#71
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handlebar
On 1/14/2018 5:06 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:32:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/14/2018 2:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:38:48 +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote: Take one piece of aluminium and one piece of stainless steel and hold it in ur hand - they must be the same size, you can feel the weight different: aluminium is much lighter, while stainless is much heavier. It depends on the type of stainless steel. Exotic alloys, complex heat treatment, and a lengthy annealing process, will produce a stainless steel that is quite strong and suitable for bicycle frames (and by implication, handlebars): http://www.kvastainless.com/tubing-info.html http://www.kvastainless.com/bicycles/ http://www.kvastainless.com/technical-library.html That's a precipitation hardening stainless steel. That's _very_ exotic stuff. It may be a pain in the posterior to heat treat, with the steel at 480C-800C for 4 hours waiting for a precipitate to form, but methinks it's becoming more common, available, and possibly affordable: http://www.outokumpu.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Outokumpu-martensitic-grade-630-data-sheet.pdf 17-4 PH stainless (also known as UNS S17400 or SAE T-630) seems to be available in various flavors: http://www.matweb.com/search/quicktext.aspx?SearchText=UNS+S17400%20stainless http://www.matweb.com/search/QuickText.aspx?SearchText=17-4%20stainless for a multitude of mundane applications: https://www.tubehollows.com/alloys/stainless-steels/17-4 "...alloy 17-4 PH is a superb choice for structural components of airplanes, biomedical hand tools, food processing equipment, pulp and paper mill processing and nuclear waste processing and storage." The tubing is supplied as "solution treated" at moderate hardness, which can be machined and possibly hydroformed into components. Once that's done, a simple low temperature heat treatment (age hardening) brings it up to full strength. There's also 17-7 PH which seems to more appropriate for tubing: https://www.tubehollows.com/alloys/stainless-steels/17-7 No clue on the cost of such a 17-4 PH frame or handlebar: http://www.kvastainless.com/inox-bicycles.html Mo "The Surge of Stainless Steel" https://roadbikeaction.com/features/rba-features/the-surge-of-stainless-steel http://www.bobbrowncycles.com/stainless_frames.htm https://www.google.com/search?q=stainless+steel+bicycle+frame&tbm=isch From the dreamy adspeak: Stainless steel's ride can be "crisper" and "snappier." Is that better than "rigid, yet compliant"? -- - Frank Krygowski |
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#72
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handlebar
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:42:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: From the dreamy adspeak: Stainless steel's ride can be "crisper" and "snappier." Are you sure those terms weren't in a breakfast cereal advertisement? Remind me to steal those terms for my personal abuse. A better question would be crisper or snappier than what? When comparing the quality of a ride, it's considered good form to disclose with what one is comparing the ride. Also, how much crisper or snappier? A tiny, average, or jumbo size difference? Is that better than "rigid, yet compliant"? Nope. They're all "puffery" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery which is the use of advertising comparisons and superlatives that no sane person would accept at face value. As a minimum, if one cannot attach a numerical measurement to the term, it's puffery. At least rigidity (stiffness) can be measured as force divided by displacement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiffness -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#73
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handlebar
On 15/01/18 10:42, Frank Krygowski wrote:
From the dreamy adspeak: Stainless steel's ride can be "crisper" and "snappier." Is that better than "rigid, yet compliant"? Polished stainless can certainly *look* crisp and snappy. -- JS |
#74
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handlebar
Frank Krygowski wrote:
All correct. We should add, magnetic vs. non-magnetic is not really a binary situation. There are materials that are weakly magnetic, others that are strongly magnetic, etc. Right, I noticed that on my little stroll with the magnet stick. But of course I couldn't determine if this was a property of the base material and/or some protective coating. I suppose paint is to thin to interfere... There was also a coating of frost which again, shouldn't influence BTW I've heard that if you paint the ocean on a globe, it is impossible to apply a layer of paint so thin as to be representative of the ocean's "depth"... I'm still wondering why the handlebar material is so important to you. Is it just a curiosity thing? (Curiosity is generally good, of course.) It all started with a guy saying his bar broke but after that it is simply how the brain works, you do something you start to think about it, then you think about that, which leads to the next thing, and so on. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#75
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handlebar
How can I examine a bar, be it steel,
stainless steel, aluminium, or CFRP, to find out its state of disintegration, if any? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#76
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handlebar
On 1/15/2018 2:46 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
How can I examine a bar, be it steel, stainless steel, aluminium, or CFRP, to find out its state of disintegration, if any? I quote the great metallurgist Yogi Berra on this, "You can see a lot by just looking." -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#77
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handlebar
On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 11:05:55 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:23:08 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute wrote: On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 7:01:32 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote: Ferro-chrome ore (which contains about 50-75% chromium), sells for $2.80/kg (Oct 2017 prices). http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/ferro-chrome/ while iron ore runs about $0.30/kg. http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/iron-ore-fines/ Very roughly, that would make 20% Chromium stainless cost about $5.00/kg, while a simple high carbon steel, would be about 1/10th the prices of stainless. Wrong viewpoint, I think, Jeff. Please note the "Very roughly" prefix, which acts as repudiation of responsibility and disclaimer should I have screwed up the math. In this case, I totally ignored any material or labor costs incurred beyond the base materials. I also lacked a usable price comparison between finished frames in steel and high strength stainless steel. I don't think you'll find a direct comparison of identical frames except if you go to a custom builder like Uwe Marchall, who the last time I looked would give you a choice on many of his designs in Noblex stainless and several other steels. I remembering thinking that in his price list back then you could see how much more labour is involved in building a stainless frame, because that was basically eight- or nine-tenths of what you were paying for. At the bottom of this page you'll find a link to his price list: http://www.marschall-framework.de/produkte/ Observably bikes in bicycle-type butted tubes of stainless steel don't cost ten or however many times as much as a bike in other alloys of steel made to the same pattern by the same maker. True. Please change "would be about 1/10th the price of stainless" to "would be about 1/10th the materials cost of stainless". I went into this when I was trying to get my smalltube frame design built, when I discovered that stainless could in fact be a cheap option compared to some aeronautics-grade mild steels. Hmmm... sounds like a good idea. You could then advertise the small diameter tubing as "low aerodynamic drag". Incidentally, I've recently taken up knife sharpening, which led me to knife making. That has forced me to do some reading on metallurgy, heat treating, machining practices, etc. At this point, it's all a big muddle to me, but I'm slowing beginning to sort things out. Oddly, much has changed in the last half century. This is interesting. For Christmas my family gave me gear and tools and consumptibleps to set up as an intaglio and block printmaker: a geared flatbed press, woodblock and lino cutters from Pheil in Switzerland, and drypoint and mezzotint tools from various Spanish firms (Artools, Arteina, Reig) I really don't know why the best tools come from Spain) the E C Lyons in the States -- also rollers, paints, barens etc, several boxes full that I'm sorting into smaller sets by function, but the important thing here is the tools, some tempered, hardened, special alloys, etc, because may of the tools must cut other metals, the roulettes for instance (they're knurled wheels on a handle to quickly draw parallel lines or hatching on copper, zinc or plastic plates). The tools also include a set of traditional woodblock cutters from Japan, made by the famous Yoshiharu cutlery firm (probably more of a large boutique workshop than any Western idea of a huge factory) in a blend of soft and hard steels hammered together, the tough steel part taking and holding the bevel; Pheil also claims special alloys and house secrets in the processing. So, I'm interested. When you conclude your survey, write a little something to place here, or better still on my blog, or at least give me a link to the best source of information. Your reward will be in another place (as a famous editor once said to me when I asked for more money -- and his secretary from the next room called out, "That's a very doubtful proposition.") (1) There was a third maker of stainless tube sets for bicycles just starting up about ten, twelve years ago when I was taking an interest. I don't know whether they ever made much of a mark. Ummm... Columbus XCr perhaps? http://www.columbustubi.com/eng/3_3.htm Not Columbus; I would have remembered as my Utopia Kranich is made of custom Columbus steel tubes and lugs. The firm I'm referring to was brandnew and intended entering the bicycle market with their first and only product, stainless steel tubes. I thought at the time it was a business school recipe for a case study in self-inflicted failure. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 Andre Jute Teflon intellectual |
#78
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AMuzi wrote:
How can I examine a bar, be it steel, stainless steel, aluminium, or CFRP, to find out its state of disintegration, if any? I quote the great metallurgist Yogi Berra on this, "You can see a lot by just looking." OK, Yogi Berra perhaps wasn't a metallurgist but good quote all the same. So unless there is visible damage the assumption is everything is OK. Makes sense to me. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#79
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handlebar
On 1/14/2018 4:26 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Are you sure those terms weren't in a breakfast cereal advertisement? Remind me to steal those terms for my personal abuse. I think that stainless steel is smoother, but not snappier or crisper. |
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