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Handlebar rotation



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 4th 17, 12:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 3,967
Default Handlebar rotation


I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during
the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very
different position then in more recent times.

Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the
handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the
"U" bend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o

During a race in 1977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg

In 1987, still turned down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM

In 1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE

in 1994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg

In 2001 what may be an intermediate position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed
almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw

I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the
very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position
amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars
turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all
changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the
drops angled downward.

What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get
better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape?
--
Cheers,

John B.

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  #2  
Old July 4th 17, 03:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,299
Default Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote:

I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during
the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very
different position then in more recent times.

Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the
handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the
"U" bend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o

During a race in 1977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg

In 1987, still turned down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM

In 1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE

in 1994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg

In 2001 what may be an intermediate position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed
almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw

I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the
very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position
amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars
turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all
changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the
drops angled downward.

What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get
better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape?



Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the
downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the
hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist
them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #3  
Old July 4th 17, 08:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 453
Default Handlebar rotation

On 7/4/2017 4:05 AM, John B. wrote:

I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during
the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very
different position then in more recent times.

Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the
handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the
"U" bend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o

During a race in 1977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg

In 1987, still turned down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM

In 1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE

in 1994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg

In 2001 what may be an intermediate position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed
almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw

I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the
very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position
amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars
turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all
changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the
drops angled downward.

What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get
better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape?


Handlebar shapes definitely changed, though subtly. Compare a Cinelli
"Giro d'Italia" or especially a "Campione del Mundo" bar from the 80's
with a modern bar.

Brake levers changed dramatically around 90-95 with the addition of
shifters to the brake levers. I think their geometry tends to suit the
later position you mention. Their use strongly encourages riding on top
of the hoods, which (IMHO) is more comfortable when they "extend the top
flat section of the bars."

Perhaps separately, style changed (which may have been for legitimate
mechanical/biomechanical reasons, but that's never been necessary for a
change.)

Mark J.
  #4  
Old July 5th 17, 12:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default Handlebar rotation

On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 07:52:14 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote:

I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during
the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very
different position then in more recent times.

Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the
handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the
"U" bend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o

During a race in 1977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg

In 1987, still turned down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM

In 1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE

in 1994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg

In 2001 what may be an intermediate position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed
almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw

I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the
very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position
amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars
turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all
changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the
drops angled downward.

What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get
better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape?



Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the
downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the
hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist
them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads.


But for almost fifty years, and maybe even longer (I didn't search for
pre-WW II photos) top riders used essentially the same style of bars,
and relatively suddenly they all seemed to have changed to a much
flatter setup.

Are bicycle riders somehow mentally deficient that it takes them 50
years to figure out why their wrists are getting sore?


--
Cheers,

John B.

  #5  
Old July 5th 17, 12:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default Handlebar rotation

On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:15:59 -0700, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 7/4/2017 4:05 AM, John B. wrote:

I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during
the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very
different position then in more recent times.

Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the
handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the
"U" bend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o

During a race in 1977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg

In 1987, still turned down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM

In 1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE

in 1994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg

In 2001 what may be an intermediate position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed
almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw

I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the
very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position
amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars
turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all
changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the
drops angled downward.

What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get
better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape?


Handlebar shapes definitely changed, though subtly. Compare a Cinelli
"Giro d'Italia" or especially a "Campione del Mundo" bar from the 80's
with a modern bar.

Brake levers changed dramatically around 90-95 with the addition of
shifters to the brake levers. I think their geometry tends to suit the
later position you mention. Their use strongly encourages riding on top
of the hoods, which (IMHO) is more comfortable when they "extend the top
flat section of the bars."

Perhaps separately, style changed (which may have been for legitimate
mechanical/biomechanical reasons, but that's never been necessary for a
change.)

Mark J.


I think that you may have hit the nail on the head, as it were. I
hadn't thought that the change to flatter bars did coincide, at least
to some extent, with the change to "brifters" which would be awkward
to use with the old "bars twisted down" position.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #6  
Old July 5th 17, 02:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Handlebar rotation

On Tuesday, July 4, 2017 at 4:05:32 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during
the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very
different position then in more recent times.

Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the
handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the
"U" bend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o

During a race in 1977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg

In 1987, still turned down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM

In 1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE

in 1994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg

In 2001 what may be an intermediate position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed
almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw

I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the
very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position
amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars
turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all
changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the
drops angled downward.

What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get
better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape?


I would think it would be clear what happened. Shimano introduced the brifters and they required the bar to be angled slightly differently in order to be in the proper position for the rider to be able to use them.
  #7  
Old July 5th 17, 03:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,299
Default Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-04 16:33, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 07:52:14 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote:

I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during
the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very
different position then in more recent times.

Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the
handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the
"U" bend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o

During a race in 1977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg

In 1987, still turned down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM

In 1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE

in 1994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg

In 2001 what may be an intermediate position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed
almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw

I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the
very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position
amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars
turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all
changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the
drops angled downward.

What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get
better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape?



Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the
downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the
hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist
them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads.


But for almost fifty years, and maybe even longer (I didn't search for
pre-WW II photos) top riders used essentially the same style of bars,
and relatively suddenly they all seemed to have changed to a much
flatter setup.


It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For example,
computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15 years ago. And they
still sell the old style. Probably the industry didn't react until
enough people developed hardcore carpal tunnel problems.

I switched to a trackball within my first year because I thought this
can't be good.


Are bicycle riders somehow mentally deficient that it takes them 50
years to figure out why their wrists are getting sore?


Who knows :-)

It took the bicycle industry a whopping 100 years and they still haven't
figured out a good electrical system. Unless you build your own like I do.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #8  
Old July 5th 17, 03:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,299
Default Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-04 16:38, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:15:59 -0700, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 7/4/2017 4:05 AM, John B. wrote:

I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during
the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very
different position then in more recent times.

Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the
handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the
"U" bend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o

During a race in 1977
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg

In 1987, still turned down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM

In 1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE

in 1994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg

In 2001 what may be an intermediate position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed
almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw

I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the
very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position
amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars
turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all
changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the
drops angled downward.

What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get
better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape?


Handlebar shapes definitely changed, though subtly. Compare a Cinelli
"Giro d'Italia" or especially a "Campione del Mundo" bar from the 80's
with a modern bar.

Brake levers changed dramatically around 90-95 with the addition of
shifters to the brake levers. I think their geometry tends to suit the
later position you mention. Their use strongly encourages riding on top
of the hoods, which (IMHO) is more comfortable when they "extend the top
flat section of the bars."

Perhaps separately, style changed (which may have been for legitimate
mechanical/biomechanical reasons, but that's never been necessary for a
change.)

Mark J.


I think that you may have hit the nail on the head, as it were. I
hadn't thought that the change to flatter bars did coincide, at least
to some extent, with the change to "brifters" which would be awkward
to use with the old "bars twisted down" position.



Though the rider in the 2001 video at, for example, 1:04 min seems to
have classic downtube shifters. The bar is still slanted but the hoods
are formed such that his hands rest flat like on new flatter bars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #9  
Old July 5th 17, 04:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Handlebar rotation

On Wednesday, July 5, 2017 at 7:08:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For example,
computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15 years ago. And they
still sell the old style. Probably the industry didn't react until
enough people developed hardcore carpal tunnel problems.


On B52's the Bomb/Nav system would set the cross-hairs on the target with a "joy stick" which was shaped as the name would imply. You could set the cross hairs on the target and hold them there and the bombing computer would automatically compensate for wind and the effects it was having on the aircraft.

When I designed a robotic chemical placement mechanism with a computer interface I designed a joystick into it. The mechanical engineer constructed this as a light weight plastic structure.

The end result was that you had to hold the base of the joystick in one hand while setting the cross-hairs on each vial to be moved from point A to point B.

This was pretty clumsy so Dr. Michael McCown removed the top of the mechanism so that the gears that moved the variable resisters were showing. He tipped this upside down and would use it just like a mouse.

At this time there were no mice. Not a long time after than mice showed up on the scene. I don't know if it was my and Dr. McCown's cooperation improved or if someone else came up with that independently but I do know that Dr.. McCown most certainly was the first to be using a mouse-like mechanism.
  #10  
Old July 5th 17, 05:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,299
Default Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-05 08:25, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 5, 2017 at 7:08:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For
example, computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15 years
ago. And they still sell the old style. Probably the industry
didn't react until enough people developed hardcore carpal tunnel
problems.


On B52's the Bomb/Nav system would set the cross-hairs on the target
with a "joy stick" which was shaped as the name would imply. You
could set the cross hairs on the target and hold them there and the
bombing computer would automatically compensate for wind and the
effects it was having on the aircraft.

When I designed a robotic chemical placement mechanism with a
computer interface I designed a joystick into it. The mechanical
engineer constructed this as a light weight plastic structure.

The end result was that you had to hold the base of the joystick in
one hand while setting the cross-hairs on each vial to be moved from
point A to point B.

This was pretty clumsy so Dr. Michael McCown removed the top of the
mechanism so that the gears that moved the variable resisters were
showing. He tipped this upside down and would use it just like a
mouse.


That's a smart way to "fix" the design. I'd probably have screwed or
glued it down to some thick steel plate, something I have done to a lot
of things that I didn't want to slide about. The "feet" were usually
bicycle tube snippets.


At this time there were no mice. Not a long time after than mice
showed up on the scene. I don't know if it was my and Dr. McCown's
cooperation improved or if someone else came up with that
independently but I do know that Dr. McCown most certainly was the
first to be using a mouse-like mechanism.


Was it before 1964?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/te...ies-at-88.html

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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