visibility of DRL

On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running
lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the
time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found
myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed
by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over
several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's
more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before
dark, and overcast November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the
street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male
toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby
seat :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running
lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the
time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found
myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed
by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over
several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's
more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before
dark, and overcast November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the
street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male
toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby
seat :-)

Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike.

-- Jay Beattie.

jbeattie writes:

On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 7:55:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2019 9:58 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
David Scheidt wrote:
:From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running
:lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the
:time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found
:myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed
:by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
:bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over
:several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's
:more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before
:dark, and overcast November day.

:https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p

And one that will make Frank happy:
https://goo.gl/maps/S1QRDrdpBhz

I used your Street Views to track you along the street for quite a
while. Looks to me like in most photos, the light is visible only as a
white dot. (I suspect the photos where it looks brighter happened to
capture a moment when your handlebars twitched a big more toward the
Google car.) Overall, I doubt very much that it will make any more
difference than, say, if you painted a white circle on the middle of
your chest.

Which is not to say your light - or a white circle - has zero value in
daylight. There's data out there showing that motorcyclists who choose
white helmets get hit a bit less than motorcyclists who choose dark
helmets. However, that doesn't justify forcing all motorcyclists to wear
only white hats.

Some here will say that the problem is your Busch & Mueller headlight,
which is designed for lighting the road but not glaring in the eyes of
other road users. They have called for super-bright lights with
unsophisticated round beams, the kind that can irritate or even blind
others.

A couple weeks ago, my wife and I were on vacation in a city south of
here. On a riverside bike path at night, we were assaulted by one of
those glaring beams used by a rider coming the opposite direction. We
had to stop by the side of the bike path and shield our eyes until he
rode by. But I'm sure he felt very virtuous as well as safe.

We were passed by only one other cyclist. She had no lights at all.

So much for the Golden Mean.

I just yell at them -- like some psychotic homeless guy. I don't care.
There is no excuse for a 1,000 lumen light with no cut-off in a
side-by-side bike facility. Helmet lights are the worst. They're
right at eye level, and even a 300-500 lumen light can be
blinding.

But when you yell at them, they just look at you, melting your eyeballs.

With daylight savings, a little one-watt flasher is
sufficient, and is what I use when riding home in overcast or gloom.

-- Jay Beattie.




--

On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running
lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the
time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found
myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed
by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over
several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's
more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before
dark, and overcast November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the
street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male
toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby
seat :-)

Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike.

For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly
visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most
noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away.

What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top?

https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2019-04-04 12:15, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime
running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave
on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on
or off. I found myself on google street view on my ride home
last fall. I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got
passed again. So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures,
from the front and behind, over several blocks. This one gives a
good view of the headlight. It's more visible than I'd have
expected. This was about an hour before dark, and overcast
November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in
the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a
male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that
rose-colored baby seat :-)

Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray
Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him
if I were in a car or on a bike.


Next to the red car behind it, less visible:

https://goo.gl/maps/dNQBiRm4z672

I am not talking about you or me seeing him. I am talking about the
slightly soused dude who is keeping an eye on his smart phone.

Point is, bright yet non-blinding LED lighting is so easy and cheap
these days that I see no reason not to take advantage of it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 2:35:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running
lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the
time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found
myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed
by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over
several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's
more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before
dark, and overcast November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the
street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male
toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby
seat :-)

Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike.

For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly
visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most
noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away.

What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top?

https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2

The commuter scrum: https://bikeportland.org/2016/05/04/...o-essay-182506

Imagine if all those people had eye-popping, retina burning flashers and headlights.

And why do you need mega-light DRLs anyway? The vaunted Odense study proved that a tiny, induction powered front light prevented bicycle accidents -- even one-bike accidents, which is pretty amazing. http://www.eltis.org/discover/case-s...odense-denmark https://www.reelight.com/collections...s/products/cph

I'm fine with safety equipment that isn't annoying or unsafe. I'm not going to prescribe for others. Get your vest and flippy flag, clog the facility riding 8mph, but don't f****** blind me with your mega-light DRL! Consider this my very brief manifesto. Violators will be insulted with grammatically complex, late Victorian put-downs provided by Andre Jute.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 11:07:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/4/2019 10:09 AM, sms wrote:

Studies show the benefit of DRLs on bicycles, but it doesn't make any
difference to those that don't believe in scientific studies.

The study that's most often cited by Daytime Running Light fans did,
indeed, purport to show that the lights caused fewer crashes. The
assumption, of course, is that because the cyclists were more visible,
cars and pedestrians avoided them more often.

But that study was funded by the company that manufactured the lights
and gave them away to the subjects of the study. It would be hard to
dream up a more biased way of conducting a study. And indeed, the
study's data tables showed that those using the lights suffered far
fewer _solo_ crashes. Those are crashes where the cyclist simply falls
on his own, perhaps running into a curb, losing balance when starting
out, slipping on wet leaves, etc. It's proof of bias built into the study.

But to a person like "sms" (AKA Stephen M. Scharf) those fine points
don't matter. Any study that confirms his prejudices is just fine, no
matter how badly it's done.

And his main prejudice is that bicycling is terribly dangerous! SO
terribly dangerous that one must always use lights front and back that
blind others, and one must never ride without a funny plastic hat, and
cities must build cattle chutes to hind cyclists behind parked cars, and
you really ought to have a flippy flag sticking out sideways from your
bike, and you're foolish if you ride without a loud electric horn on
your bike...

Given that bicycles, in all states I believe, are deemed to be
vehicles that have a legal right to use the public roads and highways
why shouldn't they be equipped as other vehicles are?

After all, if vehicle "A" must be equipped with a horn, stop lights,
turn lights, etc, why shouldn't vehicle "B" be equally as well
equipped?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 10:55:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/3/2019 9:58 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
David Scheidt wrote:
:From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running
:lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the
:time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found
:myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed
:by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
:bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over
:several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's
:more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before
:dark, and overcast November day.

:https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p

And one that will make Frank happy:
https://goo.gl/maps/S1QRDrdpBhz

I used your Street Views to track you along the street for quite a
while. Looks to me like in most photos, the light is visible only as a
white dot. (I suspect the photos where it looks brighter happened to
capture a moment when your handlebars twitched a big more toward the
Google car.) Overall, I doubt very much that it will make any more
difference than, say, if you painted a white circle on the middle of
your chest.

Which is not to say your light - or a white circle - has zero value in
daylight. There's data out there showing that motorcyclists who choose
white helmets get hit a bit less than motorcyclists who choose dark
helmets. However, that doesn't justify forcing all motorcyclists to wear
only white hats.

Some here will say that the problem is your Busch & Mueller headlight,
which is designed for lighting the road but not glaring in the eyes of
other road users. They have called for super-bright lights with
unsophisticated round beams, the kind that can irritate or even blind
others.


I've read you and others going on about lights that blind oncoming
riders but frankly I don't see how that happens if the light is aimed
to illuminate the road. I use a regular single cell (3.7 VDC)
flashlight with the normal "unsophisticated" round beam and if I aim
it to illuminate the road it does not shine in the eyes of oncoming
riders, in fact after reading your various posts about blinding lights
I tested my lights.

I tested this, in full darkness, by parking the bike and walking a
distance in front of the bike and then turning and walking back toward
the bike. If the flashlight is aimed to illuminate the road it doesn't
shine in my eyes.

At other times I have observed where the light shines on autos that I
overtake in traffic and the beam seems to hit a car at about the level
of the tail lights.

Thus it would appear that blinding bicycle lights are simply aimed to
shine in approaching traffic's eyes. I might point out also that a
normal bicyclist's eyes are at a height above the roof level of the
average modern automobile.

This is not to say that it can't happen rather that it appears to be
just one of the usual short comings of the bicyclist.

A couple weeks ago, my wife and I were on vacation in a city south of
here. On a riverside bike path at night, we were assaulted by one of
those glaring beams used by a rider coming the opposite direction. We
had to stop by the side of the bike path and shield our eyes until he
rode by. But I'm sure he felt very virtuous as well as safe.

We were passed by only one other cyclist. She had no lights at all.

So much for the Golden Mean.
--
cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running
lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the
time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found
myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed
by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over
several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's
more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before
dark, and overcast November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the
street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male
toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby
seat :-)

Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray
Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I
were in a car or on a bike.

For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly
visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most
noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away.

What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top?

https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2



Are you advocating installing an entire box of 25 per bicycle, or was that
just the first product that came up when you Googled "bicycle safety flag"?
:-)

On 4/4/2019 7:43 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running
lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the
time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found
myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed
by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over
several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's
more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before
dark, and overcast November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the
street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male
toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby
seat :-)

Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray
Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I
were in a car or on a bike.

For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly
visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most
noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away.

What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top?

https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2



Are you advocating installing an entire box of 25 per bicycle, or was that
just the first product that came up when you Googled "bicycle safety flag"?
:-)

Oh, a mere dozen would never be safe enough! ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski