "any doubt" in *whose* Â*mind? Any contact with another vehicle, object or person that can't be entirely attributed to another party. I repeat, the vagaries of human nature in all its splendor abound at the controls of traffic. Â*(Whjee) If people knew that these were the consequences of an "accident" they'd take the necessary care to avoid them. Absolutely right! Â*It's about time. If licence suspensions and/or revocations were used more often, people would get used to the idea of alternatives to driving, and it would be economically viable to provide those alternatives. No, they would get used to driving without a license -- and without insurance. The accident described in the original post involved an aparent psychopathic driver. Most non-psychopathic drivers want to avoid accidents and do not need further incentive -- e.g., the threat of license suspension or revocation for an "accident." Psychopaths don't care and are probably driving without a license anyway. The people who do the most damage are rarely those who respond to bland punishments. Hear! Hear! -- Michael Press |
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Where is the Attempted Murder Charge?
Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jun 15, 10:11 am, Phil W Lee wrote: Dan O considered Wed, 15 Jun 2011 07:15:40 -0700 (PDT) the perfect time to write: On Jun 14, 12:16 pm, Phil W Lee wrote: snip What we need are proper penalties for abuse of the privilege of motor vehicle use. Heavy fines for the responsible party in any collision - and if they can't decide which party that was, the fine should be split between them, not ignored. The full cost of the clear up and medical treatment necessary should be charged to their insurance. Any injury should result in imprisonment, the duration depending on the severity - why should the perpetrator recover any more quickly than their victim? Permanent disablement or death should equal life imprisonment. NOBODY who has caused any doubt to be raised over their ability to use a motor vehicle safely should be allowed further use. End of story. Okay, but "any doubt" in *whose* mind? Any contact with another vehicle, object or person that can't be entirely attributed to another party. I repeat, the vagaries of human nature in all its splendor abound at the controls of traffic. (Whjee) If people knew that these were the consequences of an "accident" they'd take the necessary care to avoid them. Absolutely right! It's about time. If licence suspensions and/or revocations were used more often, people would get used to the idea of alternatives to driving, and it would be economically viable to provide those alternatives. No, they would get used to driving without a license -- and without insurance. The accident described in the original post involved an aparent psychopathic driver. Most non-psychopathic drivers want to avoid accidents and do not need further incentive -- e.g., the threat of license suspension or revocation for an "accident." Psychopaths don't care and are probably driving without a license anyway. The people who do the most damage are rarely those who respond to bland punishments. -- Jay Beattie. OK, good argument. But there are just so damned many psychopaths out the http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/06/...run-kills-girl http://preview.tinyurl.com/5vcvgxv As a daily newspaper reader, it's overwhelming. No, I do not have an answer to the problem. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#23
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Where is the Attempted Murder Charge?
Ronko wrote:
In article , phil@lee- family.me.uk says... "lee.watkins" considered Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:31:26 -0700 (PDT) the perfect time to write: The basis of this mentality is authoritarianism, which is now the predominant right-wing conservative perspective in the USA, particularly Christian Conservatism. Violence directed towards perceived lower tiers without conscience, combined with a kiss-up attitude towards authority figures. The driver assumes anyone else would do the same thing given the opportunity. The perception is magnified by the metaphor that the car did the violence on the drivers' behalf (absolution), and the cyclists' lack of official operators credentials. The language used in newspaper articles and local broadcast TV/radio to describe automobile crashes is intended to reinforce the absolution, in part because automobile manufactures/retailers are the primary (and sometimes only) advertising revenue source. The lack of enforcement of harsh fines or jail time for this behavior removes any doubt that this behavior is sanctioned. This is driven by conservative politics. the lack of cyclist licensing and registration/plates credentials informs an authoritarian that the cyclist does not belong on the road and thus should be punished for getting in the way, or even just for fun. I think the best way to counter all this is to make cycling more Authoritarian friendly. An vigorous licensing and registration bureaucracy. Drum up patriotic and religious associations with the bicycle. The flag, cross, and bible imagery! Build segregated bikeways like in Europe, protected with bollards and make it downright christian and patriotic. What utter cobblers. What we need are proper penalties for abuse of the privilege of motor vehicle use. Heavy fines for the responsible party in any collision - and if they can't decide which party that was, the fine should be split between them, not ignored. The full cost of the clear up and medical treatment necessary should be charged to their insurance. Any injury should result in imprisonment, the duration depending on the severity - why should the perpetrator recover any more quickly than their victim? Permanent disablement or death should equal life imprisonment. NOBODY who has caused any doubt to be raised over their ability to use a motor vehicle safely should be allowed further use. End of story. If people knew that these were the consequences of an "accident" they'd take the necessary care to avoid them. Logically Christian conservatives have every supposed moral, ethical, and principled reason to be all about bikes, but modern conservatives have no conscience. They really don't - at least not since Goldwater! You have to give them increasingly authoritarian reasons. and that can be done and will work like a charm. On Jun 12, 5:01 pm, Tºm Shermªn °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI $southslope.net" wrote: Police report: "THE CYCLIST WAS WEST BOUND ON MS50 NEAR THE TRULOVE LOOP INTERSECTION.  V1 WAS WEST BOUND ON MS50 APPROACHING THE CYCLIST FROM THE REAR.  THE FRONT OF V1 COLLIDED WITH THE REAR OF THE BICYCLE.  THE IMPACT THREW THE CYCLIST INTO THE AIR BEFORE LANDING ON THE HOOD OF V1 AND ONTO THE WINDSHIELD.  V1 CONTINUED FOR A FEW FEET BEFORE COMING TO A STOP.  THE CYCLIST WAS THEN THROWN TO THE ASPHALT WHEN V1 STOPPED.  THE DRIVER OF V1 EXITED THE VEHICLE AND OBSERVED THE CYCLIST WHILE TALKING ON THE PHONE.  D1 THEN REENTERED HER VEHICLE AND RAN THE CYCLIST OVER AGAIN BEFORE BEING FORCED FROM HER VEHICLE BY WITNESSES.  V1 CAME TO FINAL REST FACING WEST IN THE WEST BOUND LANE ON MS 50 JUST METERS WEST OF THE TRULOVE LOOP INTERSECTION.  THE CYCLIST CAME TO FINAL REST NEAR THE RIGHT FRONT TIRE OF V1." See http://www.accidentin.com/article307..._of_accident_v... . Why is Robbie Norton, 44, of Cedar Bluff, MS still free to commit mayhem with her vehicle? http://www.starkvilledailynews.com/node/5919 -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. 3500 pound car protecting the motorist vs cyclist with no metal around him/her means the car wins every time. Unfortuneatly that's the nature of the beast and drivers, if cited at all, are only cited for driving erratically or not staying in the lane or some other only citable offense. The cyclist is left with serious or fatal injuries and if fortuneate enough to get hit by a driver with adequate resources or insurance, can gain some financial recourse in civil court. However, this case of the driver hitting the cyclist a second time is an entirely different matter. If intent of the driver's part can be shown, this probably warrants assault with a deadly weapon or attempted manslaughter/murder type of charge. I would like to see that. Local politics and attitude toward bicyclists usually plays a critical part in how the offender is charged, if at all. 'every time' is categorical. My employee ran a red light on his bicycle, smashed a car panel with his shoulder and was both cited and billed for the damage. No injuries to shoulder or bicycle. I can't imagine how the second battery could be anything but 'with intent'. We'll see how the jury parses it. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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Where is the Attempted Murder Charge?
On Jun 15, 3:09*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jun 15, 10:11*am, Phil W Lee wrote: Dan O considered Wed, 15 Jun 2011 07:15:40 -0700 (PDT) the perfect time to write: On Jun 14, 12:16*pm, Phil W Lee wrote: snip What we need are proper penalties for abuse of the privilege of motor vehicle use. Heavy fines for the responsible party in any collision - and if they can't decide which party that was, the fine should be split between them, not ignored. *The full cost of the clear up and medical treatment necessary should be charged to their insurance. Any injury should result in imprisonment, the duration depending on the severity - why should the perpetrator recover any more quickly than their victim? *Permanent disablement or death should equal life imprisonment. NOBODY who has caused any doubt to be raised over their ability to use a motor vehicle safely should be allowed further use. *End of story. Okay, but "any doubt" in *whose* *mind? Any contact with another vehicle, object or person that can't be entirely attributed to another party. I repeat, the vagaries of human nature in all its splendor abound at the controls of traffic. *(Whjee) If people knew that these were the consequences of an "accident" they'd take the necessary care to avoid them. Absolutely right! *It's about time. If licence suspensions and/or revocations were used more often, people would get used to the idea of alternatives to driving, and it would be economically viable to provide those alternatives. No, they would get used to driving without a license -- and without insurance. The accident described in the original post involved an aparent psychopathic driver. *Most non-psychopathic drivers want to avoid accidents and do not need further incentive -- e.g., the threat of license suspension or revocation for an "accident." *Psychopaths don't care and are probably driving without a license anyway. The people who do the most damage are rarely those who respond to bland punishments. There's not much you can do with psychopaths, AFAIK. They're certainly a problem. But they're rare. Most damage to cyclists (and peds) is done by much more ordinary people, who are just insufficiently careful. Changes in liability laws and penalties can cause very significant improvements in their behavior. As mentioned before, friends in Zurich described how walking in that city was transformed for the better after a strict liability law went into effect on motorists. And those laws are probably responsible for much of the greater safety (for both pedestrians and cyclists) in several northern European countries. By contrast, the US laws seem to say "You can drive a car no matter who you are or what you've done." That's messed up. - Frank Krygowski |
#25
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Where is the Attempted Murder Charge?
On Jun 15, 8:58*pm, AMuzi wrote:
But there are just so damned many psychopaths out thehttp://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/06/...s-girl-on-bike... http://preview.tinyurl.com/5vcvgxv On Professor Hare's widely used scale, about one in a 100 Americans is a psychopath, including the majority of those in prison and almost everyone on death row. The equivalent number for Britain is one in 200, half the density of psychopaths compared to the States. So a bicyclist doesn't have to be on a busy road very long to be in close proximity to a psychopath in charge of a moving lethal weapon. Whatever the precise number of psychopaths in any location, it is too high! Andre Jute Visit Andre's books http://coolmainpress.com/andrejute.html |
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Where is the Attempted Murder Charge?
On Jun 15, 9:16*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
There's not much you can do with psychopaths, AFAIK. *They're certainly a problem. *But they're rare. Nonsense. On a widely used scale 1 in every 100 Americans is a psychopath. Several pass you on street every hour you cycle, Frank. That said, I actually agree with the rest of what Frank said. On the rare occasion when I've experienced deliberately aggressive behavior from motorists it has been from a testosterone of young or youngish men in a car. Most damage to cyclists (and peds) is done by much more ordinary people, who are just insufficiently careful. *Changes in liability laws and penalties can cause very significant improvements in their behavior. As mentioned before, friends in Zurich described how walking in that city was transformed for the better after a strict liability law went into effect on motorists. *And those laws are probably responsible for much of the greater safety (for both pedestrians and cyclists) in several northern European countries. By contrast, the US laws seem to say "You can drive a car no matter who you are or what you've done." *That's messed up. Chalo made a really good point not too long ago, the implications of which we haven't yet assimilated. He pointed out that the bicyclist is on the road by natural right, without having to be licensed, whereas the motorist is on the road as a privilege, by license from the community, and, in consideration of being in charge of overwhelming force, in fact a lethal weapon, should behave accordingly. It is the principle on which Dutch road law operates, and all it takes is a stricter or just a more even-handed application of existing laws of liability. Andre Jute Visit Jute on Bicycles at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html |
#27
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Where is the Attempted Murder Charge?
On 6/15/2011 2:09 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jun 15, 10:11�am, Phil W wrote: Dan considered Wed, 15 Jun 2011 07:15:40 -0700 (PDT) the perfect time to write: On Jun 14, 12:16�pm, Phil W wrote: snip What we need are proper penalties for abuse of the privilege of motor vehicle use. Heavy fines for the responsible party in any collision - and if they can't decide which party that was, the fine should be split between them, not ignored. �The full cost of the clear up and medical treatment necessary should be charged to their insurance. Any injury should result in imprisonment, the duration depending on the severity - why should the perpetrator recover any more quickly than their victim? �Permanent disablement or death should equal life imprisonment. NOBODY who has caused any doubt to be raised over their ability to use a motor vehicle safely should be allowed further use. �End of story. Okay, but "any doubt" in *whose* �mind? Any contact with another vehicle, object or person that can't be entirely attributed to another party. I repeat, the vagaries of human nature in all its splendor abound at the controls of traffic. �(Whjee) If people knew that these were the consequences of an "accident" they'd take the necessary care to avoid them. Absolutely right! �It's about time. If licence suspensions and/or revocations were used more often, people would get used to the idea of alternatives to driving, and it would be economically viable to provide those alternatives. No, they would get used to driving without a license -- and without insurance. [...] This was very common in the 'hood in Milwaukee where I used to work. Many of the vehicles were also unregistered and/or stolen. The paint striped bicycle lanes were often used for passing on the right by motorists going 20-30 mph over the speed limit. -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#28
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Where is the Attempted Murder Charge?
On 6/15/2011 3:54 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 15, 8:58�pm, wrote: But there are just so damned many psychopaths out thehttp://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/06/...s-girl-on-bike... http://preview.tinyurl.com/5vcvgxv On Professor Hare's widely used scale, about one in a 100 Americans is a psychopath, including the majority of those in prison and almost everyone on death row. [...] Before the death penalty was revoked in Illinois, almost half of those on death row had their convictions overturned based on DNA evidence that was not available [1], and/or evidence that had been illegally suppressed by the police and/or prosecution. The latter makes one wonder who the real psychopaths are. [1] Strictly speaking, the evidence was available, but the testing methods were not. -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#29
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Where is the Attempted Murder Charge?
On 16/06/2011 5:26 AM, Ronko wrote:
3500 pound car protecting the motorist vs cyclist with no metal around him/her means the car wins every time. Yes mostly, but not always. I went to pick up my wife's car from having the exhaust fixed. I jumped on the MTB, and as it was only a couple of kms down the road, I rolled along the footpath to avoid having to cross a busy narrow road twice for the sake of about 0.5km. I was coasting along, watching driveways intently, when a dude in his car appeared from behind some big bushes. He was driving so fast, he didn't have time to stop before he had crossed the footpath and the front wheels were almost in the gutter. I jammed on the brakes (my hands were already on the levers), and slid to a halt as my right knee connected with the front left quarter panel. Me and my bike were fine. His car cost him over $1000 to repair. He threatened to take me to court (I shouldn't have been riding on the footpath, but by the same token, he failed to give way to pedestrian traffic when he crossed the footpath), but it never came to that. I think he realised it was going to cost him more than it was worth. So, I chalked up a win that day. -- JS. |
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Where is the Attempted Murder Charge?
On 6/15/2011 4:05 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 15, 9:16�pm, Frank wrote: There's not much you can do with psychopaths, AFAIK. �They're certainly a problem. �But they're rare. Nonsense. On a widely used scale 1 in every 100 Americans is a psychopath. Several pass you on street every hour you cycle, Frank. That said, I actually agree with the rest of what Frank said. On the rare occasion when I've experienced deliberately aggressive behavior from motorists it has been from a testosterone of young or youngish men in a car.[...] While psychopaths do not have empathy for others, many *do* care about themselves, and therefore will be deterred from wrongful actions, unless they find the probability of getting away with harming others to be high. Therefore, the proportion of motorists who would murder a cyclist is much lower than 1 in 100, or there would be tens of thousands of cyclist deaths per year (in the US), rather than 7 or 8 hundred. -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
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