spoke length?

2.0 Spokes for my MO Monodog 29er's wheels are MO too long, again.

The wheel is laced on a dishing beam, hub centered, nipples seated but
not tightened.

So I have the average measurements from edge of spoke hub hole to
inside rim at the rim eyelet.

Using 6mm nipples, the spokes should be cut to the measurement to the
eyelet, 1mm short of the eyelet or 2 mm short of the eyelet ?

What is common practice here for a measurement that will account for
spoke stretch, taking up spoke bend, and hub hole wear?

datakoll wrote:
2.0 Spokes for my MO Monodog 29er's wheels are MO too long, again.

The wheel is laced on a dishing beam, hub centered, nipples seated but
not tightened.

So I have the average measurements from edge of spoke hub hole

eh? you need the hub dimensions, then the rim dimensions, the spoke
count, then the spoke crossing pattern. the hub spoke circle diameter
should be to the center of the spoke hole. calculate from there.
calculation options include doing the math yourself, letting damon
rinard do it for you, or letting someone like d.t. do it for you.

to
inside rim at the rim eyelet.

use the published manufacturer erd.


Using 6mm nipples, the spokes should be cut to the measurement to the
eyelet, 1mm short of the eyelet or 2 mm short of the eyelet ?

i prefer to the bottom of the spoke nipple screwdriver slot.


What is common practice here for a measurement that will account for
spoke stretch, taking up spoke bend, and hub hole wear?

for 2.0mm spokes, stretch is negligible. the rest comes out in the wash
when you use the rinard solution. but it's garbage in, garbage out.
you need to make sure your input data is precise and correct.

On Jan 30, 10:04*pm, jim beam wrote:
datakoll wrote:
2.0 Spokes for my MO Monodog 29er's wheels are MO too long, again.

The wheel is laced on a dishing beam, hub centered, nipples seated but
not tightened.

So I have the average measurements from edge of spoke hub hole

eh? *you need the hub dimensions, then the rim dimensions, the spoke
count, then the spoke crossing pattern. *the hub spoke circle diameter
should be to the center of the spoke hole. *calculate from there.
calculation options include doing the math yourself, letting damon
rinard do it for you, or letting someone like d.t. do it for you.

to
inside rim at the rim eyelet.

use the published manufacturer erd.



Using 6mm nipples, *the spokes should be cut to the measurement to the
eyelet, 1mm short of the eyelet or 2 mm short of the eyelet ?

i prefer to the bottom of the spoke nipple screwdriver slot.



What is common practice here for a measurement that will account for
spoke stretch, taking up spoke bend, and hub hole wear?

for 2.0mm spokes, stretch is negligible. *the rest comes out in the wash
when you use the rinard solution. *but it's garbage in, garbage out.
you need to make sure your input data is precise and correct.

no, real life setup on the dishing beam is more accurate and reliable.
The spokes are here, the wheel is real, why use math-or why use
incorrect inputs into the equation.

spoke math, in the current problem of too long mail order spokes,
seems to give a math answer. The math answer may be correct but itsa
not gonna build the wheel. The math Mall Oder spokes tighten down as
the nipples seat onto the eyelets outside dim-ension.

Great math and off to Puget Sound in the Spruce Goose.

Prior attempts at MalOder spokes were fumbled by clac software. For an
as yet unexplained reason, clac software insists on single wall rim
diameters when the operator is typing double wall rim dimenesion into
the computer?

you prefer what to the bottom of the spoke slot? the end of the spoke
when fully torqued down? Rinard is giving you that dimension? I don't
believe that ans it sounds like something JB would start a parade on.
Rocket Science spoke lengths. Sure, when you find a rocket scientist
is a bike warehouse cutting Maul Odor spokes or a rocket science spoke
measurement device. A 303mm in a batch of 36 will vary 1.5 either way.
Then what? And don't say filum down.

No way! no room for error, dents, bashes, or hole wear.

and I don't know where Shimano hid standard dimensions.

If you use the math, it's possible the math isn't giving you real life
dimensions, but how would you know that? Rinard et al doesn't let on
to it do they?

My standard from scratch method became buy 8 spokes from an eyeball/
tape measure with moderate experience and set up the wheel on dishing
beam after the odor came in backwards, again.

also, 5mm of thread mate works ok. No complaints. So why go for Rocket
Science and a full thread engagment? when the potential for running
out of room is at hand.

More JB, torque the rim until you break it then back of a little.
No point to it.

datakoll wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:04�pm, jim beam wrote:
datakoll wrote:
2.0 Spokes for my MO Monodog 29er's wheels are MO too long, again.
The wheel is laced on a dishing beam, hub centered, nipples seated but
not tightened.
So I have the average measurements from edge of spoke hub hole
eh? �you need the hub dimensions, then the rim dimensions, the spoke
count, then the spoke crossing pattern. �the hub spoke circle diameter
should be to the center of the spoke hole. �calculate from there.
calculation options include doing the math yourself, letting damon
rinard do it for you, or letting someone like d.t. do it for you.

to
inside rim at the rim eyelet.
use the published manufacturer erd.



Using 6mm nipples, �the spokes should be cut to the measurement to the
eyelet, 1mm short of the eyelet or 2 mm short of the eyelet ?
i prefer to the bottom of the spoke nipple screwdriver slot.



What is common practice here for a measurement that will account for
spoke stretch, taking up spoke bend, and hub hole wear?
for 2.0mm spokes, stretch is negligible. �the rest comes out in the wash
when you use the rinard solution. �but it's garbage in, garbage out.
you need to make sure your input data is precise and correct.

no, real life setup on the dishing beam is more accurate and reliable.

but you've just proven that not to be true!


The spokes are here, the wheel is real, why use math-or why use
incorrect inputs into the equation.

because it gives you the correct result first time, every time. there
is a reason the math exists. see above!



spoke math, in the current problem of too long mail order spokes,
seems to give a math answer. The math answer may be correct but itsa
not gonna build the wheel. snip

then the math is not being used correctly. garbage in, garbage out.

On 2008-01-31, datakoll wrote:

2.0 Spokes for my MO Monodog 29er's wheels are MO too long, again.

The wheel is laced on a dishing beam, hub centered, nipples seated but
not tightened.

So I have the average measurements from edge of spoke hub hole to
inside rim at the rim eyelet.

Using 6mm nipples, the spokes should be cut to the measurement to the
eyelet, 1mm short of the eyelet or 2 mm short of the eyelet ?

I think the math those of us who do the math do is based on making the
spoke exactly the ERD length.

The ERD is I think the distance to where the nipple sits in the rim.

So based on that you don't want 1mm short or 2mm short but 0mm short.

But a mm or two doesn't matter. I usually find the spokes come quite
far up the nipples such that you can't do final tightening with a
screwdriver from the top because the end of the spoke is in the way.

But the LBS I bought spokes from only stocked even numbers of mm, and
math predicted an odd number, so I got them officially 1mm too long to
start with.

Are nipples threaded all the way to the bottom anyway? You don't want
the spokes too short.

What is common practice here for a measurement that will account for
spoke stretch, taking up spoke bend, and hub hole wear?

Stretch and bend should be almost nothing. Hub hole wear, perhaps that
could mean 1mm less in an extreme case? No need to worry about it. 1mm
either way is no problem.

jim beam Wrote:
...then the math is not being used correctly. garbage in, garbage out.

I'll happily trust the math itself, but sometimes it can be a real PITA
to track down the real dimensions, particularly when there are
conficting numbers available. A hub is no big deal to measure, but a rim
is more awkward.
If you have the stuff at hand I suppose it's reasonably doable, but if
you want to place an order for both hub, rim and spokes simultaneously
it can be a real nuisance.


--
dabac

what's proven is:
the theoreticians aren't building wheels
have poor memories
can't answer the question

dabac wrote:
jim beam Wrote:
...then the math is not being used correctly. garbage in, garbage out.

I'll happily trust the math itself, but sometimes it can be a real PITA
to track down the real dimensions, particularly when there are
conficting numbers available. A hub is no big deal to measure, but a rim
is more awkward.
If you have the stuff at hand I suppose it's reasonably doable, but if
you want to place an order for both hub, rim and spokes simultaneously
it can be a real nuisance.

sure. but you can't use the datakoll method without having the stuff at
hand either!

[measuring rim erd is easy enough without special tools. use two
spokes, two spoke nipples, and a tape measure. measure the spoke nipple
dimensions to where you want, then thread them onto the spokes head
down, i.e. opposite to the way you normally do. then have an assistant
hold these two into opposite holes in the rim - so the spoke nipples are
situated normally like they would be in a laced wheel, only the spokes
aren't in the way - while you measure the distance between them. add to
that measurement, a double quantity of the spoke nipple measurement you
made earlier, and you have the number you need for calculation.]

datakoll wrote:
what's proven is:
the theoreticians aren't building wheels
have poor memories
can't answer the question


dude, you're by far the wittiest guy on this group. but you're also the
hardest to help when you don't want to listen.

in this case, there is a real, simple, technical solution to the
question you originally asked. take the prescribed measurements, crank
the handle on the calculator, and the numbers you need drop out of the
bottom. and unless your measurements are wrong, the answers you get
from this method are guaranteed right.