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Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance



 
 
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  #111  
Old April 14th 15, 10:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 8:39:20 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 9:12:10 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 8:14:44 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 14/04/15 03:59, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:57:08 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
SNIP
I agree that if you don't mind the weight and the absence of STI shifters, some oddities in terms of shifting (backing off to get a gear), 14 gears instead of 18/20/22, wider steps, adding oil and cost, increased friction (not making that up; it's been measured), then it's a great system. You can shift when stopped. I assume it doesn't miss gears and sticking cables don't have the same effect (e.g. ghost shifting, etc.) It lasts forever and hoses off easier.
It probably makes a superior MTB mud bike/heavy tourer.


I think it would be good for a commuter as well, especially in hilly
terrain. Hiding the complexity of gears inside the hub makes a nice
neat solution, and likely more robust. It's not difficult to bend a
derailleur hanger even if a bike just falls over - like in a bike rack
at work. The rear derailleur isn't going to get damaged if you want to
remove the wheels and stuff the bike in the back of a car. You'll never
have the chain overshoot the biggest sprocket and jam in between the
sprocket and spokes, and you'll never get the rear derailleur caught on
a spoke (after the hanger got bent or whatever) and rip it off and take
a few spokes with it.

Yes, there are real advantages, but the price puts me off mostly, and
the extra weight a little as well - though I'd put up with that if the
price came down.

--
JS


Now that between my bike and the gym I put in I'm relatively fit again, I use my Rohloff (which was absolutely essential to get me up the hill to the house when I bought it) for recreational rides in very hilly country. But, the truth is, if you're young and fit, what Joe Riel implied is right: the 8 gears and 300 percent (and small change) of range of the Shimano 8 speed is enough. But, in my experience, you'll buy two Shimano hub gearboxes before your Rohloff is run in. A Rohloff makes the sense Jay was looking for if you're a high-miler. Otherwise it is probably an engineering indulgence. But, what the hell, you only live once, you can't take it with you, and an hour of my time is anyway worth more than the most expensive Rohloff setup.

But I can easily see that an upmarket roadie who lives in wet or otherwise adverse conditions, whose practice time is very valuable, could find it worthwhile to have a Rohloff-equipped winter practice bike. That's beyond a luxury; I could easily make a case for it as a necessity to what the insensitive Scharfie calls the "spousal unit" (you don't have to be an engineer to be insensitive, but it surely helps!).


Wearing out cassettes gives me a chance to go shopping. Why would I give that up? If you buy all this stuff that can't be modified and never wears out, where are you then? Bo-ring.


That's when inventiveness starts. Check the first post of this thread and follow the links. I'm conducting a whole series of experiments to make an Almost Zero Service Bicycle. The Zero Maintenance Chain experiment in the first post is already at four and a half times the distance Sheldon thought viable. That's a huge technical advance.

Or any time you're bored, you can just drop the word "Rohloff" on some stick-in-the-mud roadie conference like RBT, and spend the next three weeks fending off the morons who think any component not available by dumpster diving is the Devil's Own. I didn't even have to say "Rohloff", I just had to start talking about hub gearboxes and what they make possible, for the clowns to start slinging mud. Endless amusement in putting down the congenital candidates for eugenic dispatch like Daniels.

I would like to test ride a Co-motion or other high-end bike with a Rohloff hub just to see what I think of it -- and to give my more ammunition to deride people who own them. Or I might buy one and engage in self-loathing.. Who knows.


"Self-loathing" is the point: the resistance to a clearly better transmission is luddite group think, substituting street corner gossip for facts, peer pressure that soon descends to bullying.

I'd be happy to arrange an introduction to my chum in Eugene, if you wish. Drop me a note at andrejute at coolmainpress with the commercial extension. He's from a road background, so he's probably a better guy to talk to than me, because my interest is getting up the hills hereabouts, and within credit card tour range of no more than three easy days' ride; I've never commuted, except by plane.

Speaking of test riding, I was down in Santa Rosa last week and rented a bike to go on a ride out to the coast. Crap, man, $75 plus CA tax to rent a low-end Roubaix.


They rent that bike four times and they've recovered the wholesale cost! Perhaps rental is so expensive because they suffer a lot of thefts or newbies damaging their bikes.

That's twice what it cost me to rent a car for the day. It was actually a nice bike except for the stupid seat-post with the slipping seat carriage (even with lots of torque). Next time, I'm taking my own saddle/seat post. I'll have to convince TSA that its not a weapon. I was once detained because they were suspicious of the spoke wrench on my key chain.


Heh-heh. The only qualification you need to be hired by the TSA is a desire to put your hands up under women's dresses, or men's for that matter. (Sic).

Andre Jute
Ads
  #112  
Old April 15th 15, 12:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On 4/14/2015 3:12 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
John B. Slocomb considered Tue, 14 Apr 2015


It is probably a bit radical but one could design a 10 or 11 speed
chain wheel setup. Say 11 speeds on the front and 14 on the back.

Bragging Rights!


For real bragging rights you really need an intermediate gearshaft
between the bottom bracket and the rear hub, especially if that
intermediate drive had an SRAM Dual drive 3x9 on it.

With a single chain using entirely off-the shelf parts, it would be
hard to beat an SRAM Dual Drive 3x9 with triple front chainrings (81
gears, although clearly many duplicates).

Adding the intermediate Dual drive shaft to that would give 1458 gears
(including duplicates), but finding them all with 5 changers might be
challenging!


Back in the 1980s, I met a guy with a recumbent set up with hundreds of
gears. I forget the details now, but IIRC an intermediate shaft was
part of the scheme.

Both the bike and the rider had a scrappy post-apocalyptic vibe, as if
everything had been hammer-welded together out of salvaged oil drums. A
very odd character, combat boots and two helmet-mounted mirrors...

And BTW, I think Tom Sherman might have known him. Tom? Am I right?


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #113  
Old April 15th 15, 12:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On 4/14/2015 3:39 PM, jbeattie wrote:

Speaking of test riding, I was down in Santa Rosa last week and rented a bike to go on a ride out to the coast. Crap, man, $75 plus CA tax to rent a low-end Roubaix. That's twice what it cost me to rent a car for the day. It was actually a nice bike except for the stupid seat-post with the slipping seat carriage (even with lots of torque). Next time, I'm taking my own saddle/seat post. I'll have to convince TSA that its not a weapon. I was once detained because they were suspicious of the spoke wrench on my key chain.


That's (partly) why we bought folding bikes.

Of course, folders have their downsides. No matter the claims, you know
you're not riding a top-end road bike.

But I'm not much of a connoisseur, and I like having my bike set up to
match my own quirks and preferences.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #114  
Old April 15th 15, 02:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 606
Default Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:12:40 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

John B. Slocomb considered Tue, 14 Apr 2015
08:31:42 +0700 the perfect time to write:

On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 10:43:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/12/2015 11:48 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 10:25:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/12/2015 4:22 AM, James wrote:
On 12/04/15 16:26, Ralph Barone wrote:


Could you squeeze a 2 gear cluster onto a Rohloff hub? A 17-16 with a
derailleur would split the Rohloff ratios quite nicely (admittedly, by
throwing away the one main advantage of the hub).


You can get SA IGH that takes a cassette. You can then effectively do
away with the triple chainring and front derailleur.

That's a popular setup with Bike Friday folding bikes. See "What is the
SRAM 3x9 Dual Drive? " at https://www.bikefriday.com/bicycles/faqs/

(However, our Fridays have more conventional gears: front triple
cranks, 9 speed rear derailleurs.)

Or use a two or three chain rings and shift the front, which would be
a relatively easy modification.

A 50-16, for example, gives a 84.38 gear inches while a 49-16 ration
is 82.69 which is less then a shift from a 16 to 17 tooth cassette cog
which is from 84.38 to 79.41.


That's probably the easiest way to split the ratios on a Rohloff, but rear
derailleurs shift better than the front ones, so I was just exploring the
idea space.

I've still got half-step gearing on three old bikes. That means the
freewheels are wide spaced, and the two big chainrings are very close in
tooth count - for example, 52 & 47 teeth.

When chainring tooth counts are that close, shifting between them is
very easy. It's nowhere near as difficult as, say, shifting 42 to 52.

Not that I'm advocating half-step gearing, BTW. Modern setups do shift
easier.


While I've never tried it I think that it is likely that if the front
sprockets varied by only one or two teeth, as the cassette usually
does that shifting would be very similar to the rear.

It is probably a bit radical but one could design a 10 or 11 speed
chain wheel setup. Say 11 speeds on the front and 14 on the back.

Bragging Rights!


For real bragging rights you really need an intermediate gearshaft
between the bottom bracket and the rear hub, especially if that
intermediate drive had an SRAM Dual drive 3x9 on it.

With a single chain using entirely off-the shelf parts, it would be
hard to beat an SRAM Dual Drive 3x9 with triple front chainrings (81
gears, although clearly many duplicates).

Adding the intermediate Dual drive shaft to that would give 1458 gears
(including duplicates), but finding them all with 5 changers might be
challenging!


Not really, given that electric gear changers are becoming more and
more common. A single chip added to the changer could turn 1,458
options into just click - click - click :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.
  #115  
Old April 15th 15, 05:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
T0m $herman
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Posts: 612
Default Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On 4/14/2015 2:12 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
With a single chain using entirely off-the shelf parts, it would be
hard to beat an SRAM Dual Drive 3x9 with triple front chainrings (81
gears, although clearly many duplicates).


I had a bike with 52/42/30 chainrings and a 7-speed 11-28 cassette on a
3x7 hub - about 20 distinct ratios out of the 63 combinations. Not
worth it for filling in gaps, but the the unique extra six ratios (3
each top and bottom of the range) were well worth it, since it was a
heavy but aerodynamic faired 'bent. On an upright where the wide range
is not needed, I would not bother.

--
T0m $herm@n
  #116  
Old April 15th 15, 05:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
T0m $herman
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Posts: 612
Default Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On 4/14/2015 6:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Back in the 1980s, I met a guy with a recumbent set up with hundreds of
gears. I forget the details now, but IIRC an intermediate shaft was
part of the scheme.

Both the bike and the rider had a scrappy post-apocalyptic vibe, as if
everything had been hammer-welded together out of salvaged oil drums. A
very odd character, combat boots and two helmet-mounted mirrors...

And BTW, I think Tom Sherman might have known him. Tom? Am I right?


If you are thinking of this guy, I know of him but do not know him
personally: http://www.outsideconnection.com/gallant/hpv/joe/

--
T0m $herm@n
  #117  
Old April 15th 15, 03:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On 4/15/2015 12:25 AM, T0m $herman wrote:
On 4/14/2015 6:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Back in the 1980s, I met a guy with a recumbent set up with hundreds of
gears. I forget the details now, but IIRC an intermediate shaft was
part of the scheme.

Both the bike and the rider had a scrappy post-apocalyptic vibe, as if
everything had been hammer-welded together out of salvaged oil drums. A
very odd character, combat boots and two helmet-mounted mirrors...

And BTW, I think Tom Sherman might have known him. Tom? Am I right?


If you are thinking of this guy, I know of him but do not know him
personally: http://www.outsideconnection.com/gallant/hpv/joe/

Yes, I think that's him.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #118  
Old April 15th 15, 08:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 2:42:26 PM UTC-4, Phil W Lee wrote:
"T0m $herman" considered Tue, 14
Apr 2015 23:22:56 -0500 the perfect time to write:

On 4/14/2015 2:12 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
With a single chain using entirely off-the shelf parts, it would be
hard to beat an SRAM Dual Drive 3x9 with triple front chainrings (81
gears, although clearly many duplicates).


I had a bike with 52/42/30 chainrings and a 7-speed 11-28 cassette on a
3x7 hub - about 20 distinct ratios out of the 63 combinations. Not
worth it for filling in gaps, but the the unique extra six ratios (3
each top and bottom of the range) were well worth it, since it was a
heavy but aerodynamic faired 'bent. On an upright where the wide range
is not needed, I would not bother.


Well, I have a dualdrive 3x9 lying around, which I may get around to
building into a rear wheel for my Bacchetta if I can find a suitable
36 hole 559 rim.
The additional gear range just might make it possible for me to ride
again, if I can stay upright at a low enough speed.


Add an outrigger wheel to the rear? I've done that on my winter bike.

Cheers
  #119  
Old April 15th 15, 08:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On 4/15/2015 1:37 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
John B. Slocomb considered Wed, 15 Apr 2015
08:55:28 +0700 the perfect time to write:

On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:12:40 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

John B. Slocomb considered Tue, 14 Apr 2015
08:31:42 +0700 the perfect time to write:

On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 10:43:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/12/2015 11:48 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 10:25:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/12/2015 4:22 AM, James wrote:
On 12/04/15 16:26, Ralph Barone wrote:


Could you squeeze a 2 gear cluster onto a Rohloff hub? A 17-16 with a
derailleur would split the Rohloff ratios quite nicely (admittedly, by
throwing away the one main advantage of the hub).


You can get SA IGH that takes a cassette. You can then effectively do
away with the triple chainring and front derailleur.

That's a popular setup with Bike Friday folding bikes. See "What is the
SRAM 3x9 Dual Drive? " at https://www.bikefriday.com/bicycles/faqs/

(However, our Fridays have more conventional gears: front triple
cranks, 9 speed rear derailleurs.)

Or use a two or three chain rings and shift the front, which would be
a relatively easy modification.

A 50-16, for example, gives a 84.38 gear inches while a 49-16 ration
is 82.69 which is less then a shift from a 16 to 17 tooth cassette cog
which is from 84.38 to 79.41.


That's probably the easiest way to split the ratios on a Rohloff, but rear
derailleurs shift better than the front ones, so I was just exploring the
idea space.

I've still got half-step gearing on three old bikes. That means the
freewheels are wide spaced, and the two big chainrings are very close in
tooth count - for example, 52 & 47 teeth.

When chainring tooth counts are that close, shifting between them is
very easy. It's nowhere near as difficult as, say, shifting 42 to 52.

Not that I'm advocating half-step gearing, BTW. Modern setups do shift
easier.

While I've never tried it I think that it is likely that if the front
sprockets varied by only one or two teeth, as the cassette usually
does that shifting would be very similar to the rear.

It is probably a bit radical but one could design a 10 or 11 speed
chain wheel setup. Say 11 speeds on the front and 14 on the back.

Bragging Rights!

For real bragging rights you really need an intermediate gearshaft
between the bottom bracket and the rear hub, especially if that
intermediate drive had an SRAM Dual drive 3x9 on it.

With a single chain using entirely off-the shelf parts, it would be
hard to beat an SRAM Dual Drive 3x9 with triple front chainrings (81
gears, although clearly many duplicates).

Adding the intermediate Dual drive shaft to that would give 1458 gears
(including duplicates), but finding them all with 5 changers might be
challenging!


Not really, given that electric gear changers are becoming more and
more common. A single chip added to the changer could turn 1,458
options into just click - click - click :-)


In theory, yes - a bit more like F1 gearboxes though, as you need to
be able to get direct access to "favourite" gears instead of having to
go through all of them sequentially - so extra buttons needed.
And of course, it would all need setting up with the sprocket sizes in
use at the time, so that duplicates could be skipped.
Nothing that couldn't be programmed into a fairly simple chip,
although you'd need to select carefully to get enough interrupts for
the control buttons.
Apparently a modern F1 steering wheel has more processing power than
was used - in total - for the lunar landings.


My girlfriend has a coffee machine with more power than the
Apollo systems.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #120  
Old April 16th 15, 12:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,374
Default Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

1 April, 1971

EYAH I had one a few minutes ago.

Unknown bedroom community escape turnpike caught in a turn only lane

I waited a moment for a break on the left....go on and zapped left

letting off as the lead left front of the break cut in front of me no signal exiting onto the ramp I was avoiding. Just shoot across my vision.

Oklahoma has extremely tight off ramps int the on off swap over a turn[ike cross bridge....JC talk about nutty bike lanes

I had one yesterday UPS 18W coming up NOW but slower off course so I too headed UPS off into the swap lane

finding a 15-20mph right RICHT AT THE END OF THE SWAP LANE and what for a runoff ? a freakin grass cliff abt 15' hi.....

like locally metallic pads fersure...

BTW MSNBSN (ditched) would run 10 BEST SEWERS TO LIVE IN series often mentioning NORMAN OK which is really pleasant n green leaved today with a beeeutiful blue sky...nice...driving thru I think of MSNBSN and agree...driving thru.

I am at primo lake park outside Edmonds also primo for $8

We found our earthquake affected grackle friends first stop at first Walmart at Norman. Musical and one trial learners.....have a different dialect than the coaster grackles....one sound a first year male made after eating some bagel was a machine gun rattle while the other do a slide whistle routine with sharp short notes following or preceding.

I should develop a comment on Murrah that wudbe found t sci.geo.earthquakes....later


 




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