Knee problems, advice anyone

Not looking for a medical diagnosis but would like to hear from someone who
has suffered similar knee problems. Have been to a specialist who diagnosed
arithis. But i feel that there is probably alot one can still do to avoid
resulting pain (though he said its just wear and tear and there is nothing I
can do about it). To be honest i'm not sure I believe the arithis is the
complete cause of my problem nor do i have alot of faith in the specialist
(a national health system specialist, free in the UK) I saw.

Last year I started having problems going up/down stairs where I would
experience knee pain right behind and immediately around the kneecap when i
put pressure/weight on my left leg. Cycling and jogging which i continue to
do did not seem to aggravate the condition at the time. This has now
improved probably due to the fact I have been doing some knee exercises.

Unfortunately I have started having similar problems again with my left knee
but this time am experiencing alot of pain at the left and right sides of my
knee cap. Slightly different than before when it seemed more immediate to
the kneecap. I notice that its very painful on the start of a cycle run or
restarting having rested for a bit. If i put pressure on the muscles at
either side it feels quite tender. The weird thing is that the next day its
fine when i'm walking around. Running does not yet seem to have had the same
effect. I should add I ride a mixture of BikeE, HPV Spirit and Streetmachine
recumbents and have been doing so on and off for about 3 years now.

Any help would be appreciated
Gus

Last year I started having problems going up/down stairs where I would
experience knee pain right behind and immediately around the kneecap when
i
put pressure/weight on my left leg.
Any help would be appreciated
Gus

Gus, my Orthopedist said that kneecap-area pain was due to the kneecap
moving around when it shouldn't. He gave me a ChoPat strap to wear and that
pretty much cut the pain down. He said the kneecap is not tracking
correctly in the groove. Sometimes I even wear the strap while cycling, but
I can really tell the effects going down stairs. You might try this--I
think these straps can be had for about $15 USD.

Pat in TX

In article , says...
Not looking for a medical diagnosis but would like to hear from someone who
has suffered similar knee problems. Have been to a specialist who diagnosed
arithis. But i feel that there is probably alot one can still do to avoid
resulting pain (though he said its just wear and tear and there is nothing I
can do about it). To be honest i'm not sure I believe the arithis is the
complete cause of my problem nor do i have alot of faith in the specialist
(a national health system specialist, free in the UK) I saw.


My diagnosis is 'Knee Mice'. If you place a stethoscope on the knee and move the knee joint, you
can hear them going 'Squeek, Squeek. Squeek, Squeek.'

I disagree that there is is nothing that can be done about it though. Glucosamine HCL &
Chondroitin Sulfate tablets are effective in many that have problems similar to your description.

Several research studies have shown these to be beneficial in Arthritis patients runners and 'bent
cyclists.

J Fam Pract. 2003 Dec;52(12):919-20.

Structural and symptomatic efficacy of glucosamine and chondroitin in knee osteoarthritis: a
comprehensive meta-analysis.



Last year I started having problems going up/down stairs where I would
experience knee pain right behind and immediately around the kneecap when i
put pressure/weight on my left leg. Cycling and jogging which i continue to
do did not seem to aggravate the condition at the time. This has now
improved probably due to the fact I have been doing some knee exercises.

Unfortunately I have started having similar problems again with my left knee
but this time am experiencing alot of pain at the left and right sides of my
knee cap. Slightly different than before when it seemed more immediate to
the kneecap. I notice that its very painful on the start of a cycle run or
restarting having rested for a bit. If i put pressure on the muscles at
either side it feels quite tender. The weird thing is that the next day its
fine when i'm walking around. Running does not yet seem to have had the same
effect. I should add I ride a mixture of BikeE, HPV Spirit and Streetmachine
recumbents and have been doing so on and off for about 3 years now.

Any help would be appreciated
Gus




--

Cletus D. Lee
Bacchetta Giro
Lightning Voyager
http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Pain under the knee cap on a recumbent can indicate the seat adjustment is too
short.
How is your ergonomics when pedaling? Are you pushing straight down? Is your
knee no wider then your hips during the pedal circle? Any pre or post
stretching?
My 2 cents
Speedy


Gus wrote:

Not looking for a medical diagnosis but would like to hear from someone who
has suffered similar knee problems. Have been to a specialist who diagnosed
arithis. But i feel that there is probably alot one can still do to avoid
resulting pain (though he said its just wear and tear and there is nothing I
can do about it). To be honest i'm not sure I believe the arithis is the
complete cause of my problem nor do i have alot of faith in the specialist
(a national health system specialist, free in the UK) I saw.

Last year I started having problems going up/down stairs where I would
experience knee pain right behind and immediately around the kneecap when i
put pressure/weight on my left leg. Cycling and jogging which i continue to
do did not seem to aggravate the condition at the time. This has now
improved probably due to the fact I have been doing some knee exercises.

Unfortunately I have started having similar problems again with my left knee
but this time am experiencing alot of pain at the left and right sides of my
knee cap. Slightly different than before when it seemed more immediate to
the kneecap. I notice that its very painful on the start of a cycle run or
restarting having rested for a bit. If i put pressure on the muscles at
either side it feels quite tender. The weird thing is that the next day its
fine when i'm walking around. Running does not yet seem to have had the same
effect. I should add I ride a mixture of BikeE, HPV Spirit and Streetmachine
recumbents and have been doing so on and off for about 3 years now.

Any help would be appreciated
Gus



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Not looking for a medical diagnosis but would like to hear from someone who
has suffered similar knee problems.

Have you tried anti-inflamatories around the clock for a while to see
if it is some inflamation or tendonitis that can be cleared up that
way?

I notice that its very painful on the start of a cycle run or
restarting having rested for a bit.

I wonder if you need to spend some time re-evaluating your riding
position, shoe position, pedal distance, even crank length. If mine
are off just a bit I start to feel it, and hafta stop riding for a
while and use NSAIDs. I am 53 yo, but my knee has given me trouble
since I was 14. It was injured in a car accident.

I ride only about 2000 miles/year. How much do you ride?

I don't really wanna open up a big discussion on crank length again,
but I am 5' 8.5", and after I changed from 170mm to 155mm cranks, I
immediately had a significantly faster commute with more comfort. I
can't believe this wouldn't also be true of some other
vertically-challenged riders, or even folks with some knee problems.
I was just wondering... suppose it turns out you *do* have arthritis..
wonder if a change in crank length might put the stress somewhat in a
different and less sensitive spot in the knee? And apart from that,
if you do have arthritis, it seems intuitive that a shorter crank will
require the knee to be in a less acute angle when you apply pressure
to it, which may make a difference. I am thinking a knee at an acute
angle (as mine were) requires more pressure on the knee tissues to
generate the same amount of torque on the pedals, compared to a
right-angle at the knee, in the top-most position. I have heard
numerous times of people going to shorter cranks because of knee
problems (but this doesn't mean it turned out to be the right thing to
do).

Caveat: It seems that this problem can be illustrated by two
intersecting arcs when you consider the shorter crank's effect on
torque, and I haven't done the math.

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:03:43 +0000
(UTC), Gus wrote:

Not looking for a medical diagnosis but would like to hear from
someone who has suffered similar knee problems. Have been to a
specialist who diagnosed arithis. But i feel that there is probably
alot one can still do to avoid resulting pain (though he said its
just wear and tear and there is nothing I can do about it). To be
honest i'm not sure I believe the arithis is the complete cause of
my problem nor do i have alot of faith in the specialist (a national
health system specialist, free in the UK) I saw.

What was the specialist?

I've had knee problems off-and-on since the growth spurt you get in
early teens. The first round of problems was the worst - my knees got
to the point of sometimes just collapsing beneath me, even (on
occasion) when I was standing still (mighty embarrasing when you're
standing in a shop and just drop to a heap on teh floor, especially
when you're at the teenage "please don't anyone look at me under any
circumstances" stage).

The root cause for me is twisted bones in teh lower leg so teh joint
doesn't work quite as it does for everyone else. If I'm lucky and do
everything perfectly (perfect seat setup, crank length, the right
gear every time, no funny twisting and so on) I can go years with no
problems, then something sets it off and it snowballs and I need some
assistance to get it back to pain-free.

In my opinion, avoid (or get past as quick as possible) doctors - they
do things like send you for x-rays, then you get a message that teh
x-rays were fine, and then they seem to think that's it - x-ray is
fine, so problem is solved. The fact that I'm still in pain and it's
getting worse doesn't seem to occur to them. That or they put you on
anti-inflammatories, and I can't face taking pills 3 times a day for
the rest of my life.

Get to a physiotherapist (preferably, get your GP to refer you and
then it should be NHS and thus free) and find out what will help (even
if it won't cure). Every time I've had problems, a physio has come up
with an exercise routine that's overcome the pain and got me back to
shape. It might not be so good with arthritis, but I'd let them have
a crack at it, if you haven't tried already.

If you can get a referral to a sports physio, so much teh better (even
if it's not a sports injury) - they're more likely to have the needs
of active people in mind. A general physio probably spends 70% of
their time with frail old ladies, and while they've always done a good
job on me, a sports physio may well be better if you can arrange it.

One thing I've noticed is that my knees basically are just marginal as
to whether they work right, and there seem to be all sorts of
imbalances that can occur. One time I get an exercise to build up a
particular muscle, another time I say "I've been doing blaah exercise,
which is what I was given last time (2 years ago)", and they twist or
lean on or manipulate something and say "does that hurt", I say "no",
they say "well blaah exercise builds up thingy muscle, to overcome
such-and-such, but if you had that then when I do this it would hurt a
lot, and since it doesn't, it's not that this time" and give me
something totally different to do. The one time a GP gave me an
exercise to do, I got to teh physio a few weeks later, they gave me a
load of things, none of which was what the GP had given me, so I
questioned them, and teh physio assured me teh GPs exercise would make
things worse (it certainly hadn't helped). The point of all this
waffle is to say - get an actual physio to look at it, and don't rely
on people saying "I had a pain like that, I did this exercise" - I've
had pains that seemed teh same to me, but which responded to different
exercises.

Sometimes an exercise works wonders - I've had pain that's been
nagging continually for 6 or more months before I get round to
following my own advice clear up inside two weeks of doing what the
physio told me (that was a 'hyper mobile' kneecap, apparently).
Sometimes it's a long slog through 10 repetitions 3 times a day for
months before a big improvement occurs.

Good luck.

regards, Ian SMith
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"Gus" wrote in message ...
Not looking for a medical diagnosis but would like to hear from someone who
has suffered similar knee problems. Have been to a specialist who diagnosed
arithis. But i feel that there is probably alot one can still do to avoid
resulting pain (though he said its just wear and tear and there is nothing I
can do about it). To be honest i'm not sure I believe the arithis is the
complete cause of my problem nor do i have alot of faith in the specialist
(a national health system specialist, free in the UK) I saw.


I too have arthritis. My doctor told me to keep riding, use Tylenol
Arthritis and take Glucosamine Sulfate (See Cletus above). A pamphlet
that I got from the Arthritis Foundation echoed these recommendations.
The Glucosamine sometimes upsets my stomach, so I reduced the dose to
500 mg. 1500 mg is recommended. It still seems to help. It is a
lubricant for the joint and I figured that even a reduced amount would
help.

http://www.arthritis.org/

I have shorter cranks as someone mentioned, I also have the shorter
legs to go with them. I am not sure that it is necessary for
everyone. Good Luck

I did 2500 miles of riding last year and am trying to do a bit more
this year. I just baby my knees when they demand it and work them
when I can.

Gary McCarty, Greenspeed GTO, Salt Lake City

wrote:
Gus wrote:
Not looking for a medical diagnosis but would like to hear from
someone who has suffered similar knee problems. Have been to a
specialist who diagnosed arithis.


I have shattered cartilidge in the knees, and pain was slowing me down
a real worry a couple years ago at only 42... all pain seems to be gon
after a couple years of glucosamine sulfate. My understanding is that i
actually helps worn cartiledge to re-grow

I wish I could point you to "The Natural Phamacist" tnp.com, which use
to be free. It's a science-based online database of testing done o
herbs, vitamins and "nutri-ceuticals" such as glucosamine. That websit
went commercial, although apparently thier info is available free o
other sites..

In any case, I think the glucosamine helped me, it certainly can't hurt

The other thing that helped pull me back from a time of general healt
weakness was fasting with fresh vegetable juice for 3-4 days
Apparently, there is some scientific evidence that fasting has
positive affect on arthritis

Finally, using fresh flax oil (yummy in dressings) and getting a goo
balance of quality oils is something else I do that can't hurt
Anecdotally, I noticed that my fingernails got way stronger when
started eating flax... if that is the cause, then the stuff must be goo
for something

Best of luck, don't stop riding

Moosebear


-

I've had knee problems for the last twenty years. The only thing that I've
consistently found helpful is

- stretching
- strengthening the medial quadriceps - this should help patella tracking -
it often is relatively weaker

Cheers,
Barry


"Gus" wrote in message
...
Not looking for a medical diagnosis but would like to hear from someone
who
has suffered similar knee problems. Have been to a specialist who
diagnosed
arithis. But i feel that there is probably alot one can still do to avoid
resulting pain (though he said its just wear and tear and there is nothing
I
can do about it). To be honest i'm not sure I believe the arithis is the
complete cause of my problem nor do i have alot of faith in the specialist
(a national health system specialist, free in the UK) I saw.

Last year I started having problems going up/down stairs where I would
experience knee pain right behind and immediately around the kneecap when
i
put pressure/weight on my left leg. Cycling and jogging which i continue
to
do did not seem to aggravate the condition at the time. This has now
improved probably due to the fact I have been doing some knee exercises.

Unfortunately I have started having similar problems again with my left
knee
but this time am experiencing alot of pain at the left and right sides of
my
knee cap. Slightly different than before when it seemed more immediate to
the kneecap. I notice that its very painful on the start of a cycle run or
restarting having rested for a bit. If i put pressure on the muscles at
either side it feels quite tender. The weird thing is that the next day
its
fine when i'm walking around. Running does not yet seem to have had the
same
effect. I should add I ride a mixture of BikeE, HPV Spirit and
Streetmachine
recumbents and have been doing so on and off for about 3 years now.

Any help would be appreciated
Gus

It's common for pedalers to bend their knees inward on the power
stroke, especially when going fast or climbing hills. This puts more
pressure on the outside of the knee cartilage and can eventually wear it
down. The cartilage on the underside of the kneecap suffers most.
Watch your knee action when cranking hard and try to keep your knees
moving in a straight line with the pedals.

Cartilage has no blood vessels and gets its oxygen and nutrients
from the fluid in the joints. Everytime you put pressure on a joint,
the fluid is forced into the pores of the cartilage, then comes back
out, between strokes. The more you exercise your joints, without
damaging them, the healthier they'll be. This is why sore joints feel
better after a warm up, because the fluid has entered the cartilage and
made it thicker and more pliable. If you lie around, inactive, because
of soreness, your cartilage becomes progressively starved for nutrients
and degrades further.

A longterm benefit can be gained by taking glucosamine and MSM
supplements. These naturally-occurring substances are vital to
cartilage maintenance, but as people become older, not enough
glucosamine is produced in the body. MSM is an organic compound of
sulfur, that is not in enough abundance in farm-raised crops. It is
found in rainwater and in fruits and vegetables that are watered by it,
but most irrigated crops are deficient in it. Our ancient ancestors ate
nothing but foods watered directly by the rain. These supplements have
helped my knees a great deal and also those of several previously
decrepid friends. Glucosamine is extracted commercially from shrimp
shells, so people with shellfish allergies may need to avoid it. I
don't know if any other source of it is available, for those with such
allergies.

Steve McDonald