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rear-facing dropouts



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 24th 18, 11:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
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Posts: 1,035
Default rear-facing dropouts

Today there was a gorgeous open-frame steel
bike from the 60s or 70s, with the favorite
635 tires.

The only wrench in the machinery is that it has
rear-facing dropouts, and the o-bolts to grab
the rear wheel axle to tighten the chain were
missing. If it ever had any! Or were they
always there on such bikes?

I think such, now exotic spare parts can be
difficult to find... Can you get away
without them?

I read [1] that on track bikes, also with
rear-facing dropouts, they don't have them (the
o-bolts). But I suppose people set the tension
before every race! I also read that track bikes
do not have QRs, because "threaded nuts will
hold the chain tension far longer", and that
such bikes have a more robust, 1/8in chain.
I bring this up because it seems to contradict
what was said in another thread that QR is
stronger than nuts. Obviously, people don't
race track bikes as others do commuters!
Unless I'm missing something else (I never even
saw a track bike IRL).

BTW aren't all nuts "threaded"? Except those
who participate in reality TV shows...

[1] page 188 in
@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}

--
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http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
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  #2  
Old October 24th 18, 01:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 3,818
Default rear-facing dropouts

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 6:59:59 AM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Today there was a gorgeous open-frame steel
bike from the 60s or 70s, with the favorite
635 tires.

The only wrench in the machinery is that it has
rear-facing dropouts, and the o-bolts to grab
the rear wheel axle to tighten the chain were
missing. If it ever had any! Or were they
always there on such bikes?

I think such, now exotic spare parts can be
difficult to find... Can you get away
without them?

I read [1] that on track bikes, also with
rear-facing dropouts, they don't have them (the
o-bolts). But I suppose people set the tension
before every race! I also read that track bikes
do not have QRs, because "threaded nuts will
hold the chain tension far longer", and that
such bikes have a more robust, 1/8in chain.
I bring this up because it seems to contradict
what was said in another thread that QR is
stronger than nuts. Obviously, people don't
race track bikes as others do commuters!
Unless I'm missing something else (I never even
saw a track bike IRL).

BTW aren't all nuts "threaded"? Except those
who participate in reality TV shows...

[1] page 188 in
@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573


Rearward facing slots for holding the rear wheel in place are called TRACK ENDS not dropout.

No, the thread bolt with washer and nut to go on the threaded axle of a coaster brake or 3-speed bicycle aren't mandatory. they were mostly used to make it easier to replace the wheel in the same location it was in before removal for changing a tube or tire.

Track bicycles can have every bit as much strain on the drivetrain as any derailleur equipped bicycle. Since most rack bicycle racing is done on an indoor track there is not the same need for a quick release as there is on a road bicycle racing on the road where there is a lot more chance of getting a puncture and thus needing to QUICKLY change the wheel.

I don't know if it's still going on but in recent years there was quite the movement of bicyclists using fixed gear or track bicycles for commuting due to the simplicity of such bicycles i.e. no derailleurs or shifters ,or (in a lot of cases) brake levers and brake calipers.

Cheers
  #3  
Old October 24th 18, 02:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 9,855
Default rear-facing dropouts

On 10/24/2018 5:59 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Today there was a gorgeous open-frame steel
bike from the 60s or 70s, with the favorite
635 tires.

The only wrench in the machinery is that it has
rear-facing dropouts, and the o-bolts to grab
the rear wheel axle to tighten the chain were
missing. If it ever had any! Or were they
always there on such bikes?

I think such, now exotic spare parts can be
difficult to find... Can you get away
without them?

I read [1] that on track bikes, also with
rear-facing dropouts, they don't have them (the
o-bolts). But I suppose people set the tension
before every race! I also read that track bikes
do not have QRs, because "threaded nuts will
hold the chain tension far longer", and that
such bikes have a more robust, 1/8in chain.
I bring this up because it seems to contradict
what was said in another thread that QR is
stronger than nuts. Obviously, people don't
race track bikes as others do commuters!
Unless I'm missing something else (I never even
saw a track bike IRL).

BTW aren't all nuts "threaded"? Except those
who participate in reality TV shows...

[1] page 188 in
@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}


Chain tensioners are handy on roadsters to get the wheel
centered what with full mudguards, chain case, stirrup brake
and so on before tightening the axle nuts. They are not
necessary by any means and in fact the #1 problem with them
is riders setting chain tension too high which causes
excessive chain and bearing wear.

A QR holds as tight or tighter than axle nuts but either are
adequate especially on single speed where the gearing is not
as low as touring setups. Racing rules for track prohibit
QR. That and tradition are why real track bikes use solid
axles. (My own fixie is QR, never posed any problem whatsoever))

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #4  
Old October 24th 18, 02:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 8,826
Default rear-facing dropouts

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 1:13:48 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Rearward facing slots for holding the rear wheel in place are called TRACK ENDS not dropout.


Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather than dropouts?

Andre Jute
The greatest icon ever is -- ?
  #5  
Old October 24th 18, 03:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
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Posts: 1,035
Default rear-facing dropouts

AMuzi wrote:

Chain tensioners are handy on roadsters to
get the wheel centered what with full
mudguards, chain case, stirrup brake and so
on before tightening the axle nuts. They are
not necessary by any means


Great, that's what I thought!

and in fact the #1 problem with them is
riders setting chain tension too high which
causes excessive chain and bearing wear.


And bearing wear BEFORE chain wear, so one
cannot ride it until chain wear makes it right,
even if one is that destructive/lazy!
Many people put there chains too tight on
dropout bikes. But it happens easily enough!
OTOH as many people ride their bikes until the
chain is so loose it starts to hang and rattle
with everything else, and they still don't
bother (or know/care) as long as the bike
rides. I don't know. I'd like to know at least
something about everything that goes on around
me. But I suppose it is a good sign that not
everyone only thinks about bikes, computers,
gear, and so on...

A QR holds as tight or tighter than axle nuts
but either are adequate especially on single
speed where the gearing is not as low as
touring setups. Racing rules for track
prohibit QR. That and tradition are why real
track bikes use solid axles. (My own fixie is
QR, never posed any problem whatsoever))


Great!

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #6  
Old October 24th 18, 03:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default rear-facing dropouts

Andre Jute wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of
hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these
days have track ends rather than dropouts?


Must be some modern thing because here at least
the Torpedo 2 (Duomatic), the
Torpedo 3 (Dreigang), as well as the
Torpedo 5 (Pentasport) are all used with
dropouts, and dome nuts, sometimes with holes
in them to allow for the gear chain

I don't see why they wouldn't work with tracks
tho or what influence that would have?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #7  
Old October 24th 18, 03:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default rear-facing dropouts

As for terminology, here is what it says:

Track bikes have rear-facing dropouts and
120mm-space hubs (rather than 130mm of
a road bike). Rear-facing dropouts offer
a stronger and simpler solution to
adjusting chain tension and accommodating
variations in sprocket (gear) sizes.

Page 188,

@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #8  
Old October 24th 18, 04:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,855
Default rear-facing dropouts

On 10/24/2018 9:37 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
As for terminology, here is what it says:

Track bikes have rear-facing dropouts and
120mm-space hubs (rather than 130mm of
a road bike). Rear-facing dropouts offer
a stronger and simpler solution to
adjusting chain tension and accommodating
variations in sprocket (gear) sizes.

Page 188,

@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}


Nonsense.

There's no functional difference for chain tension or
gearing between this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/mer11b.jpg
and this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/endaxis.jpg

Author probably meant to contrast single-point ends; either
composed badly or you snipped the relevant part.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #9  
Old October 24th 18, 05:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default rear-facing dropouts

AMuzi wrote:

Nonsense.

There's no functional difference for chain
tension or gearing between this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/mer11b.jpg
and this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/endaxis.jpg

Author probably meant to contrast
single-point ends; either composed badly or
you snipped the relevant part.


It is an exact quote of an entire paragraph.
The paragraph before that is about QR vs. nuts;
the paragraph after is about 1/8in chain vs
3/32in.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #10  
Old October 24th 18, 06:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
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Posts: 1,207
Default rear-facing dropouts

On 10/24/18 3:59 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 1:13:48 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Rearward facing slots for holding the rear wheel in place are
called TRACK ENDS not dropout.


Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub gearboxes, so many
Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather than dropouts?


Stops the rear wheel falling off.
 




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