#11
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Shimano Headset
John B. wrote:
There used to be a "rule of thumb" to always use an adjustable wrench so that the force is against the fixed jaw. I have proved this rule myself. I was squatting down tightening the bolts that held a large vise to a bench. The wrench didn't fit in its proper orientation so I flipped it over and pushed against the movable jaw. I proved, at least to my own satisfaction, that (1) an adjustable wrench used in this manner will slip, and (2) a broken nose Hurts! Ha! I've heard the rule and some people insist it be adhered to even for fixed wrenches! Well, I suppose the smaller jaw is the one that corresponds to the movable jaw. But really I think this is just something they have brought over from using adjustable wrenches. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
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#12
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Shimano Headset
On 2017-05-10 17:53, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 10 May 2017 15:41:23 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Wednesday, May 10, 2017 at 6:19:24 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2017-05-10 14:41, Emanuel Berg wrote: Joerg wrote: In the lower picture you can see what I mentioned in another thread: Fixed wrenches, in contrast to adjustable ones, are always larger than the nuts. Have to be in order to account for tolerances. So they never grab cleanly which will wear the nut over time and also ding it. Well... doesn't any wrench has to be bigger than the nut in order to grab it? Adjustable tools doesn't offer a tighter grip. They sure do, provided you have a good one and not one from the local discounter. Even if it could in theory just feel the part that is adjustable - you can almost always ruck it back and forth, just a bit but nonetheless. Yes, but that sliver is much smaller than with a regular sized fixed wrench. Also the adjustable wrench is often used in a careless manner. People don't adjust it to perfection before they pull! Ya well, if people use them as hammers and such the work result will usually show it. No, fixed keys are the best and in particular the ring side (closed end) of the combination spanner as that pulls on all sides of a hex bolt or nut. For most situations I use fixed wrenches but not when if has to be super snug. However, as I said I have a few really high-quality adjustable wrenches. The smaller cheaper ones are more for emergencies. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ If adjustable wrenches are so dang great then why do repair shops spend thousands of dollars on wrenches designed to fit the fastener? Two reasons. a. They are just fine for most standard situations because the head of the screw or the nut is designed to withstand a slight oversize in the wrench at max permissible torque. b. It's faster. They must mind mechanics times. I don't. Cheers Actually wrenches and nuts and bolts aren't designed so that the wrench is a press fit onto the fastener since that would mean that in order to fit the wrench to the fastener it would have to be in perfect alignment. Hardly practical in a working environment. Nor is some mythical "perfect fit" necessary as fasteners are designed to be tightened or loosened using conventional tools and the size of the hexagon head or nut provides sufficient flat length to avoid the wrench slipping and rounding the corners. In fact, using conventional wrenches it is quite easy to actually break the shank of a fastener without damaging the head at all. But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool the use of proper tools is probably a mystery. Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult. - Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#13
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Shimano Headset
On 2017-05-10 16:00, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Joerg wrote: Even if it could in theory just feel the part that is adjustable - you can almost always ruck it back and forth, just a bit but nonetheless. Yes, but that sliver is much smaller than with a regular sized fixed wrench. Perhaps the size of the nut is of importance here. For example, with adjustable wrenches when you pull a small item it sometimes happens that item gets tilted and stuck in the wrench. This never happened to me with the fixed sizes. Then you seriously need a better quality adjustable wrench. Or not use it. But it is logical that adjustable wrenches pull tighter so at some level of quality and carefull work they should surpass anything fixed... In practice, on a typical bike. Say 8 and 10 mm for details. 13 for the saddle and 14 or 15 for the dome nuts. If you leave any normal person with this bike and fixed keys the work will be many times as good and much faster. Remember, it is not just pulling, it is also HOLDING while pulling at the same time. For those I'd never use adjustable. I did a mod to the MTB yesterday and everything was less than the equivalent of about 14mm. When it comes to very recalcitrant bottom brackets that have been in there for years or decades that quickly becomes another story. There a high-quality adjustable wrench set very snugly can win the day. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#14
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Shimano Headset
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 3:06:56 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2017 10:47:10 +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote: John B. wrote: In fact, using conventional wrenches it is quite easy to actually break the shank of a fastener without damaging the head at all. Fixed wrenches do not damage the head. They are faster, more reliable and more ergonomic than adjustable wrenches and I dare say they pull tighter or as tight in practice, using them all day long. It is possible in a test lab for a single bolt it is possible to show an adjustable wrench pulls tighter but in practice it is actually the adjustable wrench that will round the corners as the mechanic will get tired and make mistakes. And one source of him/her getting tired will be having to adjust the wrench all the time There used to be a "rule of thumb" to always use an adjustable wrench so that the force is against the fixed jaw. I have proved this rule myself. I was squatting down tightening the bolts that held a large vise to a bench. The wrench didn't fit in its proper orientation so I flipped it over and pushed against the movable jaw. I proved, at least to my own satisfaction, that (1) an adjustable wrench used in this manner will slip, and (2) a broken nose Hurts! -- Cheers, John B. The "pulling" force. The rule actally was to always use an adjustable wrench so that the adjustable jaw is used in compression. |
#15
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Shimano Headset
Joerg wrote:
Then you seriously need a better quality adjustable wrench. Or not use it. The smaller the item, the bigger the problem with the silver mentioned earlier. I suppose this is where the tilt occurs. But I get it there are different sizes of adjustable wrenches as well. I have several. The smallest I have is very small and it is called a "zero zero". I don't know if this is an international convention. Like the "smallest" is a zero, so something that is even smaller becomes a zero zero... For those I'd never use adjustable. I did a mod to the MTB yesterday and everything was less than the equivalent of about 14mm. When it comes to very recalcitrant bottom brackets that have been in there for years or decades that quickly becomes another story. There a high-quality adjustable wrench set very snugly can win the day. I don't recall opening a BB with either but I do have a 30 mm combination spanner which I use for the lock ring on the handlebar tube whenever that is hex and not hook spanner... -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#16
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Shimano Headset
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool the use of proper tools is probably a mystery. Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult. - Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a chain-breaker. That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it? For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU. To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up. Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short distance. Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers are used to fix a chain. Cheers |
#17
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Shimano Headset
On 2017-05-12 08:23, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: Snipped But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool the use of proper tools is probably a mystery. Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult. - Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a chain-breaker. Most? Most cyclists don't even carry a first aid kit and that is way more important than a chain breaker tool. I have used mine multiple times. Never for myself. Still debating with myself whether to schlepp the CPR mask. It's light but adds volume. ... That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it? For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU. I usually only carry tools where there is hardly any alternative. For breaking a chain there is. To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up. Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short distance. So why did they never fail? ... Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers are used to fix a chain. I might get one of those. One of these days, as grandpa Kettle would have said. If I find a really tiny one on sale for a good price. I might even consider a new headset for the road bike. Maybe :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#18
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Shimano Headset
On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 9:36:32 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-05-12 08:23, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: Snipped But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool the use of proper tools is probably a mystery. Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult. - Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a chain-breaker. Most? Most cyclists don't even carry a first aid kit and that is way more important than a chain breaker tool. I have used mine multiple times. Never for myself. Still debating with myself whether to schlepp the CPR mask. It's light but adds volume. ... That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it? For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU. I usually only carry tools where there is hardly any alternative. For breaking a chain there is. To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up. Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short distance. So why did they never fail? ... Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers are used to fix a chain. I might get one of those. One of these days, as grandpa Kettle would have said. If I find a really tiny one on sale for a good price. I might even consider a new headset for the road bike. Maybe :-) When was the last time you needed a CPR mask? When was the last time you needed a chain tool? Hmmm. Seems to be an easy choice, no? If you find a lifeless person on the trail -- in the middle of nowhere with the mountain lions circling -- remember that you will have to do compressions until the helicopter arrives. Now consider this: http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/5/3/e002819 You're probably better off sitting down and writing a condolence letter. OR, you could get a super light-weight AED (assuming the dead guy had V-fib and wasn't totally dead). http://www.aed.com/philips-heartstar...FVJbfgodvGkHNQ I think Nashbar has one that comes in a seat pack. You could also get one of these: https://ideasinspiringinnovation.fil...ce_kenya-2.jpg Plus, if you witness a riding companion going down and dying, you can just do compressions these days -- which is kind of mind-boggling. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056...00005253422101 https://lifeinthefastlane.com/ccc/compression-only-cpr/ Or, you can choose to ride with companions who do not have communicable diseases and on whose mouths you are not afraid to perform mouth-to-mouth, obviating the need for a special mask. Ride with some of those women from Muzi's body-paint link. -- Jay Beattie. |
#19
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Shimano Headset
On Fri, 12 May 2017 08:23:02 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: Snipped But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool the use of proper tools is probably a mystery. Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult. - Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a chain-breaker. That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it? For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU. To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up. Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short distance. Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers are used to fix a chain. Cheers Out of curiosity I weighed and measured the chain tool that I carry in my bike tool kit. It is 2-1/2 inches in length and 2-1/8 inches in height. 1/2 inch thick, at its thickest, and weighs 2.6 ounces. It works with chains up to and including 10 speed chains (I don't own an 11 speed). Frankly, as a broken chain immobilizes the bicycle I can see no logic in not carrying it. -- Cheers, John B. |
#20
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Shimano Headset
On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 6:57:35 AM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2017 08:23:02 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: Snipped But then, to one who habitually uses a nail and a rock as a chain tool the use of proper tools is probably a mystery. Try to differentiate between an outdoors emergency situation and the workshop in the garage. It's not that difficult. - Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Which is hy mose of us carry a small tool repair kit that includes a chain-breaker. That way a broken chain isn't an ememrgency and a repair only takes a few seconds. After all seconds count when you're beig stalked by mountain lions or other hungry critters doesn't it? For someone who either breaks chains a lot or often comes across people with a broken chain (bother very rare where I ride even on the technical trails) it ONLY makes sense to have a chain breaker and spare link(s)and quick-link WITH YOU. To be honest using a rock and rusty nail to repair a chain in the field sounds like something an armchair bicyclist would think up. Such a repaired chain would most likely fail again after only a short distance. Believe it or not there's good reasons why chain breakers are used to fix a chain. Cheers Out of curiosity I weighed and measured the chain tool that I carry in my bike tool kit. It is 2-1/2 inches in length and 2-1/8 inches in height. 1/2 inch thick, at its thickest, and weighs 2.6 ounces. It works with chains up to and including 10 speed chains (I don't own an 11 speed). Frankly, as a broken chain immobilizes the bicycle I can see no logic in not carrying it. -- Cheers, John B. Whether I carry a chaintool is the result of the probability a chain breaks multiplied with the severity of the consequences when it happens. The outcome for me is off road I carry one, on my roadbikes I don't. This applies for all tools. Lou |
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