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Iban Mayo is LA's only challenger



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 16th 03, 12:21 AM
Kurgan Gringioni
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Default Iban Mayo is LA's only challenger


"Todd Kuzma" wrote in message
...
Benjamin Weiner wrote:

Lemond's moral victories don't count. Counterfactuals are
hypothetical: we don't know if his condition in 1990 would have been
the same had he ridden 87 and 88. Merckx got punched, Hinault had an
injury, Bartali or Coppi are the best counter examples IMO. However,
several people _could_ have done it, but for a variety of reasons -
bad luck, injury, wars, age creeping up on them, nobody _has_ done it.


What is amazing about winning the Tour 5 times is the number
of things stacked against you. Fitness and preparation is
not enough. You have to avoid crashes, illness, bad luck,
etc. Look at how many riders have had to drop out so far
due to illness or injury. To win 5 times without any of
those things happening to you is tough.




That may be true of 5 in a row, but considering that 4 people have done it
in the last 50 years is evidence that in every generation there *should* be
someone who wins 5 (total).


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  #22  
Old July 16th 03, 01:19 AM
Tom Schulenburg
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Default Iban Mayo is LA's only challenger


"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message . ..

"Todd Kuzma" wrote in message
...
Benjamin Weiner wrote:

Lemond's moral victories don't count. Counterfactuals are
hypothetical: we don't know if his condition in 1990 would have been
the same had he ridden 87 and 88. Merckx got punched, Hinault had an
injury, Bartali or Coppi are the best counter examples IMO. However,
several people _could_ have done it, but for a variety of reasons -
bad luck, injury, wars, age creeping up on them, nobody _has_ done it.


What is amazing about winning the Tour 5 times is the number
of things stacked against you. Fitness and preparation is
not enough. You have to avoid crashes, illness, bad luck,
etc. Look at how many riders have had to drop out so far
due to illness or injury. To win 5 times without any of
those things happening to you is tough.




That may be true of 5 in a row, but considering that 4 people have done it
in the last 50 years is evidence that in every generation there *should*

be
someone who wins 5 (total).



In 1978 there had been 10 winners of horse racing's triple crown in the
previous 50 years. 25 years later there hasn't been another. In spite of the
number of 5 time winners in the last 50 years, I would think that it's
harder to repeat / win 5 tours. Competition is tougher, team tactics play a
bigger role, etc.

-T


  #23  
Old July 16th 03, 01:38 AM
Kurgan Gringioni
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Default Iban Mayo is LA's only challenger


"Tom Schulenburg" wrote in message
...

That may be true of 5 in a row, but considering that 4 people have done

it
in the last 50 years is evidence that in every generation there *should*

be
someone who wins 5 (total).

In 1978 there had been 10 winners of horse racing's triple crown in the
previous 50 years. 25 years later there hasn't been another. In spite of

the
number of 5 time winners in the last 50 years, I would think that it's
harder to repeat / win 5 tours. Competition is tougher, team tactics play

a
bigger role, etc.




Dumbass, look at the evidence.

Indurain wins 5 in a row. LANCE wins 4 in a row and counting. All in the
last 12 years.


  #26  
Old July 16th 03, 06:09 AM
David Ryan
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Default Iban Mayo is LA's only challenger

Russ Baxter wrote:

Benjamin Weiner wrote in message ...

I think he wins, but proves the axiom that it is physiologically
impossible to win six Tours.


Impossible!? For the sake of argument, Greg Lemond (if he were member
of a different team) was capable of winning in 1985. Then he wins in
86, gets shot so he misses 87 and 88 and wins again in 89 and 90. I'd
say that's six years of physiological possibility.


Ullrich could have won in 96. Did win in 97.
Then shoots himself in the foot in 98, 99, 00, 01, 02...
  #27  
Old July 16th 03, 06:57 AM
Isidor Gunsberg
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Default Iban Mayo is LA's only challenger

Benjamin Weiner wrote in message ...
Russ Baxter wrote:
Benjamin Weiner wrote


I think he wins, but proves the axiom that it is physiologically
impossible to win six Tours.


Impossible!? For the sake of argument, Greg Lemond (if he were member
of a different team) was capable of winning in 1985. Then he wins in
86, gets shot so he misses 87 and 88 and wins again in 89 and 90. I'd
say that's six years of physiological possibility.


I know it's a crock, I just like the idea.

Lemond's moral victories don't count. Counterfactuals are
hypothetical: we don't know if his condition in 1990 would have been
the same had he ridden 87 and 88. Merckx got punched, Hinault had an
injury, Bartali or Coppi are the best counter examples IMO. However,
several people _could_ have done it, but for a variety of reasons -
bad luck, injury, wars, age creeping up on them, nobody _has_ done it.



Does Lemond's "Moral Victory" of 1985 entail that Hinault's
actual victory that year ought to be reckoned as a "Moral defeat"?
Should there be an asterisk next to Hinault's 5th win in the TDF?

If Lemond had not gotten shot after the 1986 Tour, he would have
had good chances to win in 1987 & 1988. Also, I recall reading that
some of the shot pellets were still lodged in Lemond's body, and that
had a deleterious effect on his stamina, hindering his chances to beat
Indurain in the subsequent years of 1991 and 1992. At any rate, there
can be little doubt that a Lemond who had NOT been shot , but HAD
raced in 1987 & 1988, would have still been in better shape in 1990
etc., that he actually was as events transpired.

Of course, Lemond set a record of sorts, by winning one tour
without managing to win a single stage. Frankly, I don't have much
sympathy for people who get shot while hunting. Lemond made some bad
career choices, allowing himself to get seduced by the prospects of
riding for Hinault's premier French team. Had he played his cards
perfectly, and managed to avoid getting shot by his Brother-In-Law, he
might have been able to win 7 or 8 Tours.

As it is, other riders have suffered even greater misfortune, and
three wins in the TDF is something that every rider would envy.
  #29  
Old July 16th 03, 10:51 AM
Benjamin Weiner
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Default Iban Mayo is LA's only challenger

Isidor Gunsberg wrote:

Lemond's moral victories don't count. Counterfactuals are
hypothetical:


Does Lemond's "Moral Victory" of 1985 entail that Hinault's
actual victory that year ought to be reckoned as a "Moral defeat"?
Should there be an asterisk next to Hinault's 5th win in the TDF?


Moral victory was Lemond's phrase, not mine. It was widely derided
here at the time. I may be a little too tall to be a great climber,
but surely had I grown up in Belgium and known there was such a thing
as bicycle racing when I was a kid, I could have taken it up before
becoming an old fart - thus I consider myself a moral victor of the
Ronde van Vlaanderen. That's why counterfactuals don't count.

  #30  
Old July 16th 03, 12:18 PM
Russ Baxter
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Default Iban Mayo is LA's only challenger

I wasn't arguing that he should have or could have won, only that he
was physiologically capable of winning over a six year period.


Benjamin Weiner wrote in message ...
Russ Baxter wrote:
Benjamin Weiner wrote


I think he wins, but proves the axiom that it is physiologically
impossible to win six Tours.


Impossible!? For the sake of argument, Greg Lemond (if he were member
of a different team) was capable of winning in 1985. Then he wins in
86, gets shot so he misses 87 and 88 and wins again in 89 and 90. I'd
say that's six years of physiological possibility.


I know it's a crock, I just like the idea.

Lemond's moral victories don't count. Counterfactuals are
hypothetical: we don't know if his condition in 1990 would have been
the same had he ridden 87 and 88. Merckx got punched, Hinault had an
injury, Bartali or Coppi are the best counter examples IMO. However,
several people _could_ have done it, but for a variety of reasons -
bad luck, injury, wars, age creeping up on them, nobody _has_ done it.

 




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