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Standing + Big Gears Always = Knee Problems?
On Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:44:38 -0400, Steve Sr. wrote:
Hello, Before I get to the details let me start by saying that I am in my late 40's. Before anyone suggests bike fit as a cause let me say that the bike fit is good as evidenced by no knee problems until starting the above. I have also been riding about 100 miles a week through the winter so this isn't a spring over doers thing either. I have recently been trying to increase my strength by pushing hills while standing and slightly bigger gears sometimes while riding. I have noticed an increase in strength but unfortunately my knees don't seem able to take the added stress. So here I am sitting by the computer with my knee wrapped in an ice pack. This is probably patellar tendinitis as the pain seems to come from tendons on the top inside and bottom outside of the kneecap. The best I can tell is that the knee gets inflamed which then causes tendons and such to move out of place causing even more problems. So, am I doing something wrong? Other folks I ride with, some younger, some older, don't seem to have a problem standing or pushing bigger gears. Is there anything I can do to solve this or have I been genetically unlucky and born with bad knees? If not I have probably reached my cycling limit. You should probably get lower gears to ease the stress on your knees. However, I think pushing big gears at low cadences while sitting is worse than while standing. So if you're having trouble pushing at least 60-70rpm, get out of the saddle no matter what gear you're in. Straighten your leg at the top of the stroke, riding the pedal down with a straight leg, letting your weight do the work. This way you limit the force on your knees to that of your own weight. You might be able to work with a physical therapist or personal trainer to build leg strength through weight training, or a program of short hill climbs. Matt O. |
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#2
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Standing + Big Gears Always = Knee Problems?
There's some other factors that can cause this. Were you warmed up
enough before standing and pushing? Also, was the weather cold? Did you have something warm over your knees? You're in your late 40s. Take care of your knees. Don't push too hard. If you're doing 100 mile rides, that in itself could be hard on the knees. When cooled off, do your knees pop or creak when you stand up? If so, first I'd try a combination of icing and massaging two or three times a day. Standing on a pillow on one leg is a good PT exercise. Do other exercises and stretches besides cycling. Jim Gagnepain http://home.comcast.net/~oil_free_and_happy/ |
#3
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Standing + Big Gears Always = Knee Problems?
Per Steve Sr.:
Interesting point. I always thought that standing would be worse since your knee cap actually comes loose and then snaps back into place once per revolution while standing. Anybody else care to weigh in on which is really worse? My experience is that it depends on pace and effort. I stand a lot going up hills for the variety, because it feels good, and to give my butt a little rest. When I do so I'm just sort of loping along in a gear that's maybe fifty inches higher than what I'd spin in the saddle. In that situation there is no negative effect on what's left of my knees. OTOH during my very brief single speed career, my knees were definitely headed for trouble. The diff being that often I would ride out of the saddle with maximum effort (mainly to get up hills). -- PeteCresswell |
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Standing + Big Gears Always = Knee Problems?
(PeteCresswell) wrote: Per Steve Sr.: Interesting point. I always thought that standing would be worse since your knee cap actually comes loose and then snaps back into place once per revolution while standing. Anybody else care to weigh in on which is really worse? My experience is that it depends on pace and effort. I stand a lot going up hills for the variety, because it feels good, and to give my butt a little rest. When I do so I'm just sort of loping along in a gear that's maybe fifty inches higher than what I'd spin in the saddle. In that situation there is no negative effect on what's left of my knees. OTOH during my very brief single speed career, my knees were definitely headed for trouble. The diff being that often I would ride out of the saddle with maximum effort (mainly to get up hills). My one serious knee injury came with a fixed gear. After riding a fixed gear in real mountains in Germany with no problem I returned to the US and set up my bike again with one. The knee problem happened the day I put new cleats on my shoes. One was set wrong and I messed up my knee. There is nothing in the OP's original post to indicate that he strained his knees from pushing a gear too big. It sounds like he was being pretty moderate in his approach. I don't know what his problem is but it is not "big gears", and if the gear size was in reality the problem, it really wasn't- it is that he has extraordinarily weak tendons or athritis or something. He needs to find the underlying problem and fix it. Telling him to stop trying to improve his leg strength by pushing moderately higher gears is simply bad advice. My first advice would be to go to a doctor to have his knees checked out. If there's no underlying medical condition, he might want to try training with big gears only out of the saddle to eliminate saddle position as a source of the problem. Based on my experience, I would take a look at shoe-pedal angle- if it's not right, every revolution will strain ligaments and it would certainly be exacerbated by higher power output, whether from bigger gears or higher rpm. All of this assumes enough rest for the current problem to subside, and enough rest between rides to allow adequate recovery. This may mean resting for more than a day after a hard ride. In your late 40s there's no guarantee that you can adequately recover after a single rest day- it will vary by fitness and ride intensity. If you go out and your legs feel tired from the previous ride, you haven't rested enough. Park the bike and go for a quick walk if you can't control the intensity of your ride. It's not the gear size. |
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Standing + Big Gears Always = Knee Problems?
Steve Sr. wrote: I do have what doctors have called crepitas where tendons snap over calcified deposits. Sometimes the pain orriginates from one or more of these areas and sometimes it is just a non-specific ache. However, I have crepitas in both knees and only one knee is currently causing a problem. Didn't see the "slide your cleats back" advice, often offered in these discussions. That seemed to help my knees, which of course are mine, not yours g. Foot further forward on the pedal, is the position. Spinning can be very, very bad for knees, whatever the underlying problems of cleat alignment, joint problems, saddle height, whatever, might be. Stretching can be destructive, as well. And it doesn't take bouncing or forcing to cause a problem. http://www.lowcarbfreedom.com/2004/0...rian_stud.html http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/ar...5/Feature1.asp Suggesting stretching after, not before activity: http://www.ultrunr.com/stretch.html A good warm-up can be as easy as careful standing in a big gear for a few minutes, along with some relaxed seated pedaling. Some of those trackies can ride short, intense velodrome races with pretty casual-looking warm-ups, and you see them come back the next week and do it again. Same holds true for some good crit riders. IME, using large gears up hills isn't a problem by itself, if done carefully. It's accelerating up hills, possibly to answer a group surge, while in a big gear that causes "soreness". That, and big-time for me, spinning up and over the tops of hills, possibly that acceleration thing again-- I don't know exactly why, or what's going on, but I've learned to upshift a little early and stand before the crests, instead of increasing leg speed while seated, esp. when riding in a group, to cover the usual acceleration at the top. Recently repeated this lesson, with only mild irritation being enough of a reminder, thank you. (Anecdotal, offered as such, while noting regularity of occurrence). Another big change for me was going to 165 cranks. Some of the "crank length" tables support this choice, relative to my leg length. Who cares, I tried them and a certain constant after-ride knee soreness went away and hasn't come back. My saddle height has migrated down to where I have a little bend in the knee, sole of foot more or less parallel to the ground ("flat") at the bottom of the stroke. Oh yeah, I'm older than you g, and had "off the bike" knee problems 20 years ago. Rode close to 60 miles yesterday, and during the second (slightly shorter) half, had to give it all behind a faster rider in order to make it to an appointment (what a pretty day... whoops!). No problems at all today, will do a couple of hours later as schedule permits. I know I'm lucky, but then, I try to pay attention, too... "offered only as a positive", thanks. Birthday coming up, I already did the "years/miles" thing yesterday. Maybe a Century, or even a Double Birthday Spectacular! I'll need to start early g, and easy. Good luck in your progress! --D-y |
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Standing + Big Gears Always = Knee Problems?
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#7
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Standing + Big Gears Always = Knee Problems?
Per PeteCresswell...
good, and to give my butt a little rest. When I do so I'm just sort of loping along in a gear that's maybe fifty inches higher than what I'd spin in the saddle. In that situation there is no negative effect on what's left of my knees. Per Tim... A FIFTY inch difference? Is that correct? Wow, I don't approach that amount of difference sitting versus climbing while standing. Good catch. I got my units mixed up. I should have said "percent". I ride a fixed-gear hub that has a 13.5% difference between each gear and I'll routinely roll up 4 gears when I stand... sometimes three depending on the hill and my momentum. Depending on the starting gear, that's more like 15-25 inches. -- PeteCresswell |
#8
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Standing + Big Gears Always = Knee Problems?
Steve Sr. wrote: Interesting point. I have a 29" inseam and both road bikes now have 170 cranks. One was changed and the other was ordered with 170s. The mountain bike where this latest problem seems to have begun has 175s. I wouldn't think that 10mm would be a big enough difference to cause this problem. Just a part of a recipe, helps with my "general comfort", keeping the inflamation count down g. Not offered as a miracle cure. As others have suggested, if the standing in big gears is what bothers your knees, stop. If I do any of that (I have a 45/15 fixed gear bike, not all that huge a gear), I do it solo and real carefully. Congratulations! I just want to be able to do 80 miles when I'm 80! Good idea! OK, have you tried glucosamine/chrondontin supplements? I hurt a knee walking down stairs a couple of years ago. The doc said the xrays were good, and I should do rehab-style leg extensions on a machine, and take the glu/chron too. Took awhile, but the knee got better. I've had one or two episodes of soreness since, seemingly bike or not bike related, and have used glu/chron for shorter periods of time. I don't use it all the time because it costs $$ and frankly doesn't seem to "set very well" with me. Nothing severe at all. Apparently, one health food store item that is accepted by the "real" medical community after successful studies. --D-y |
#10
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Standing + Big Gears Always = Knee Problems?
Tim McNamara wrote: In article .com, wrote: snip I agree. Check for a real knee problem. I spent a lot of time chasing last year down why my left knee had occasional stabbing pains when riding and altered all kinds of aspects of my position and bike fit, only to find I had a torn meniscus- probably from aikido or a fall when cross-country skiing- and needed surgery. Knees are peculiar, and there is even a study in the New England Journal of Medicine where placebo arthroscopic surgeries had the same success rates as the real thing. See http://tinyurl.com/ld8hh . An orthopedist I know is also adamant that much knee pain is referred pain from the hip. So, the moral of the story is go to a good orthopedist. All of this assumes enough rest for the current problem to subside, and enough rest between rides to allow adequate recovery. This may mean resting for more than a day after a hard ride. In your late 40s there's no guarantee that you can adequately recover after a single rest day- it will vary by fitness and ride intensity. If you go out and your legs feel tired from the previous ride, you haven't rested enough. Park the bike and go for a quick walk if you can't control the intensity of your ride. I wish I could rest that much -- I don't think my legs have felt fresh in ten years. I just take a lot of ibuprophen and try to get my knee pain to be equal to or less than my back pain. Balance is important. -- Jay Beattie. |
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