Torygraph argues that driving crime is not real crime...

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
dwb wrote:

Mr Darling announced, a ouple of months ago, an average 40% drop in
casualties at speed camera sites.

Casualties does not equal deaths.

I find this really hard to accept.

"Yes, Mrs Miggins, we know that there are gangs of youths roaming the
town centre and terrorising the populace, but we're not allowed to do
anything about it until they have killed four people within a two
year period."

Imagine the outcry!

When the terrorising is done by middle aged men in suits, it is
apparently a grievous assault on our civil liberties to require them
to obey the law of the land.

Most odd.

Guy

It's not really like that though Guy. When I said casualties does not equal
deaths I meant that in terms of statistics, being taken off to hospital with
a broken ankle is seen in the same light as a 'serious injury/death'.

I'm not saying that an injury should be ignored, but there is a world of
(real world) difference between breaking an ankle and being on life support.

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:53:29 +0100, "dwb"
wrote (more or less):

David Martin wrote:

Driving too fast for the conditions is still speeding, whether or not
it exceeds the maximum posted limit. It is not the offence of
exceeding the posted speed limit but is still an offence.

argumentative

What about cycling too fast for the conditions?

/a

The answer is to cycle less 'furiously'.


--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
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dwb wrote:

Well yes - but shouldn't you be equally legislated against, to protect
yourself and others?

ie. what's good for the goose, must be good for the gander.

"yes but", with the "but" being that cyclists don't actually kill very
many people aside from themselves in a typical year. About 3 orders of
magnitude less than drivers manage, IIRC, so "equally legislated
against", which implies an equal danger, could reasonably be construed
as unfair.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Gawnsoft wrote:
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:41:35 +0100, "dwb"
wrote (more or less):

Nick Kew wrote:
In article ,
(Howard) writes:

Hi folks,

Ho!

Speeding motorists kill more people in the UK than all other
criminals combined. Case closed?

What about smoking then - Shall we have a little jihad about that?

Let me know when smokers kill 3,000 people a year other than
themselves.

Do we know how many people killed by speeding motorists are not themselves?

(IIRC, being around a smoker is equivalent about 1/10 of a smoker's
worth.)

--
Melanie xxx

Gawnsoft wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:53:29 +0100, "dwb"
wrote (more or less):

David Martin wrote:

Driving too fast for the conditions is still speeding, whether or
not it exceeds the maximum posted limit. It is not the offence of
exceeding the posted speed limit but is still an offence.

argumentative

What about cycling too fast for the conditions?

/a

The answer is to cycle less 'furiously'.

okay - as is the answer "to drive slower"

But as pointed out, they don't always work, so what I'm trying to argue is
that if we legislate against one, should we not (to varying degrees granted)
legislate against the other?

Howard fumed:
Hi folks,

Interesting leader in today's Torygraph.

snip

Statistics. These are things that normal people have no understanding of,
relying instead on the media for their interpretation. Statistics are
produced by real people, with real jobs, who are anxious for promotion and a
continuing workload. Thus none of these now quasi-governmental bodies will
prodce anything that differs from a pre-agreed agenda. They are therefore
about as valid as a horoscope.

Speed Cameras. These have produced a chasm between two sections of society,
both of which are angry with, and uncomprehending of, the other. This
brooding resentment of the other group is making us, as a nation, more angry
and intolerant. Using statistics to justify this downward spiral in the
general 'mood' is ridiculous and self-defeating. Technology is turning us
against each other, and I hate that.

If the referee had allowed that penalty we would have won the match. Not
necessarily. Winning would have been more likely, but how much more likely
is completely unquantifiable.

--
Despite appearances, it is still legal to put sugar on cornflakes.

Peter Clinch wrote:
dwb wrote:

Well yes - but shouldn't you be equally legislated against, to
protect yourself and others?

ie. what's good for the goose, must be good for the gander.

"yes but", with the "but" being that cyclists don't actually kill very
many people aside from themselves in a typical year.

Motorcyclists have been trying that same argument... :-)

About 3 orders
of magnitude less than drivers manage, IIRC, so "equally legislated
against", which implies an equal danger, could reasonably be construed
as unfair.

Fair enough.

zzapper wrote:
On 22 Aug 2004 02:53:52 -0700, wrote:

Hi
I'm a car driver,cyclist and walker (in that order)

I'm perplexed that the Guardians of Public Order, Morality &
Prurience (ie the Tory Papers) have a persistent campaign against
speed limits (sorry that's what it comes down to). Perhaps it's
because their very rich editors have country retreats and want to
speed thru our country villages to get home.

What's good about speed limits:-

Safer for kids,dogs, pedestrians and cyclists
Less car/tyre noise for locals:-
Accidents less catastrophic,
Car drivers get to the end of their journey less tired and stressed.
Better for car/environment
In many cases greater throughput of traffic.

I think you are confusing speed limits with driving speed. None of those
things are directly influenced by the limit, but by the speed.

Speed limits can be seen as a challenge or a target. I know someone who
feels very inadequate as a driver if they don't achieve the maximum allowed
speed at all times, whether it is safe or not.

With NO limit there would be NO macho satisfaction to be gained.

BTW the hypocrites want to have lower speed limits outside schools
KNOWING that very few Schools actually have entrances onto main roads.


zzapper (vim, cygwin, wiki & zsh)

--
Melanie xxx

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:16:25 +0100, "dwb"
wrote (more or less):

Gawnsoft wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:53:29 +0100, "dwb"
wrote (more or less):

David Martin wrote:

Driving too fast for the conditions is still speeding, whether or
not it exceeds the maximum posted limit. It is not the offence of
exceeding the posted speed limit but is still an offence.

argumentative

What about cycling too fast for the conditions?

/a

The answer is to cycle less 'furiously'.

okay - as is the answer "to drive slower"

But as pointed out, they don't always work, so what I'm trying to argue is
that if we legislate against one, should we not (to varying degrees granted)
legislate against the other?

Why? Typical cycle speeds are /already/ severely limited by the power
limits on the 'engine'.

And there are already statutory limits on motor assistance for pedal
bikes, both for power output and for speed (15mph).


--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Gawnsoft wrote:

okay - as is the answer "to drive slower"

But as pointed out, they don't always work, so what I'm trying to
argue is that if we legislate against one, should we not (to varying
degrees granted) legislate against the other?

Why? Typical cycle speeds are /already/ severely limited by the power
limits on the 'engine'.

But those typical speeds are still more than capable of causing death or
injury.

If everyone who drove a car got on a bicycle, do you think the accidents
would disappear?

And there are already statutory limits on motor assistance for pedal
bikes, both for power output and for speed (15mph).

Lots of occasions where 15mph might be inappropriate.