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Making America into Amsterdam



 
 
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  #41  
Old June 29th 18, 02:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 840
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 6/27/2018 11:39 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 11:18:06 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

http://www.somafab.com/archives/prod...disc-frame-set

revised model for 2018


Very nice.

How much would a complete bicycle cost with that frame? I think that
many potential customers would not want to buy every component at full
retail price and build up a bicycle themselves, but would be okay with
paying $1000-1200 for a complete bike. Especially in Palo Alto.

Mechanical disc brakes
Triple Crankset, Sora or better
Front 36 spoke wheel with SP PD-8 dynamo
Rear 36 spoke wheel
Stem
Seat Post
Seat
Pedals
Handlebars
Chain


That recommend should come as no surprise. Every time you post about mixtes, I link to the Soma. Here in the civilized world, you an buy them complete, but not cheaply. https://www.joe-bike.com/product/som...50-cm-4362.htm


With sloping TT bikes with long headtubes and the proliferation of all sorts of city bikes, I really don't see the need for a mixte, but they are kind of retro cool.


Whoa! Old guy disorientation! I saw "sloping TT bikes" and I
immediately envisioned this:
https://www.bikehugger.com/images/bl...en%20Huffy.JPG

Then I saw "long headtubes" and got back on the same page with you. Heh.

Mark J.


-- Jay Beattie.



Ads
  #42  
Old June 29th 18, 02:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 4:51:22 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-28 07:12, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 4:56:33 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote:


[...]

You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf
YIMBY groups, that families with children generally
want to live in single family homes.


So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the
dance club, to numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad
station, almost everywhere.

How old were those European towns? When were they
founded?


Doesn't matter.

I think it does matter.


Why?


Because, as I already said:

I think there are different cultural or social expectations
in Europe, most of which are influenced by history. Europe
seems to generally have much more restrictive land use
policies, and those policies seem to promote "infill"
development.

Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured,
I was struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed
to be a boundary around most towns, with apartments, houses,
shops etc. on one side and little but fields and forests on
the other side. We saw almost no rural convenience stores or
gas stations, for example. People have been living close for
hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system.


Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to when
your relatives came from Europe. Probably not very wealthy, they
likely settled in an east coast town very similar to a European
one.

Sprawl set in a bit earlier in America but not by much. The few
years difference is because WW-II destroyed much of Europe but
nothing inside the US. Europe had sprawl already before America as
we know it existed and that can be witnessed in the UK, for
example.



It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe,
lived there for decades. An example in Austria:

http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg




Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country:

http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg




This is in the UK:

https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg




In each of your examples, I see what looks like dense development
surrounded by rural fields.


Get your glasses and look again :-)


... And Reussebene doesn't come up on Google Maps. Perhaps if you
gave the locations, we could look at the satellite views and
compare them with similar American towns.


Sorry, but ever since they botched the font sizes Google Maps has
become nearly useless to me. Can't read a thing. I have lived in
Europe for decades and live in the US for decades. There is not
much difference WRT sprawl with two exceptions:

1. The property sizes are a tad smaller in Europe but this is
compensated for by more people per square mile needing a home.

2. They have less or no zoning laws. Unfortunately we do, and
that's where the problem is.


Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize
new land, to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight
any attempt to limit what we can do with it.

So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_
they will buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some
farm road. The land is cheaper out there, and there are fewer
zoning rules. They'll put in twisty residential streets with
only one outlet onto that farm road. They won't bother with
sidewalks, because nobody will use them.

The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a
new, all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone
will eventually say "Hey, I can put a gas station and
convenience store at their corner and make a killing." So the
parking lot lights begin to wash away the night sky, and the
traffic increases.

Soon another realty company builds another mushroom
development nearby, which triggers a little shopping plaza,
and on it goes. It all happens at low density, because
everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow.


If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a
little strip mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city
hall will say "NOOO!" because it's all zoned residential.

I'm talking about "development" extending out into former farm
country, specifically because there is no zoning out there. These
are places where there is no city hall, because they are not in a
city.


There will be a community services district or similar structure
in place, prontissimo, and they will lord it over the people.
That's also how it is where I lived.


"Lord it over the people?" You mean that there is a governmental
structure adopted by the residents that is applicable to people who
move in with notice of that structure? My God, that is so
repressive!

Everything you needed to know about your community was available in
the CC&Rs and the CSD filings BEFORE YOU MOVED IN. Don't buy into a
synthetic town and then complain that it's a synthetic town.


Please follow the thread more closely. This was not about me or people
moving in later. It was about people starting a business out in the
boonies while it was still the boonies. Yes, they will lord it over them
once the density increases.


Yes, lord over them and drive up the land value. Larry Cameron made a bundle off a cow pasture. To create a CSD, you have to have buy-in from the existing residents -- so apparently, the one resident business -- a cow pasture -- was not complaining.


Examples are plentiful. Such as airports that date back almost to
Lindbergh yet when developments went in they wer closed down or are
under that threat for noise "pollution". Same with farms or food
producers that have been there almost since the gold rush and now they
get in trouble because some "urban cowboys" that should have stayed in
the city moved into the country and can't bear the stench.


Nothing could land at a Lindbergh era airport except maybe a Cesna 150. Yes, zoning can change, there are some odd-ball California cases where people brought nuisance claims against existing uses like a pig farm. Del Webb won a big one, but its an outlier. Much, but not all, zoning improves land values, and depending on the planning entity, it protects farm and forest. That is an land use goal in Oregon. Your little community is immune from change because of the CC&Rs, but I'm sure you'd enjoy it if a pig farm moved in next door. Go to a zero zoning jurisdiction and feel the love of pig farms next to skyscrapers next to toxic waste dumps, etc.


You could always go full Kaczynski and live in a 10 X 10 shack on
some forgotten BLM land in the Badlands and not live in an
airpark/golf course community with CC&Rs up the butt. I'm sure you
would enjoy that. Plenty of room for beer brewing.


They'd even threaten you out there if someone with a big bank account
decided to turn swaths of land around you into a "senior adventure
living community" or whatever.


And then your 10X10 shack is worth $1M. Worry about being condemned for a road or dam.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #43  
Old June 29th 18, 02:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 6/28/2018 9:10 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 6/27/2018 11:39 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 11:18:06 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

http://www.somafab.com/archives/prod...disc-frame-set

revised model for 2018

Very nice.

How much would a complete bicycle cost with that frame? I think that
many potential customers would not want to buy every component at full
retail price and build up a bicycle themselves, but would be okay with
paying $1000-1200 for a complete bike. Especially in Palo Alto.

Mechanical disc brakes
Triple Crankset, Sora or better
Front 36 spoke wheel with SP PD-8 dynamo
Rear 36 spoke wheel
Stem
Seat Post
Seat
Pedals
Handlebars
Chain


That recommend should come as no surprise.Â* Every time you post about
mixtes, I link to the Soma. Here in the civilized world, you an buy
them complete, but not cheaply.
https://www.joe-bike.com/product/som...50-cm-4362.htm


With sloping TT bikes with long headtubes and the proliferation of all
sorts of city bikes, I really don't see the need for a mixte, but they
are kind of retro cool.


Whoa!Â* Old guy disorientation!Â* I saw "sloping TT bikes" and I
immediately envisioned this:
https://www.bikehugger.com/images/bl...en%20Huffy.JPG


I mentioned Fred DeLong's 1973 book, his _Guide to Bicycles and
Bicycling_. That was the first time I saw mention of a bike with a
sloping top tube - a more or less conventional "men's frame" that is.

I remember it striking me as odd and somehow, not quite right. I think
my own mental quirk about it illustrates how easy it is for design to be
bound by tradition - or perhaps, influenced by fashion.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #44  
Old June 29th 18, 03:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-06-28 08:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 7:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe,
most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally
have
much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to
promote "infill" development.

Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was
struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a
boundary
around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and
little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no
rural
convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been
living
close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system.


Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to when
your relatives came from Europe. Probably not very wealthy, they
likely settled in an east coast town very similar to a European one.


Joerg, I'm talking about present day geography, not that of over 100
years ago.


So why did you ask about the age then? Makes no sense. I said it doesn't
matter and now you seem to say the same.

scratching head


You (even you) can look up the population density of the U.S. vs.
northern European countries. You can look up the population density of
metropolitan areas both here and there, or typical home sizes, etc.
There can be no question that the U.S. sprawls more in every way.


As is evident in the examples I brought from Ireland and you brought
from the US, sprawl is almost identical. Except in the US many people
have (had) larger lots. That definitely started to change about 20 years
ago where cookie cutter homes were plopped so densely that people could
almost see the tooth paste brand the neighbor is using, through the
window. For example, in many new developments in Folsom the space from
house to house is right at code minimum. See link further below.


There are some old U.S. cities where the city center itself is dense.
But in America, metro areas often are described as "donuts" with lots of
development in the surrounding suburbs, but very little happening in the
city that forms the center.



Same in Germany in large cities. Frankfurt (where most flights from the
US land) seems almost deserted at night. People live in the burbs and
it's too far from there to potential city nightlife. So they don't go.


... And the suburbs, where almost all new
development happens, are all car-oriented. It's not only that business
owners expect that everyone will arrive by car; it's also that their
preferences and local regulations usually demand huge parking lots.
Those big parking lots force tremendous reductions in density.


That is indeed a major difference between America and most of the world.
Sprawl isn't different though, it's just that in US people used to want
larger properties. That is changing and now it looks more and more like
Europe, sometimes the density is even higher like he

https://goo.gl/maps/sJn6YgExy1K2

The car orientation is often still there but that has to do with
laziness. "Well, for starters a bicycle doesn't have an A/C button and
it's hot out!"


I live just beyond the biggest strip mall shopping hell for our metro
area. Sure, I can walk from (say) home to the hardware store to a nearby
restaurant, then to the nearest grocery. I could then walk home. But in
a dense inner city, such a trip would be a walk of perhaps several
blocks. Here it's a trip of several miles.

You chose to live in an exurban community that's a freeway drive away
from the nearest real city. It seems strange that you claim that is
somehow equivalent to central Amsterdam.


You can have both. Most places in Europe show how it's done, by not
having strict zoning.

We need to learn from each other. Germany can learn from us (yes, from
the US) how to build good and safe bike path. We can learn from them how
to achieve more walkable neighborhoods.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #45  
Old June 29th 18, 03:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-06-28 18:34, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 4:51:22 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-28 07:12, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 4:56:33 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote:


[...]

You also have the issue that, despite the
astr-turf YIMBY groups, that families with
children generally want to live in single family
homes.


So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to
the dance club, to numerous pubs, grocery stores,
railroad station, almost everywhere.

How old were those European towns? When were they
founded?


Doesn't matter.

I think it does matter.


Why?


Because, as I already said:

I think there are different cultural or social
expectations in Europe, most of which are influenced by
history. Europe seems to generally have much more
restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to
promote "infill" development.

Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle
toured, I was struck by the practicality of city limits.
There seemed to be a boundary around most towns, with
apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and little but
fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no
rural convenience stores or gas stations, for example.
People have been living close for hundreds of years, and
they're used to such a system.


Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to
when your relatives came from Europe. Probably not very
wealthy, they likely settled in an east coast town very similar
to a European one.

Sprawl set in a bit earlier in America but not by much. The
few years difference is because WW-II destroyed much of Europe
but nothing inside the US. Europe had sprawl already before
America as we know it existed and that can be witnessed in the
UK, for example.



It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in
Europe, lived there for decades. An example in Austria:

http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg






Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country:

http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg






This is in the UK:

https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg






In each of your examples, I see what looks like dense development
surrounded by rural fields.


Get your glasses and look again :-)


... And Reussebene doesn't come up on Google Maps. Perhaps if
you gave the locations, we could look at the satellite views
and compare them with similar American towns.


Sorry, but ever since they botched the font sizes Google Maps
has become nearly useless to me. Can't read a thing. I have
lived in Europe for decades and live in the US for decades.
There is not much difference WRT sprawl with two exceptions:

1. The property sizes are a tad smaller in Europe but this is
compensated for by more people per square mile needing a home.

2. They have less or no zoning laws. Unfortunately we do, and
that's where the problem is.


Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to
colonize new land, to take possession of our own acreage,
and to fight any attempt to limit what we can do with
it.

So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of
_course_ they will buy a corn field a few miles out of
town along some farm road. The land is cheaper out there,
and there are fewer zoning rules. They'll put in twisty
residential streets with only one outlet onto that farm
road. They won't bother with sidewalks, because nobody
will use them.

The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having
a new, all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But
someone will eventually say "Hey, I can put a gas station
and convenience store at their corner and make a
killing." So the parking lot lights begin to wash away
the night sky, and the traffic increases.

Soon another realty company builds another mushroom
development nearby, which triggers a little shopping
plaza, and on it goes. It all happens at low density,
because everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow.


If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want
a little strip mall or even just a neighborhood pub then
city hall will say "NOOO!" because it's all zoned
residential.

I'm talking about "development" extending out into former
farm country, specifically because there is no zoning out
there. These are places where there is no city hall, because
they are not in a city.


There will be a community services district or similar
structure in place, prontissimo, and they will lord it over the
people. That's also how it is where I lived.

"Lord it over the people?" You mean that there is a governmental
structure adopted by the residents that is applicable to people
who move in with notice of that structure? My God, that is so
repressive!

Everything you needed to know about your community was available
in the CC&Rs and the CSD filings BEFORE YOU MOVED IN. Don't buy
into a synthetic town and then complain that it's a synthetic
town.


Please follow the thread more closely. This was not about me or
people moving in later. It was about people starting a business out
in the boonies while it was still the boonies. Yes, they will lord
it over them once the density increases.


Yes, lord over them and drive up the land value. Larry Cameron made
a bundle off a cow pasture. To create a CSD, you have to have buy-in
from the existing residents -- so apparently, the one resident
business -- a cow pasture -- was not complaining.


You bet they were. While on a bike ride I saw a old man gazing at a new
development. I wanted to check it out as well so we got to talk. He was
born and raised here and his family dates way back to before this area
was built out. He was ****ed that he had to shell out north of $30k in
lawyer fees and still lost his eminent domain case. In fact, in the end
his lawyer suggested to pull the plug.

The eastern part of Cameron Park has plenty of such families because
that was a properous freight transfer location in the gold rush. When
Larry wasn't born yet.


Examples are plentiful. Such as airports that date back almost to
Lindbergh yet when developments went in they wer closed down or
are under that threat for noise "pollution". Same with farms or
food producers that have been there almost since the gold rush and
now they get in trouble because some "urban cowboys" that should
have stayed in the city moved into the country and can't bear the
stench.


Nothing could land at a Lindbergh era airport except maybe a Cesna
150. Yes, zoning can change, there are some odd-ball California cases
where people brought nuisance claims against existing uses like a pig
farm. Del Webb won a big one, but its an outlier. Much, but not all,
zoning improves land values, and depending on the planning entity, it
protects farm and forest. That is an land use goal in Oregon. Your
little community is immune from change because of the CC&Rs, but I'm
sure you'd enjoy it if a pig farm moved in next door. Go to a zero
zoning jurisdiction and feel the love of pig farms next to
skyscrapers next to toxic waste dumps, etc.


As a young kid I lived near a pig farm. The "scent" didn't bother me and
I could visit the animals which was fun. Only when they slaughtered some
that was hard to take. It was done the old-fashioned style.


You could always go full Kaczynski and live in a 10 X 10 shack
on some forgotten BLM land in the Badlands and not live in an
airpark/golf course community with CC&Rs up the butt. I'm sure
you would enjoy that. Plenty of room for beer brewing.


They'd even threaten you out there if someone with a big bank
account decided to turn swaths of land around you into a "senior
adventure living community" or whatever.


And then your 10X10 shack is worth $1M. Worry about being condemned
for a road or dam.


There are people who don't want money, they want to be left alone like
they used to be. They want to enjoy true freedom.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #46  
Old June 29th 18, 04:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Friday, June 29, 2018 at 7:21:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

snip

Yes, lord over them and drive up the land value. Larry Cameron made
a bundle off a cow pasture. To create a CSD, you have to have buy-in
from the existing residents -- so apparently, the one resident
business -- a cow pasture -- was not complaining.


You bet they were. While on a bike ride I saw a old man gazing at a new
development. I wanted to check it out as well so we got to talk. He was
born and raised here and his family dates way back to before this area
was built out. He was ****ed that he had to shell out north of $30k in
lawyer fees and still lost his eminent domain case. In fact, in the end
his lawyer suggested to pull the plug.

The eastern part of Cameron Park has plenty of such families because
that was a properous freight transfer location in the gold rush. When
Larry wasn't born yet.


Eminent domain is taking by the government and not private development. Your wistful old man probably spent his money trying to prevent the development by challenging a zoning change that allowed PUDs or some sort of high density development.

The Cameron Park CSD is 8.3 square miles, so I question how much of the land you mention is in the CSD rather than unincorporated El Dorado County. Counties having land-use planning authority, too. Down with counties!




Examples are plentiful. Such as airports that date back almost to
Lindbergh yet when developments went in they wer closed down or
are under that threat for noise "pollution". Same with farms or
food producers that have been there almost since the gold rush and
now they get in trouble because some "urban cowboys" that should
have stayed in the city moved into the country and can't bear the
stench.


Nothing could land at a Lindbergh era airport except maybe a Cesna
150. Yes, zoning can change, there are some odd-ball California cases
where people brought nuisance claims against existing uses like a pig
farm. Del Webb won a big one, but its an outlier. Much, but not all,
zoning improves land values, and depending on the planning entity, it
protects farm and forest. That is an land use goal in Oregon. Your
little community is immune from change because of the CC&Rs, but I'm
sure you'd enjoy it if a pig farm moved in next door. Go to a zero
zoning jurisdiction and feel the love of pig farms next to
skyscrapers next to toxic waste dumps, etc.


As a young kid I lived near a pig farm. The "scent" didn't bother me and
I could visit the animals which was fun. Only when they slaughtered some
that was hard to take. It was done the old-fashioned style.


There are plenty of pig farms left that you could live near. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...stry-pig-farms




You could always go full Kaczynski and live in a 10 X 10 shack
on some forgotten BLM land in the Badlands and not live in an
airpark/golf course community with CC&Rs up the butt. I'm sure
you would enjoy that. Plenty of room for beer brewing.


They'd even threaten you out there if someone with a big bank
account decided to turn swaths of land around you into a "senior
adventure living community" or whatever.


And then your 10X10 shack is worth $1M. Worry about being condemned
for a road or dam.


There are people who don't want money, they want to be left alone like
they used to be. They want to enjoy true freedom.


Get a black and white TV and imagine the past that never existed. Plus, you can take $1M, invest wisely and then move to some place with a PO box where you can get your checks -- because you won't have any clients, internet access, running water, electricity, beer supplies, FedEx for your FleaBay and Amazon purchases, etc., etc. Maybe somewhere in Nevada. https://www.ctbto.org/uploads/tx_ctb...raters_mod.jpg Build a nice shack out of blast debris from the model towns.


-- Jay Beattie.
  #47  
Old June 29th 18, 05:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-06-29 08:26, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 29, 2018 at 7:21:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

snip

Yes, lord over them and drive up the land value. Larry Cameron
made a bundle off a cow pasture. To create a CSD, you have to
have buy-in from the existing residents -- so apparently, the one
resident business -- a cow pasture -- was not complaining.


You bet they were. While on a bike ride I saw a old man gazing at a
new development. I wanted to check it out as well so we got to
talk. He was born and raised here and his family dates way back to
before this area was built out. He was ****ed that he had to shell
out north of $30k in lawyer fees and still lost his eminent domain
case. In fact, in the end his lawyer suggested to pull the plug.

The eastern part of Cameron Park has plenty of such families
because that was a properous freight transfer location in the gold
rush. When Larry wasn't born yet.


Eminent domain is taking by the government and not private
development.



Get real. Often it works like this: Developer proposes something
mega-big. Board starts tapping on the calculators, then some beging to
salivate. "That would mean this much more in taxes!" - Eminent domain
process soon starts.


... Your wistful old man probably spent his money trying to
prevent the development by challenging a zoning change that allowed
PUDs or some sort of high density development.


Exactly, that's what I mean. You live in the boonies, development
encroaches, zoning restrictions come in and your lovely remote location
and freedome is largely gone.


The Cameron Park CSD is 8.3 square miles, so I question how much of
the land you mention is in the CSD rather than unincorporated El
Dorado County. Counties having land-use planning authority, too.
Down with counties!


Sure, counties do it as well.


Examples are plentiful. Such as airports that date back almost
to Lindbergh yet when developments went in they wer closed down
or are under that threat for noise "pollution". Same with farms
or food producers that have been there almost since the gold
rush and now they get in trouble because some "urban cowboys"
that should have stayed in the city moved into the country and
can't bear the stench.

Nothing could land at a Lindbergh era airport except maybe a
Cesna 150. Yes, zoning can change, there are some odd-ball
California cases where people brought nuisance claims against
existing uses like a pig farm. Del Webb won a big one, but its an
outlier. Much, but not all, zoning improves land values, and
depending on the planning entity, it protects farm and forest.
That is an land use goal in Oregon. Your little community is
immune from change because of the CC&Rs, but I'm sure you'd enjoy
it if a pig farm moved in next door. Go to a zero zoning
jurisdiction and feel the love of pig farms next to skyscrapers
next to toxic waste dumps, etc.


As a young kid I lived near a pig farm. The "scent" didn't bother
me and I could visit the animals which was fun. Only when they
slaughtered some that was hard to take. It was done the
old-fashioned style.


There are plenty of pig farms left that you could live near.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...stry-pig-farms


I don't want to but it never bothered me. I am not a pampered city
dweller and plan not to become one.



You could always go full Kaczynski and live in a 10 X 10
shack on some forgotten BLM land in the Badlands and not live
in an airpark/golf course community with CC&Rs up the butt.
I'm sure you would enjoy that. Plenty of room for beer
brewing.


They'd even threaten you out there if someone with a big bank
account decided to turn swaths of land around you into a
"senior adventure living community" or whatever.

And then your 10X10 shack is worth $1M. Worry about being
condemned for a road or dam.


There are people who don't want money, they want to be left alone
like they used to be. They want to enjoy true freedom.


Get a black and white TV and imagine the past that never existed.



The family of a friend of mine back in high school had no TV at all at
home. Not because they were poor, no, they had a well-running nursery
business. Now that he has a wife and kids and all they keep it the same
way. They cycle together, climb together, hike, outdoors all the time.
TV means nothing to them. My own TV consumption consists of the evening
news (sans the sports part) and the occasional Western from a recording.
That's it.


Plus, you can take $1M, invest wisely and then move to some place
with a PO box where you can get your checks -- because you won't have
any clients, internet access, running water, electricity, beer
supplies, FedEx for your FleaBay and Amazon purchases, etc., etc.
Maybe somewhere in Nevada.



Air freight goes to very remote places and wherever they go I can live
and work. Except I am in the process of retiring so if there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwIQk8vuN1M

For Internet there's Hughes Net (satellite), for water there are pumps,
for electricity there is solar plus Li-Ion. You can always grow your own
barley and malt it but Midwest Supplies sends everywhere for a flat fee.
Fedex goes just about everywhere.

If I had my druthers I'd live on a Carribean island.


https://www.ctbto.org/uploads/tx_ctb...raters_mod.jpg
Build a nice shack out of blast debris from the model towns.


I want more interesting MTB turf. Maybe Southern Utah some day.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #48  
Old June 29th 18, 06:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 6/29/2018 10:26 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 29, 2018 at 7:21:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

snip

Yes, lord over them and drive up the land value. Larry Cameron made
a bundle off a cow pasture. To create a CSD, you have to have buy-in
from the existing residents -- so apparently, the one resident
business -- a cow pasture -- was not complaining.


You bet they were. While on a bike ride I saw a old man gazing at a new
development. I wanted to check it out as well so we got to talk. He was
born and raised here and his family dates way back to before this area
was built out. He was ****ed that he had to shell out north of $30k in
lawyer fees and still lost his eminent domain case. In fact, in the end
his lawyer suggested to pull the plug.

The eastern part of Cameron Park has plenty of such families because
that was a properous freight transfer location in the gold rush. When
Larry wasn't born yet.


Eminent domain is taking by the government and not private development. Your wistful old man probably spent his money trying to prevent the development by challenging a zoning change that allowed PUDs or some sort of high density development.

-snip snip-

Maybe back in the old country, where I was born, not now:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/04-108.ZS.html

Try to keep up

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #49  
Old June 29th 18, 07:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Friday, June 29, 2018 at 9:56:21 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-29 08:26, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 29, 2018 at 7:21:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

snip

Yes, lord over them and drive up the land value. Larry Cameron
made a bundle off a cow pasture. To create a CSD, you have to
have buy-in from the existing residents -- so apparently, the one
resident business -- a cow pasture -- was not complaining.


You bet they were. While on a bike ride I saw a old man gazing at a
new development. I wanted to check it out as well so we got to
talk. He was born and raised here and his family dates way back to
before this area was built out. He was ****ed that he had to shell
out north of $30k in lawyer fees and still lost his eminent domain
case. In fact, in the end his lawyer suggested to pull the plug.

The eastern part of Cameron Park has plenty of such families
because that was a properous freight transfer location in the gold
rush. When Larry wasn't born yet.


Eminent domain is taking by the government and not private
development.



Get real. Often it works like this: Developer proposes something
mega-big. Board starts tapping on the calculators, then some beging to
salivate. "That would mean this much more in taxes!" - Eminent domain
process soon starts.


That's not eminent domain. That's development and the usual plan approval process. Developers have to dedicate streets and other facilities -- its the quid pro quo for plan approval, but government is not condemning property.. It is why you have bike trails in Folsom in those new developments. The developers had to dedicate the land as a condition of plan approval. Here's an example from Florida -- https://www.pascocountyfl.net/Docume...arkey-MPUD-COA Closer to home: https://www.cityofsacramento.org/-/m...tion.pdf?la=en

Welcome to the 21st century, although there are examples of developments going back to the 18th century and building codes and zoning going back to colonial era -- back when people were free, damn it!



... Your wistful old man probably spent his money trying to
prevent the development by challenging a zoning change that allowed
PUDs or some sort of high density development.


Exactly, that's what I mean. You live in the boonies, development
encroaches, zoning restrictions come in and your lovely remote location
and freedome is largely gone.


The Cameron Park CSD is 8.3 square miles, so I question how much of
the land you mention is in the CSD rather than unincorporated El
Dorado County. Counties having land-use planning authority, too.
Down with counties!


Sure, counties do it as well.


Examples are plentiful. Such as airports that date back almost
to Lindbergh yet when developments went in they wer closed down
or are under that threat for noise "pollution". Same with farms
or food producers that have been there almost since the gold
rush and now they get in trouble because some "urban cowboys"
that should have stayed in the city moved into the country and
can't bear the stench.

Nothing could land at a Lindbergh era airport except maybe a
Cesna 150. Yes, zoning can change, there are some odd-ball
California cases where people brought nuisance claims against
existing uses like a pig farm. Del Webb won a big one, but its an
outlier. Much, but not all, zoning improves land values, and
depending on the planning entity, it protects farm and forest.
That is an land use goal in Oregon. Your little community is
immune from change because of the CC&Rs, but I'm sure you'd enjoy
it if a pig farm moved in next door. Go to a zero zoning
jurisdiction and feel the love of pig farms next to skyscrapers
next to toxic waste dumps, etc.


As a young kid I lived near a pig farm. The "scent" didn't bother
me and I could visit the animals which was fun. Only when they
slaughtered some that was hard to take. It was done the
old-fashioned style.


There are plenty of pig farms left that you could live near.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...stry-pig-farms


I don't want to but it never bothered me. I am not a pampered city
dweller and plan not to become one.


Pffff. Yes you are. Is there another name for this: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BnBoGhNWXx4/maxresdefault.jpg I sure don't have a country club in my neighborhood.

You play like you're some rugged individualist with your prairie schooner crossing the Ore-y-gun trail -- and yet you complain about trucks, lack of bike facilities, etc., etc. Soft, soft, soft. Real bicycle cowboys herd buses, like I do. Buses are like cows, but bigger and stupider.




You could always go full Kaczynski and live in a 10 X 10
shack on some forgotten BLM land in the Badlands and not live
in an airpark/golf course community with CC&Rs up the butt.
I'm sure you would enjoy that. Plenty of room for beer
brewing.


They'd even threaten you out there if someone with a big bank
account decided to turn swaths of land around you into a
"senior adventure living community" or whatever.

And then your 10X10 shack is worth $1M. Worry about being
condemned for a road or dam.


There are people who don't want money, they want to be left alone
like they used to be. They want to enjoy true freedom.


Get a black and white TV and imagine the past that never existed.



The family of a friend of mine back in high school had no TV at all at
home. Not because they were poor, no, they had a well-running nursery
business. Now that he has a wife and kids and all they keep it the same
way. They cycle together, climb together, hike, outdoors all the time.
TV means nothing to them. My own TV consumption consists of the evening
news (sans the sports part) and the occasional Western from a recording.
That's it.


And? I never understood the smugness of non-TV watchers. It's like you can't watch some TV and hike, bike, climb, etc., etc.? Donald Trump is a voracious TV watcher and look how smart he is -- and physically gifted, too. I heard he was born under a double-rainbow and trains unicorns in his spare time.

I watch TV and ride with my son all the time. Riding with him is not that great since I'm not into being throttled relentlessly. I even commute to work with him many mornings. The whole family thing is over-blown. There are better families on TV -- like Leave it to Beaver. I want a vaguely hot wife with a blond perm who vacuums in an a-line skirt, angora sweater and a strand of pearls. Compliant kids would be awesome! Beaver, clean your room! [room gets cleaned].

BTW, my friends were in Hurricane, UT but moved to Mesquite and just left there because it sucked. There is plenty of available moonscape. It's not too late to move.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #50  
Old June 29th 18, 08:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-06-29 11:31, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 29, 2018 at 9:56:21 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-29 08:26, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 29, 2018 at 7:21:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

snip

Yes, lord over them and drive up the land value. Larry
Cameron made a bundle off a cow pasture. To create a CSD, you
have to have buy-in from the existing residents -- so
apparently, the one resident business -- a cow pasture -- was
not complaining.


You bet they were. While on a bike ride I saw a old man gazing
at a new development. I wanted to check it out as well so we
got to talk. He was born and raised here and his family dates
way back to before this area was built out. He was ****ed that
he had to shell out north of $30k in lawyer fees and still lost
his eminent domain case. In fact, in the end his lawyer
suggested to pull the plug.

The eastern part of Cameron Park has plenty of such families
because that was a properous freight transfer location in the
gold rush. When Larry wasn't born yet.

Eminent domain is taking by the government and not private
development.



Get real. Often it works like this: Developer proposes something
mega-big. Board starts tapping on the calculators, then some beging
to salivate. "That would mean this much more in taxes!" - Eminent
domain process soon starts.


That's not eminent domain. That's development and the usual plan
approval process. Developers have to dedicate streets and other
facilities -- its the quid pro quo for plan approval, but government
is not condemning property.



It is, once either some of your property gets taken or once a right you
had up to now is taken away. Such as operating a certain business that
now is considered a nuisance or is no longer allowed due to a zoning
decision.


... It is why you have bike trails in Folsom
in those new developments. The developers had to dedicate the land
as a condition of plan approval. Here's an example from Florida --
https://www.pascocountyfl.net/Docume...arkey-MPUD-COA
Closer to home:
https://www.cityofsacramento.org/-/m...tion.pdf?la=en


That's not always good. If someone operated a Jiffy Lube type biz there
for three generations and that right gets taken away that is de facto a
confiscation.


Welcome to the 21st century, although there are examples of
developments going back to the 18th century and building codes and
zoning going back to colonial era -- back when people were free, damn
it!


Back then they protected themselves from overreach either with
Smith&Wesson or Winchester :-)

Sadly, nowadays people use those for revenge against an imaginary
"enemy" :-(


... Your wistful old man probably spent his money trying to
prevent the development by challenging a zoning change that
allowed PUDs or some sort of high density development.


Exactly, that's what I mean. You live in the boonies, development
encroaches, zoning restrictions come in and your lovely remote
location and freedome is largely gone.


The Cameron Park CSD is 8.3 square miles, so I question how much
of the land you mention is in the CSD rather than unincorporated
El Dorado County. Counties having land-use planning authority,
too. Down with counties!


Sure, counties do it as well.


Examples are plentiful. Such as airports that date back
almost to Lindbergh yet when developments went in they wer
closed down or are under that threat for noise "pollution".
Same with farms or food producers that have been there
almost since the gold rush and now they get in trouble
because some "urban cowboys" that should have stayed in the
city moved into the country and can't bear the stench.

Nothing could land at a Lindbergh era airport except maybe a
Cesna 150. Yes, zoning can change, there are some odd-ball
California cases where people brought nuisance claims
against existing uses like a pig farm. Del Webb won a big
one, but its an outlier. Much, but not all, zoning improves
land values, and depending on the planning entity, it
protects farm and forest. That is an land use goal in Oregon.
Your little community is immune from change because of the
CC&Rs, but I'm sure you'd enjoy it if a pig farm moved in
next door. Go to a zero zoning jurisdiction and feel the love
of pig farms next to skyscrapers next to toxic waste dumps,
etc.


As a young kid I lived near a pig farm. The "scent" didn't
bother me and I could visit the animals which was fun. Only
when they slaughtered some that was hard to take. It was done
the old-fashioned style.

There are plenty of pig farms left that you could live near.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...stry-pig-farms




I don't want to but it never bothered me. I am not a pampered city
dweller and plan not to become one.


Pffff. Yes you are. Is there another name for this:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BnBoGhNWXx4/maxresdefault.jpg I sure don't
have a country club in my neighborhood.


I never deliberately set foot on it and never will. Not a member. It
just happened to be there where we picked a house.

The only time I was in their club house was because of a memorial
service for a friend who passed away and was a member.


You play like you're some rugged individualist with your prairie
schooner crossing the Ore-y-gun trail -- and yet you complain about
trucks, lack of bike facilities, etc., etc. Soft, soft, soft. Real
bicycle cowboys herd buses, like I do. Buses are like cows, but
bigger and stupider.


Herding the yellow ones can give you lung cancer.


You could always go full Kaczynski and live in a 10 X 10
shack on some forgotten BLM land in the Badlands and not
live in an airpark/golf course community with CC&Rs up
the butt. I'm sure you would enjoy that. Plenty of room
for beer brewing.


They'd even threaten you out there if someone with a big
bank account decided to turn swaths of land around you into
a "senior adventure living community" or whatever.

And then your 10X10 shack is worth $1M. Worry about being
condemned for a road or dam.


There are people who don't want money, they want to be left
alone like they used to be. They want to enjoy true freedom.

Get a black and white TV and imagine the past that never
existed.



The family of a friend of mine back in high school had no TV at all
at home. Not because they were poor, no, they had a well-running
nursery business. Now that he has a wife and kids and all they keep
it the same way. They cycle together, climb together, hike,
outdoors all the time. TV means nothing to them. My own TV
consumption consists of the evening news (sans the sports part) and
the occasional Western from a recording. That's it.


And? I never understood the smugness of non-TV watchers. It's like
you can't watch some TV and hike, bike, climb, etc., etc.?



Nothing smug about it. The day has only 24h and some people assign
cycling a higher priority than TV, video games or cell phone apps. I've
met people who seriously said they do not have time for 100mi/week of
cycling. Really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_consumption

Quote "According to a Nielsen report, United States adults are watching
five hours and four minutes of television per day on average" That is
IMO plain sick.

With the younger generation it is moving away from TV and into smart
phone screens, virtual reality and all that. Plus probably lots of pop
tarts.


... Donald
Trump is a voracious TV watcher and look how smart he is -- and
physically gifted, too. I heard he was born under a double-rainbow
and trains unicorns in his spare time.


He is smart but he is seriously overweight. No surprise there. TV isn't
all that great for the physical fitness of a person.


I watch TV and ride with my son all the time. Riding with him is not
that great since I'm not into being throttled relentlessly. I even
commute to work with him many mornings. The whole family thing is
over-blown. There are better families on TV -- like Leave it to
Beaver.



Or the Bunkers :-)

That's how I learned English in a far away land. Well, that and Wolfman
Jack.


I want a vaguely hot wife with a blond perm who vacuums in an
a-line skirt, angora sweater and a strand of pearls. Compliant kids
would be awesome! Beaver, clean your room! [room gets cleaned].

BTW, my friends were in Hurricane, UT but moved to Mesquite and just
left there because it sucked. There is plenty of available
moonscape. It's not too late to move.


I can't imagine there being any comparable mountain biking in Mesquite.
My MTB buddy just came back from Hurricane, he'll be over for barbecue
on Sunday and tell us more. It's pretty good where we live, lots of MTB
trails though some require trucking it there. Now that I am gradually
retiring that will open more time to do rides like the Rubicon or some
trails towards Lake Tahoe. Who knows, maybe we'll stay. What I seriously
abhor is body politicus in California.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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