visibility of DRL

Sir Ridesalot writes:

On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 5:35:52 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running
lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the
time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found
myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed
by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over
several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's
more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before
dark, and overcast November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the
street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male
toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby
seat :-)

Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the
gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem
seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike.

For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly
visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most
noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away.

What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top?

https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2


--
- Frank Krygowski

I see a fair number of pedestrians these days wearing high-visibility
workmens' vests complete with the multiple reflective strips. It seems
to me that the "DANGER! DANGER!" thing is getting into everything.

I admit to owning one of those. I have worn it walking during
snowstorms, to make it less likely to be run over by a plow guy low on
sleep or some person making an emergency run to the packie*.

I have also worn it, when cycling, over a nonreflective winter coat,
when none of my cycling jackets was warm enough. If it's dark and
wintry I want to be visible.

On the other hand, I agree that wearing one on a quiet street, on a nice
night (or broad day), is a bit over the top.



--

On 2019-04-04 18:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 3:01:46 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-04 12:15, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of
daytime running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo,
which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the
difference if it's on or off. I found myself on google
street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed by the
car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind,
over several blocks. This one gives a good view of the
headlight. It's more visible than I'd have expected. This
was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind
you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear
light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting
in that rose-colored baby seat :-)

Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the
gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem
seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike.


Next to the red car behind it, less visible:

https://goo.gl/maps/dNQBiRm4z672

I am not talking about you or me seeing him. I am talking about
the slightly soused dude who is keeping an eye on his smart phone.

What about the moth effect!
https://www.poconorecord.com/article...NEWS/207150316 What if
the soused dude who is keeping an eye on his smart phone has a
seizure induced by the flasher! What if he is so distracted, he
wouldn't notice the second coming -- let alone a retina burning
blinky! Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!


Especially at night I had neighbors who passed me later say "Man, from
the distance I thought it was a cop so I tried to be on my best
behavior". Objective accomplished.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2019-04-04 17:18, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2019 6:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-04 12:15, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime
running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave
on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on
or off. I found myself on google street view on my ride home
last fall. I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got
passed again. So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures,
from the front and behind, over several blocks. This one gives a
good view of the headlight. It's more visible than I'd have
expected. This was about an hour before dark, and overcast
November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in
the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a
male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that
rose-colored baby seat :-)

Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray
Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him
if I were in a car or on a bike.


Next to the red car behind it, less visible:

https://goo.gl/maps/dNQBiRm4z672

Yes, because he chose a red jacket. If he chose yellow, he'd be better
off with the red car as background.

But then he might come upon a yellow car. Perhaps he should use green?

The obvious solution is to carry a full wardrobe of various colors and
quickly change jackets depending on traffic conditions.


No, just lights of motorcycle-grade brightness. Good enough.


Much more seriously: "less visible" than some theoretical maximum is not
necessarily a problem. A cyclist needs to be visible _enough_. And
despite the currently fashionable fear mongering, that does not require
any technology that wasn't common 20 years ago.

Good grief, Joerg, how did you survive riding 20 years ago??


Simple. Automotive technology is and was most of the time decades ahead
of bicycle technology, and so was I. Even 30+ years ago my bicycles had
a real electrical system including a rechargeable battery. At first a
small lead-acid battery, kind of heavy. Then NiCd and now LiIon. I
skipped the NiMH era. While my road bike still has the dynamo that used
to keep batteries charged I no longer use that dynamo. The LiIon pack is
good enough for 4h rides with the ship fully lit and I don't need DRL on
bike paths which, of course, I prefer. Meaning I can ride all day and
re-charge at home.

A cop in Germany wanted to give me a ticket for "non-StVZO compliant
lights". Unfortunately for him I was able to prove foreign residency so
he had to let me _and_ the bright lights go.

Next upgrade, some day, is a 8V - 5V switchmode converter so I can plug
in USB stuff. Turns out my bike's MP3 player which has its own battery
only lasts 2h and then it would last all day. If another rider's cell
phone runs out of juice I could help them out as well.

It may take another 10-20 years until the bicyle industry figures this
out. Or maybe never.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 4/5/2019 2:50 PM, Joerg wrote:


Especially at night I had neighbors who passed me later say "Man, from
the distance I thought it was a cop so I tried to be on my best
behavior". Objective accomplished.

Similarly, I've had multiple people comment on how good my lights were.
On my nighttime route home from work, there were two different instances
where a motorist and a motorcyclist spontaneously complimented my lights
as we sat at a red light, saying they could see my lights "from way back
there." I've had pedestrians shout "nice lights" when I rode by. I had a
co-worker on a committee remark about seeing my "space-shipey" lights
when I rode by her house. I had a colleague from work stop me after he
drove by to ask "What's that super bright light down by your rear axle?"
(It was a reflector.)

I've had many motorists wait inordinately long for me to pass before
either making left turns across my path, or pulling out from stop signs
to my right. In all those cases, at least three cars would have had time
to make the same maneuver before I got to the intersection.

All the above is with lights that were powered by a 3 Watt dynamo,
and/or very ordinary reflectors. In almost all cases, the lights weren't
even LED. They were halogen bulbs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/5/2019 3:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-04 17:18, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Much more seriously: "less visible" than some theoretical maximum is not
necessarily a problem. A cyclist needs to be visible _enough_. And
despite the currently fashionable fear mongering, that does not require
any technology that wasn't common 20 years ago.

Good grief, Joerg, how did you survive riding 20 years ago??


Simple. Automotive technology is and was most of the time decades ahead
of bicycle technology, and so was I. Even 30+ years ago my bicycles had
a real electrical system including a rechargeable battery. At first a
small lead-acid battery, kind of heavy. Then NiCd and now LiIon.

And because of that, you're the only person who survived riding 20 years
ago?

Sorry. You may have your superstitions, but I've been riding at night,
including home from work, since about 1977. I used perfectly normal
equipment. I've had zero problems.

If your mega lights were really necessary to keep cyclists safe, the
government would have required them long ago. The fact that some
countries actually outlaw what you use should be a clue.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 11:38:35 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/5/2019 2:33 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 8:47:24 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I see a fair number of pedestrians these days wearing high-visibility workmens' vests complete with the multiple reflective strips. It seems to me that the "DANGER! DANGER!" thing is getting into everything.

Cheers

Where my parents live there is a couple 1/2 mile or so up the road who walk the highway into town and back each day. They wear yellow vests/jackets to stand out to the drivers on the county road. They also walk on the opposite side of the road so they are facing traffic that is closest to them.. Seems kind of like common sense to me to wear something visible when you are walking on a road with 60+ mph cars, pickups, semis coming at you.

Yes, that's not unreasonable. But it doesn't explain the local couple
who wear safety vests while walking on sidewalks in a village with 25
mph speed limits, except 35 on a couple streets.

And that illustrates a common hand wringing mechanism:

Are bike lights reasonable at night or at dusk? Yes. "So we should use
them all the time!!!"

Is a helmet reasonable for a criterium race or gonzo downhill mountain
biking? Yes. "So every bicyclist must wear a helmet for every ride!!!"

This is how Safety Inflation happens.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Seatbelts ONLY save you if your car is going fast enough to propel you into the dash, windshield, side door, etc. Or eject you from the car. If you are only going 25 mph in your village, as you write, then WHY do we require by LAW that all motorists driving in that village wear seatbelts? The law should say they only have to wear seatbelts when driving outside of your 25 mph village, when speeds are higher and the safety of seatbelts is needed and comes into affect. But as you know, the law does not work that way. Just like bike helmets, helmets do work in some/most situations. Not all of course. So we require by law that helmets are worn all the time.

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 10:52:09 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 3:14:39 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 2:35:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running
lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the
time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found
myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed
by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over
several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's
more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before
dark, and overcast November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the
street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male
toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby
seat :-)

Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike.

For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly
visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most
noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away.

What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top?

https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2

The commuter scrum: https://bikeportland.org/2016/05/04/...o-essay-182506

Imagine if all those people had eye-popping, retina burning flashers and headlights.

And why do you need mega-light DRLs anyway? The vaunted Odense study proved that a tiny, induction powered front light prevented bicycle accidents -- even one-bike accidents, which is pretty amazing. http://www.eltis.org/discover/case-s...odense-denmark https://www.reelight.com/collections...s/products/cph

I'm fine with safety equipment that isn't annoying or unsafe. I'm not going to prescribe for others. Get your vest and flippy flag, clog the facility riding 8mph, but don't f****** blind me with your mega-light DRL! Consider this my very brief manifesto. Violators will be insulted with grammatically complex, late Victorian put-downs provided by Andre Jute.

-- Jay Beattie.

Systemic racism? So riding a bike on what should have been a residential thoroughfare represents systemic racism? Exactly how do the media get away with statements like that?

It's not the media -- its a thing. North Portland used to be a black community, largely created during the war years with mass migration of black workers to the Kaiser shipyards. The demographics changed post-war, gentrification and urban renewal occurred, and now we're trying to recreate the magical past. The right-minded white folk are attempting to "reintroduce" blacks into the area with paternalistic (if not racist) programs, including the so-called "Right to Return" program, which has been an expensive flop. https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...e-right-return https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/...ht_gentri.html

It's a twisted approach to race relations, economics, demographics and reality. There is no returning to the past unless you're building a Disneyland ride. If I were black, related to a prior resident and a beneficiary of the program, I'd certainly appreciate the low rent, but at the same time, I'd feel like the plastic hippo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o1n4Yrhi2Y I'd also tire of all the traffic and all the white hipsters packed into the former rib shack which is now a Thai fusion restaurant with $15 drinks and a waiting line around the block.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 2:03:23 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:

Next upgrade, some day, is a 8V - 5V switchmode converter so I can plug
in USB stuff. Turns out my bike's MP3 player which has its own battery
only lasts 2h and then it would last all day. If another rider's cell
phone runs out of juice I could help them out as well.

It may take another 10-20 years until the bicycle industry figures this
out. Or maybe never.

--
Regards, Joerg


Your bike has an MP3 player? Oh Boy.

On 2019-04-05 13:05, wrote:
On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 2:03:23 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:

Next upgrade, some day, is a 8V - 5V switchmode converter so I can plug
in USB stuff. Turns out my bike's MP3 player which has its own battery
only lasts 2h and then it would last all day. If another rider's cell
phone runs out of juice I could help them out as well.

It may take another 10-20 years until the bicycle industry figures this
out. Or maybe never.

--
Regards, Joerg


Your bike has an MP3 player? Oh Boy.


Yeah, even on the MTB. However, that is only used when riding alone on
boring long stretches or uphill slogs.

Like here, a long and mostly straight bike path that drones on for 10mi
and has little traffic outside rush hour or lunchtime (and no speed limit!):

https://www.laidbackcycles.com/wp-co...ail-400247.jpg

On the MTB I even carry a small ham radio transceiver but that is only
for emergency situations.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 11:50:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-04 18:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 3:01:46 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-04 12:15, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of
daytime running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo,
which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the
difference if it's on or off. I found myself on google
street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed by the
car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the
bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind,
over several blocks. This one gives a good view of the
headlight. It's more visible than I'd have expected. This
was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day.

https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p


Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind
you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear
light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting
in that rose-colored baby seat :-)

Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the
gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem
seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike.


Next to the red car behind it, less visible:

https://goo.gl/maps/dNQBiRm4z672

I am not talking about you or me seeing him. I am talking about
the slightly soused dude who is keeping an eye on his smart phone.

What about the moth effect!
https://www.poconorecord.com/article...NEWS/207150316 What if
the soused dude who is keeping an eye on his smart phone has a
seizure induced by the flasher! What if he is so distracted, he
wouldn't notice the second coming -- let alone a retina burning
blinky! Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!


Especially at night I had neighbors who passed me later say "Man, from
the distance I thought it was a cop so I tried to be on my best
behavior". Objective accomplished.


That's night. We're talking day. And if motorists think you're a cop, they're blind idiots and should have their licenses pulled -- unless you're riding with a blue light bar.

I have never mistaken a bicycle with a red flasher for the police, and I ride around hundreds cyclists with flashers every day. I think my observed record is five rear flashers, including the helmet arrow. https://lumoshelmet..co/ All that dope needed was a calliope and a stuffed monkey with cymbals and chattering teeth. He probably attracted cars, transfixed like moths. This is my safety get-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ojn3Lgg1mI

-- Jay Beattie.