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Helmets: A religious question



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 29th 04, 04:04 PM
-
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Default Helmets: A religious question

1. Any post having to do with whether helmets are good or bad,
worthwhile or useless, whether they save lives or are a waste of money,
etc., etc., is essentially religious in nature, and therefore not subject
to rational argument.

2. While there may indeed be some underlying "truth" concerning the
utility of helmets, those who contribute to such threads are generally
more interested in expounding their own opinions (as supported by their
own data selections, interpretations, etc.) than in arriving at a
consensus as to what such an underlying truth might be. The supposedly
"logical" arguments that fill such posts are nothing but a pretext.

3. Opinions in this matter are held with religious conviction: Have you
ever read a statement such as, "I used to think helmets were useless,
until I read the post by Mr. Z. Now I wear one all the time. Thanks for
your great insights, Mr. Z!" No, you have not. (Well, people do change
their religions, so I guess such an exchange would be theoretically
possible, but at a minimum, people of different faiths all believe in a
God of _some_ kind. The helmet wars are more like the believers against
the atheists.)

Conclusion: All pro- or con- helmet posts, as well as those supposedly
soliciting advice about helmets ("Are helmets worth it?" etc., etc., are,
ipso facto, trolls, i.e., invitations to argue -- if not with the poster,
then with each other. A post with a subject line such as "New helmet
research results -- not a troll" is, in fact, a bald-faced troll. Can you
spell T-R-O-L-L? (You can spell it H-E-L-M-E-T if you like!)

Have fun debating this proposition.

AGM



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  #2  
Old August 29th 04, 04:17 PM
Mitch Haley
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Default

- wrote:

2. While there may indeed be some underlying "truth" concerning the
utility of helmets, those who contribute to such threads are generally
more interested in expounding their own opinions (as supported by their
own data selections, interpretations, etc.) than in arriving at a
consensus as to what such an underlying truth might be. The supposedly
"logical" arguments that fill such posts are nothing but a pretext.


You appear to have described JPoulos and BZaumen, but most everybody
else here is open to discussion of the facts. You can't, however, make
false claims as to the facts without getting stomped on by the ones who
did their homework and know better.



3. Opinions in this matter are held with religious conviction: Have you
ever read a statement such as, "I used to think helmets were useless,
until I read the post by Mr. Z. Now I wear one all the time. Thanks for
your great insights, Mr. Z!" No, you have not. (Well, people do change
their religions, so I guess such an exchange would be theoretically
possible,


I grew up believing in God and motorcycle helmets. It wasn't a far
jump from there to believing in bicycle helmet advertising. In the
late 1980's I saw the rapid changeover from helmets to foam hats and
began to think that style was more important than protection. It didn't
matter that much to me, I still had a stockpile of helmets that would
last me a while. It was here that I first began to realize it was all
about style and profits, and not at all about injury prevention.

A post with a subject line such as "New helmet
research results -- not a troll" is, in fact, a bald-faced troll. Can you
spell T-R-O-L-L? (You can spell it H-E-L-M-E-T if you like!)
Have fun debating this proposition.


Now who is trolling?

Mitch.
  #3  
Old August 29th 04, 04:17 PM
Mitch Haley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

- wrote:

2. While there may indeed be some underlying "truth" concerning the
utility of helmets, those who contribute to such threads are generally
more interested in expounding their own opinions (as supported by their
own data selections, interpretations, etc.) than in arriving at a
consensus as to what such an underlying truth might be. The supposedly
"logical" arguments that fill such posts are nothing but a pretext.


You appear to have described JPoulos and BZaumen, but most everybody
else here is open to discussion of the facts. You can't, however, make
false claims as to the facts without getting stomped on by the ones who
did their homework and know better.



3. Opinions in this matter are held with religious conviction: Have you
ever read a statement such as, "I used to think helmets were useless,
until I read the post by Mr. Z. Now I wear one all the time. Thanks for
your great insights, Mr. Z!" No, you have not. (Well, people do change
their religions, so I guess such an exchange would be theoretically
possible,


I grew up believing in God and motorcycle helmets. It wasn't a far
jump from there to believing in bicycle helmet advertising. In the
late 1980's I saw the rapid changeover from helmets to foam hats and
began to think that style was more important than protection. It didn't
matter that much to me, I still had a stockpile of helmets that would
last me a while. It was here that I first began to realize it was all
about style and profits, and not at all about injury prevention.

A post with a subject line such as "New helmet
research results -- not a troll" is, in fact, a bald-faced troll. Can you
spell T-R-O-L-L? (You can spell it H-E-L-M-E-T if you like!)
Have fun debating this proposition.


Now who is trolling?

Mitch.
  #4  
Old August 29th 04, 10:39 PM
Paul Cassel
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Posts: n/a
Default

Mitch Haley wrote:



I grew up believing in God and motorcycle helmets. It wasn't a far
jump from there to believing in bicycle helmet advertising. In the
late 1980's I saw the rapid changeover from helmets to foam hats and
began to think that style was more important than protection. It didn't
matter that much to me, I still had a stockpile of helmets that would
last me a while. It was here that I first began to realize it was all
about style and profits, and not at all about injury prevention.


Do you wear motorcycle helmets on a bicycle? Nobody I've heard of denies
motorcycle helmets prevent some injuries in a crash. The debate is if
wearing of them causes more crashes due to limited scan, hearing, etc.
OTOH, there seems to be some inferential evidence that wearing helmets
on a bicycle can create injury. That's something I've never heard
claimed for motorcycle helmets.

-paul
  #5  
Old August 29th 04, 10:39 PM
Paul Cassel
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Posts: n/a
Default

Mitch Haley wrote:



I grew up believing in God and motorcycle helmets. It wasn't a far
jump from there to believing in bicycle helmet advertising. In the
late 1980's I saw the rapid changeover from helmets to foam hats and
began to think that style was more important than protection. It didn't
matter that much to me, I still had a stockpile of helmets that would
last me a while. It was here that I first began to realize it was all
about style and profits, and not at all about injury prevention.


Do you wear motorcycle helmets on a bicycle? Nobody I've heard of denies
motorcycle helmets prevent some injuries in a crash. The debate is if
wearing of them causes more crashes due to limited scan, hearing, etc.
OTOH, there seems to be some inferential evidence that wearing helmets
on a bicycle can create injury. That's something I've never heard
claimed for motorcycle helmets.

-paul
  #6  
Old August 30th 04, 12:45 AM
Peter
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Posts: n/a
Default

Paul Cassel wrote:
Mitch Haley wrote:


I grew up believing in God and motorcycle helmets. It wasn't a far
jump from there to believing in bicycle helmet advertising. In the
late 1980's I saw the rapid changeover from helmets to foam hats and
began to think that style was more important than protection. It didn't
matter that much to me, I still had a stockpile of helmets that would
last me a while. It was here that I first began to realize it was all
about style and profits, and not at all about injury prevention.

Do you wear motorcycle helmets on a bicycle? Nobody I've heard of denies
motorcycle helmets prevent some injuries in a crash. The debate is if
wearing of them causes more crashes due to limited scan, hearing, etc.
OTOH, there seems to be some inferential evidence that wearing helmets
on a bicycle can create injury.


The only evidence along those lines that I've seen discussed here is
statistical data showing that in some areas greatly increased helmet
use was accompanied by an increased risk of injury per rider. Whether
that was due to greater risk taking (risk compensation), fewer riders
leading to less awareness by motorists, injuries due to the increased
size and weight of the helmet, or other factors not considered in the
studies has never been analyzed. Nor do I think there is sufficient
data to do such an analysis.

That's something I've never heard
claimed for motorcycle helmets.


Then you haven't seen many pro and con arguments on motorcycle helmets.
The debate on the impact of helmets on neck injuries has gone on for
a long time

  #7  
Old August 30th 04, 12:45 AM
Peter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Paul Cassel wrote:
Mitch Haley wrote:


I grew up believing in God and motorcycle helmets. It wasn't a far
jump from there to believing in bicycle helmet advertising. In the
late 1980's I saw the rapid changeover from helmets to foam hats and
began to think that style was more important than protection. It didn't
matter that much to me, I still had a stockpile of helmets that would
last me a while. It was here that I first began to realize it was all
about style and profits, and not at all about injury prevention.

Do you wear motorcycle helmets on a bicycle? Nobody I've heard of denies
motorcycle helmets prevent some injuries in a crash. The debate is if
wearing of them causes more crashes due to limited scan, hearing, etc.
OTOH, there seems to be some inferential evidence that wearing helmets
on a bicycle can create injury.


The only evidence along those lines that I've seen discussed here is
statistical data showing that in some areas greatly increased helmet
use was accompanied by an increased risk of injury per rider. Whether
that was due to greater risk taking (risk compensation), fewer riders
leading to less awareness by motorists, injuries due to the increased
size and weight of the helmet, or other factors not considered in the
studies has never been analyzed. Nor do I think there is sufficient
data to do such an analysis.

That's something I've never heard
claimed for motorcycle helmets.


Then you haven't seen many pro and con arguments on motorcycle helmets.
The debate on the impact of helmets on neck injuries has gone on for
a long time

  #8  
Old August 30th 04, 02:04 AM
Mitch Haley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Paul Cassel wrote:

Do you wear motorcycle helmets on a bicycle?


No, just hard hats with EPS padding.
Bell Tourlight, V-1 Pro, Stratus(what was I thiking
when I bought that Darth Vader hat?) and I also
have a genuine Foam Hat, a 1990 Specialized Sub-6.
Can't remember when I last wore one of them.

I wore full-face fiberglass when I rode M/C.
Put one on pavement and one onto the side of
a stop sign running pickup, never felt the head
contact either time. I had time to pull my head
back when I hit the truck, I was quite proud of
myself for preventing head contact until I got
home and found brown paint on my orange helmet.
Mitch.
  #9  
Old August 30th 04, 02:04 AM
Mitch Haley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Paul Cassel wrote:

Do you wear motorcycle helmets on a bicycle?


No, just hard hats with EPS padding.
Bell Tourlight, V-1 Pro, Stratus(what was I thiking
when I bought that Darth Vader hat?) and I also
have a genuine Foam Hat, a 1990 Specialized Sub-6.
Can't remember when I last wore one of them.

I wore full-face fiberglass when I rode M/C.
Put one on pavement and one onto the side of
a stop sign running pickup, never felt the head
contact either time. I had time to pull my head
back when I hit the truck, I was quite proud of
myself for preventing head contact until I got
home and found brown paint on my orange helmet.
Mitch.
  #10  
Old August 30th 04, 02:24 AM
Blair P. Houghton
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Posts: n/a
Default

- wrote:
Have fun debating this proposition.


No.

--Blair
"You're the troll."
 




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