#131
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Jobst
As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house call.... for $2.00 :-) To be honest I never paid a doctor $2.00 to make a house call but I remember being sick and the doctor coming and my folks talking about $2.00. Granted, I was just a kid but my salary was eleven cents a week for milking the cow six evenings a week. And slopping two hogs. But in a more serious vein, what is "wealth disparity"? Is it that you make more money then I do? I'm fairly sure that you do as you seem to be still working and I'm retired. Should I be rushing around waving my arms in the air shouting Unfair! Unfair! The concept that a bloke who starts a business selling bootleg records out of the trunk of his car, for example, is not entitled to everything he can make, or the guy, not even a collage graduate, that starts up a little two man business that grows because they can provide a service, is not entitled to his earnings, seems wrong to me. -- Cheers, John B. Paradise. We used to -dream- of digging ditches ... would've been looxury to oos. As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house call.... for $2.00 :-) We had to work at mill 14 hours/day for 8p/month! My father used to pay someone to mow the field and the rest of the haying was done by hand. When OUR dad got home he'd beat us around the head with a broken bot'l! S.CNR. So much for sarcasm. But I doubt it was 8p/month as in mid-1860s manual laborers in London received 3s. 9d. for a 10-hour day - 6 day week. An engineer I suspect that the U.S. term would be "mechanic"' made 7/6 (= Ł110 pounds/year). A bit earlier a mill worker (fabric) was paid 33/8 per week in 1833. And, what you don't seem to mention was the cost of living in the same period. In about 1898 my grandfather and his wife "moved to town" and he worked for a dollar a day as a carpenter. I once asked my grandmother how they could have gotten along on a dollar a day (I was making 50 cents an hour after school and weekends) and she said, that it wasn't a bad wage when bread cost 3 cents a loaf. Yeah but try telling that to the young people of today. Will they believe you? Nooooooooooo |
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#133
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Jobst
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 23:24:15 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote: As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house call.... for $2.00 :-) To be honest I never paid a doctor $2.00 to make a house call but I remember being sick and the doctor coming and my folks talking about $2.00. Granted, I was just a kid but my salary was eleven cents a week for milking the cow six evenings a week. And slopping two hogs. But in a more serious vein, what is "wealth disparity"? Is it that you make more money then I do? I'm fairly sure that you do as you seem to be still working and I'm retired. Should I be rushing around waving my arms in the air shouting Unfair! Unfair! The concept that a bloke who starts a business selling bootleg records out of the trunk of his car, for example, is not entitled to everything he can make, or the guy, not even a collage graduate, that starts up a little two man business that grows because they can provide a service, is not entitled to his earnings, seems wrong to me. -- Cheers, John B. Paradise. We used to -dream- of digging ditches ... would've been looxury to oos. As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house call.... for $2.00 :-) We had to work at mill 14 hours/day for 8p/month! My father used to pay someone to mow the field and the rest of the haying was done by hand. When OUR dad got home he'd beat us around the head with a broken bot'l! S.CNR. So much for sarcasm. But I doubt it was 8p/month as in mid-1860s manual laborers in London received 3s. 9d. for a 10-hour day - 6 day week. An engineer I suspect that the U.S. term would be "mechanic"' made 7/6 (= ?110 pounds/year). A bit earlier a mill worker (fabric) was paid 33/8 per week in 1833. And, what you don't seem to mention was the cost of living in the same period. In about 1898 my grandfather and his wife "moved to town" and he worked for a dollar a day as a carpenter. I once asked my grandmother how they could have gotten along on a dollar a day (I was making 50 cents an hour after school and weekends) and she said, that it wasn't a bad wage when bread cost 3 cents a loaf. Yeah but try telling that to the young people of today. Will they believe you? Nooooooooooo The point was that simply listing a number and saying. "Wow! A lot" or "Yuck! So little" is meaningless, as it is only "lot" or "little" relative to costs. My Grandfather's dollar a day wasn't bad wages as he could buy 33 loaves of bread with it. In a similar discussion someone said that in his part of California bread was 6 dollars a loaf so a modern salary to equal my grandfather's wages' buying power might be $199.00, or about $25/hour. -- Cheers, John B. |
#134
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Jobst
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 8:05:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 07:31:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 5:47:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 1:05:25 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote: Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing any other manual labour. How so? Well, it's plain that you've never worked. Quite the contrary. I grew up on a small New England farm where most of the work was done by hand. Ditches for water pipes were 6 feet deep to get below the frost line, hay for the animals was cut with a mowing machine and then tedded, loaded on wagons and mowed away by hand. I did "chores" commensurate with my size from the time I was 6 or 7 years old. Shoot, everybody did. Didn't they? Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?" As for capitalism.... what else is there? There is socialism as described by Marx and Lenin. Which doesn't work. China's current prosperity is largely due to a disabling of the original state run economy and now incorporates a modified capitalistic system. John, enough of your bull****. I know what happens to people who swing picks 8 hours a day. The human body is not designed for that sort of thing and you end up like my brother with a degraded bone structure in your back and legs like my brother. I can comment on your relatives but I've know a great many people that worked their entire life without the problems you describe. I had a great uncle that had been a fireman on ships, shoveling coal by hand, and was in his late 60's or early 70's when he worked a while for my father. I watched him mow around a 2 acre field with a hand scythe - that is about 400 yards a lap. He'd keep a bottle of water in one corner and stop for a drink when he got reached that corner. My grandfather raised chickens, about 3,000 of them usually, with no help at all. He heated the house with wood for years and spent every September cutting wood with an axe and a hand saw and hauling it home and stacking it in the "wood house". I could go on but why bother, it was common when I was a young fellow to see people work. I might add that the great uncle died at 86, my grandfather at 87. You believe that people can work like that even though with the reduction of such labor the human lifespan has increased by 50%. Yup it sure has. Taking people from the earliest days in the U.S. who's lives were well documented we have Thomas Jefferson, 83 when he died, John Adams was 90, George Washington was a young 67 - but he died due to blood loss from the then popular medical procedure of bloodletting, George Wythe was 80, Paul Revere was 83 and Ben Franklin was 84. Current U.S. male life expectancy seems to be 79.3 and one article states that it is decreasing. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/22/us-l...o-by-2030.html Essentially it says that "Notable among poor-performing countries is the USA, whose life expectancy at birth is already lower than most other high-income countries, and is projected to fall further behind such that its 2030 life expectancy at birth might be similar to the Czech". It's pretty plain that dementia or whatever is taking it's toll on you. Tell me again how the military lied to me. If dementia has overtaken me it apparently has overtaken the majority of the world's data gathering agencies also. John - you continue to pretend that somehow the USA should have a lifespan the equal of the Norway or Switzerland when those countries are racially fixed and the USA has people coming in from all over the world. "From birth" is a lie. They simply take the age at death and the number of births and calculate a lifespan that has little to nothing to do with the actual lifespan of an American citizen born and bred. But that dementia appears to serve you well for using statistics that are meaningless but which you can twist to your own requirements. |
#135
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Jobst
On 9/7/2017 11:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 11:16:11 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote: OTOH, I also don't see any sense in corporation CEOs getting paid hundreds of times what their professional workers get paid, or paying a lower percentage of their income in taxes. Other country's corporations seem to thrive with much smaller relative pay scales for CEOs. What would be an equitable wage for a chap managing a world wide business with 11,600 stores in 28 countries, employing 2.3 million people with annual revenues of 480 billion dollars and a net income of 14.69 billion? Well, as a very rough guess, I'd limit it to something like 20 times what an average employee earns. Or perhaps $500k per year. After all, what's an equitable wage for the president of the most powerful country on earth? Seems $400,000 is enough to get lots of serious applicants, and I've not seen evidence that a pay raise would generate any better quality applications. Besides, what does a person do with more than $500,000 per year? Does it make him happier? Does it generate any good for society? I very much doubt it. I also doubt it generates any good for a corporation's investors. From what I can tell, CEO pay does not correlate well with corporation performance. This guy still makes too much, in my opinion; but he makes less than a great many CEOs of large corporations, while outperforming them. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sw...85D0R920120614 -- - Frank Krygowski |
#136
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Jobst
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 8:14:03 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 11:42:09 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote: rPer AMuzi: Plus livestock antibiotics. Excellent payout for the grower; low cost, faster bigger growth. Eventually you're evolving some really hardy bugs though... That's what has been preying on my mind the whole time. Numbers of animals, tons of antibiotics, and uncontrolled usage time would seem to make human over-use all but trivial by comparison. Given the expected consequences of a post-antibiotic era, I can't figure out why livestock use of antibiotics is not recognized as a major national security issue. Only thing I can come up with is money changing hands... Not only antibiotics but I believe that various hormones are also used. I read that growth hormones given to cattle produce more lean beef faster. And time is money :-) Weight is money. That's why the growth hormones. Cattle are slaughtered pretty much at 14-16 months now. When I was a kid they free-ranged them and slaughtered them at 5 years old. Now all of my relatives are out of farming and ranching. The El Camino Real now runs right through where one cousin had a large Walnut orchard. One more great uncle sold his farm in Salinas and went back to Croatia. Another cousin leases his 40 acres to a factory farm operation in Tracy. But housing is encroaching and there's no telling how long that will last. I really hated the yucky job of milking cows. "Dad, let's not visit Bobby early in the morning." |
#137
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Jobst
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 5:27:11 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 23:24:15 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau wrote: As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house call.... for $2.00 :-) To be honest I never paid a doctor $2.00 to make a house call but I remember being sick and the doctor coming and my folks talking about $2.00. Granted, I was just a kid but my salary was eleven cents a week for milking the cow six evenings a week. And slopping two hogs. But in a more serious vein, what is "wealth disparity"? Is it that you make more money then I do? I'm fairly sure that you do as you seem to be still working and I'm retired. Should I be rushing around waving my arms in the air shouting Unfair! Unfair! The concept that a bloke who starts a business selling bootleg records out of the trunk of his car, for example, is not entitled to everything he can make, or the guy, not even a collage graduate, that starts up a little two man business that grows because they can provide a service, is not entitled to his earnings, seems wrong to me. -- Cheers, John B. Paradise. We used to -dream- of digging ditches ... would've been looxury to oos. As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house call.... for $2.00 :-) We had to work at mill 14 hours/day for 8p/month! My father used to pay someone to mow the field and the rest of the haying was done by hand. When OUR dad got home he'd beat us around the head with a broken bot'l! S.CNR. So much for sarcasm. But I doubt it was 8p/month as in mid-1860s manual laborers in London received 3s. 9d. for a 10-hour day - 6 day week. An engineer I suspect that the U.S. term would be "mechanic"' made 7/6 (= ?110 pounds/year). A bit earlier a mill worker (fabric) was paid 33/8 per week in 1833. And, what you don't seem to mention was the cost of living in the same period. In about 1898 my grandfather and his wife "moved to town" and he worked for a dollar a day as a carpenter. I once asked my grandmother how they could have gotten along on a dollar a day (I was making 50 cents an hour after school and weekends) and she said, that it wasn't a bad wage when bread cost 3 cents a loaf. Yeah but try telling that to the young people of today. Will they believe you? Nooooooooooo The point was that simply listing a number and saying. "Wow! A lot" or "Yuck! So little" is meaningless, as it is only "lot" or "little" relative to costs. My Grandfather's dollar a day wasn't bad wages as he could buy 33 loaves of bread with it. In a similar discussion someone said that in his part of California bread was 6 dollars a loaf so a modern salary to equal my grandfather's wages' buying power might be $199.00, or about $25/hour. How about his phone bill, how much was that? |
#138
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Jobst
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 5:26:51 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/7/2017 10:05 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 07:31:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 5:47:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 1:05:25 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote: Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing any other manual labour. How so? Well, it's plain that you've never worked. Quite the contrary. I grew up on a small New England farm where most of the work was done by hand. Ditches for water pipes were 6 feet deep to get below the frost line, hay for the animals was cut with a mowing machine and then tedded, loaded on wagons and mowed away by hand. I did "chores" commensurate with my size from the time I was 6 or 7 years old. Shoot, everybody did. Didn't they? Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?" As for capitalism.... what else is there? There is socialism as described by Marx and Lenin. Which doesn't work. China's current prosperity is largely due to a disabling of the original state run economy and now incorporates a modified capitalistic system. John, enough of your bull****. I know what happens to people who swing picks 8 hours a day. The human body is not designed for that sort of thing and you end up like my brother with a degraded bone structure in your back and legs like my brother. I can comment on your relatives but I've know a great many people that worked their entire life without the problems you describe. I had a great uncle that had been a fireman on ships, shoveling coal by hand, and was in his late 60's or early 70's when he worked a while for my father. I watched him mow around a 2 acre field with a hand scythe - that is about 400 yards a lap. He'd keep a bottle of water in one corner and stop for a drink when he got reached that corner. My grandfather raised chickens, about 3,000 of them usually, with no help at all. He heated the house with wood for years and spent every September cutting wood with an axe and a hand saw and hauling it home and stacking it in the "wood house". I could go on but why bother, it was common when I was a young fellow to see people work. I might add that the great uncle died at 86, my grandfather at 87. You believe that people can work like that even though with the reduction of such labor the human lifespan has increased by 50%. Yup it sure has. Taking people from the earliest days in the U.S. who's lives were well documented we have Thomas Jefferson, 83 when he died, John Adams was 90, George Washington was a young 67 - but he died due to blood loss from the then popular medical procedure of bloodletting, George Wythe was 80, Paul Revere was 83 and Ben Franklin was 84. Current U.S. male life expectancy seems to be 79.3 and one article states that it is decreasing. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/22/us-l...o-by-2030.html Essentially it says that "Notable among poor-performing countries is the USA, whose life expectancy at birth is already lower than most other high-income countries, and is projected to fall further behind such that its 2030 life expectancy at birth might be similar to the Czech". It's pretty plain that dementia or whatever is taking it's toll on you. Tell me again how the military lied to me. If dementia has overtaken me it apparently has overtaken the majority of the world's data gathering agencies also. I can see where there would be differences from one job to another[1] but I was never more fit than as the 'low man' on a steel & concrete crew. There were no obese men on that crew of about 40 guys including the foreman. Carrying steel, setting up and breaking down forms etc is very good exercise. Tying steel standing all day is not. The days we ran steel up, with one man on each floor hand-over-hand to the next level, was very hard work but that was only once a week. [1]Hod carriers (masons' assistants) had IMHO the worst job but that, like much of the work done back then, is now mechanized. :-) :-) :-) I was a mason's assistant for a year. I never used a hod tho and rarely dealt with stairs. I mostly used a wheelbarrow on the driveways, and carried buckets of mud up 2-3 levels of scaffolding to the tops of chimneys I did get the experience Tim describes - tossing 100-Lb sacks on my shoulder. It was fun. Except for the poof of cement dust in your face. I did a little masonry project 5 yrs ago (am 52) and threw one more sack on my shoulder. It was no longer fun. |
#139
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Jobst
On 9/7/2017 3:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 11:31:46 AM UTC-7, wrote: I know a guy who took a day-trading class and with almost nothing to invest now makes a steady income about the same as the best wage I ever made and in only a year. Would you consider this guy a thief? No, he's a day trader. Why don't you take a day trading class? You can become the RBT fund manager. FWIW, if there's to be a RBT investment fund, I want a fund manager who doesn't complain about his memory problems and doesn't complain about how his investments have crashed. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#140
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Jobst
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 9:27:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/7/2017 3:49 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 11:31:46 AM UTC-7, wrote: I know a guy who took a day-trading class and with almost nothing to invest now makes a steady income about the same as the best wage I ever made and in only a year. Would you consider this guy a thief? No, he's a day trader. Why don't you take a day trading class? You can become the RBT fund manager. FWIW, if there's to be a RBT investment fund, I want a fund manager who doesn't complain about his memory problems and doesn't complain about how his investments have crashed. Meh. https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/04/m...-people-study/ -- Jay Beattie. |
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