Pain between shoulder blades

On May 12, 10:46*pm, Woland99 wrote:
On May 12, 3:31 pm, landotter wrote:



On May 12, 2:30 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:

Woland99 wrote:
On May 12, 11:38 am, landotter wrote:
On May 12, 11:21 am, Woland99 wrote:

Well I did my first 50 mile ride this Saturday. Started biking in Dec
with just
3-4 miles rides so I guess I made some progress. 50 miles was not too
bad
except for really nasty pain between my shoulder blades after about 35
miles.
Is that something that can be avoided? I had bike fitted and saddle
was moved
forward slightly for less weight on my arms. So I presume bike
geometry is OK.
You'll have to hope for a clairvoyant responder--as you don't mention
type of handlebars, height, width, your physical issues if any,
etc... ;-)

Start with the basics though--try to not hunch when you ride. Relax..
Stop and stretch. Don't grip the bars like Homer Simpson on Bart's
neck.

Don't presume bike geometry is OK, btw--and don't think that moving
the saddle is a substitute for getting the bar in the right place--if
that's your real issue. Mind, I just bumped my new saddle forward 5mm
to get "just right" the other day in relation to the hoods--that's one
thing--but if you've got a short stem and your elbows are locked out,
it's time to get the right size stem, as that's a bigger fix.

Give us a clearer idea of what's up.

It is just regular touring bike - Novara Randonee. So perhaps one with
slightly longer top tube but it should be ok for me - I have short
legs
and long torso. Drop handlebars. Bike was fitted so it width of the
handlebars is correct for my shoulder width. I do have weight problem
and yes I tend to grip bars very tightly - but I work on both of
these.
I will definitely go to place that did the fitting and ask them to
repeat the process (they guarantee it for 1 month). One significant
change that they did (beyond moving saddle forward) was moving cleats
backward by about 15mm - I think that this position better
corresponds
to the location of the ball of my foot.

I would wait for some rides before moving/adjusting anything.
I go through that proces every season. After two or three rides I'm OK..

With the adjustable stem on the Novara, it's just a matter of carrying
an allen key in your shirt pocket and doing a little monkeying on the
road. I'm with you, though. If I have been off the "sport" bike for a
month--it takes a couple rides for the back to relax back into
"position."

Thanks for suggestion. When I bought the bike I got stem adjusted in
slight upward position - the idea was to slowly lower it when I get
used to a bit more stretched position. But perhaps it may make sense
to move it even more upward for now.
I hope that it will eventually go away - I tried putting ice pack
on the sore spot and it helps somewhat. I have another 55 mile ride
this coming Sat - and with that pain it will not be fun.

When you are pedalling along pretty hard, if you cannot lift both
hands a few inches from the bars for a few moments without falling
forward or straining, you have too much weight on your arms. This will
be uncomfortable. As you lose weight, you will be able to lower your
bar position if you want. Weight is more important than flexibility in
that regard. You want your weight supported by your butt, not your
hands and shoulders.

If the guy fitting your at the shop hasn't been fat himself, he may
not be aware of how that changes things. Weight distribution on a bike
is very important for comfort, and being overweight changes how that
weight is distributed on the body and that needs to be taken into
account. The general way to do that is to move the seat back, and the
bars up and back to accomodate the seat move so you don't get too
stretched out. If you have a long torso, that part might not be so
important.

Try to work on not white-knuckling the bars. I ride with my hands open
quite a bit to relax my forearms. The relaxation is contagious!

How tall are you and what is the (approx) height difference between
the bars and saddle? That gives a rough idea of what you ar eup
against.

Joseph

Joseph Santaniello wrote:

Saddle forward for LESS weight on the arms? That doesn't make sense.

It isn't the weight on the arms that requires muscular stress but
rather the push and pull on the bars to counter pedaling torque,
especially when standing.

It could be just the change in position, too. For longer rides it
is important to keep the upper body relaxed, not tense, and not
scrunched up. And to change hand positions and stand every once in
a while to keep things loose.

I think it best to work into riding gradually so unused muscles don't
get stressed excessively on one ride. There could be another reason.
Muscular back aches often come from sleeping with part of the back
exposed to cool air and this is a chill effect during the time when
muscle regeneration after a ride takes place.

Jobst Brandt

In article
,
Woland99 wrote:

Well I did my first 50 mile ride this Saturday. Started biking in Dec
with just
3-4 miles rides so I guess I made some progress. 50 miles was not too
bad
except for really nasty pain between my shoulder blades after about 35
miles.
Is that something that can be avoided? I had bike fitted and saddle
was moved
forward slightly for less weight on my arms. So I presume bike
geometry is OK.
Perhaps there is something bad with my technique?
One mistake that I made before that 50 mile ride was pumping tires too
much
which combined with somewhat rough road contributed to a lot
unpleasant shaking.

Did you vary your position regularly?
Do you run drop bars?
Drop bars offer the widest variety
of useful postures. Employ them all.
If you run drop bars, they may be a trifle low.

--
Michael Press

On May 12, 3:25*pm, wrote:
Joseph Santaniello wrote:
Saddle forward for LESS weight on the arms? That doesn't make sense.

It isn't the weight on the arms that requires muscular stress but
rather the push and pull on the bars to counter pedaling torque,
especially when standing.

I've been riding in a leg brace for the last three weeks and confined
to my saddle. My light bike is geared for out of the saddle climbing,
and trying to make it up some of the local walls sitting down requires
a lot of upper body strength. I was amazed at the arm effort
required. I might actually develop muscles in my arms.-- Jay Beattie.

On May 12, 4:22 pm, "
wrote:
On May 12, 10:46 pm, Woland99 wrote:



On May 12, 3:31 pm, landotter wrote:

On May 12, 2:30 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:

Woland99 wrote:
On May 12, 11:38 am, landotter wrote:
On May 12, 11:21 am, Woland99 wrote:

Well I did my first 50 mile ride this Saturday. Started biking in Dec
with just
3-4 miles rides so I guess I made some progress. 50 miles was not too
bad
except for really nasty pain between my shoulder blades after about 35
miles.
Is that something that can be avoided? I had bike fitted and saddle
was moved
forward slightly for less weight on my arms. So I presume bike
geometry is OK.
You'll have to hope for a clairvoyant responder--as you don't mention
type of handlebars, height, width, your physical issues if any,
etc... ;-)

Start with the basics though--try to not hunch when you ride. Relax.
Stop and stretch. Don't grip the bars like Homer Simpson on Bart's
neck.

Don't presume bike geometry is OK, btw--and don't think that moving
the saddle is a substitute for getting the bar in the right place--if
that's your real issue. Mind, I just bumped my new saddle forward 5mm
to get "just right" the other day in relation to the hoods--that's one
thing--but if you've got a short stem and your elbows are locked out,
it's time to get the right size stem, as that's a bigger fix.

Give us a clearer idea of what's up.

It is just regular touring bike - Novara Randonee. So perhaps one with
slightly longer top tube but it should be ok for me - I have short
legs
and long torso. Drop handlebars. Bike was fitted so it width of the
handlebars is correct for my shoulder width. I do have weight problem
and yes I tend to grip bars very tightly - but I work on both of
these.
I will definitely go to place that did the fitting and ask them to
repeat the process (they guarantee it for 1 month). One significant
change that they did (beyond moving saddle forward) was moving cleats
backward by about 15mm - I think that this position better
corresponds
to the location of the ball of my foot.

I would wait for some rides before moving/adjusting anything.
I go through that proces every season. After two or three rides I'm OK.

With the adjustable stem on the Novara, it's just a matter of carrying
an allen key in your shirt pocket and doing a little monkeying on the
road. I'm with you, though. If I have been off the "sport" bike for a
month--it takes a couple rides for the back to relax back into
"position."

Thanks for suggestion. When I bought the bike I got stem adjusted in
slight upward position - the idea was to slowly lower it when I get
used to a bit more stretched position. But perhaps it may make sense
to move it even more upward for now.
I hope that it will eventually go away - I tried putting ice pack
on the sore spot and it helps somewhat. I have another 55 mile ride
this coming Sat - and with that pain it will not be fun.

When you are pedalling along pretty hard, if you cannot lift both
hands a few inches from the bars for a few moments without falling
forward or straining, you have too much weight on your arms. This will
be uncomfortable. As you lose weight, you will be able to lower your
bar position if you want. Weight is more important than flexibility in
that regard. You want your weight supported by your butt, not your
hands and shoulders.

If the guy fitting your at the shop hasn't been fat himself, he may
not be aware of how that changes things. Weight distribution on a bike
is very important for comfort, and being overweight changes how that
weight is distributed on the body and that needs to be taken into
account. The general way to do that is to move the seat back, and the
bars up and back to accomodate the seat move so you don't get too
stretched out. If you have a long torso, that part might not be so
important.

Try to work on not white-knuckling the bars. I ride with my hands open
quite a bit to relax my forearms. The relaxation is contagious!

How tall are you and what is the (approx) height difference between
the bars and saddle? That gives a rough idea of what you ar eup
against.

Joseph

I was under impression that with seat positioned too much back you
have to support your weight on you arm more. I think that that was
the reason that guy in LBS wanted seat forward (on top of moving
cleats backward - in that case you want to move saddle forward to
reposition you knees correct above pedals).
I am 6ft tall - bike that I ride has (if I measured it correctly -
from center of seatpost to center of head tube) 22" top tube.
The top of the handlebar is lightly above the top of the seat -
maybe 1/4". The stem is already in quite upright position - almost
at 45 degrees.
What you said about whiteknuckling the bars may be true - I hardly
ever climb out of the saddle (there is no reason for that since
Randonee has rather low gearing 48/36/26 and 11/32) but when you
climb sitting down you tend to grab the bars with a lot of force.

JT

On May 12, 9:14 pm, "Bill" wrote:
Good chance the saddle is to far forward. Here is the theory and fit info
that supports the concept.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html
Bill

Thanks for the link - very good analysis altho it will require
couple readings for me to sink in all the details. Fact is that
with KOPS (Knee Over Pedal Spindle) fitting and seat moved forward
I still find that I get maximum force when climbing in saddle by
sitting slightly back, grabbing bars on top and pushing with my
legs slightly forward (catching dead part of the cycle when pedal
is on top and pushing it forward). Not sure if it makes any sense
just feels like effective method. Climbing out of the saddle seems
to require a lot of upper body work for me - I am quite sure I have
a lot to leasrn there.
I think that part of the problem with pain in upper back may be
due to the fact that I tend to allow torso to sortta sag down
and shoulder blade to go back - that creates tensin in that area.
IN that respect seat positioned forward is most likely more of an
enemy than help.

On May 13, 7:26*am, Woland99 wrote:
On May 12, 9:14 pm, "Bill" wrote:

Good chance the saddle is to far forward. Here is the theory and fit info
that supports the concept.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html
Bill

Thanks for the link - very good analysis altho it will require
couple readings for me to sink in all the details. Fact is that
with KOPS (Knee Over Pedal Spindle) fitting and seat moved forward
I still find that I get maximum force when climbing in saddle by
sitting slightly back, grabbing bars on top and pushing with my
legs slightly forward (catching dead part of the cycle when pedal
is on top and pushing it forward). Not sure if it makes any sense
just feels like effective method. Climbing out of the saddle seems
to require a lot of upper body work for me - I am quite sure I have
a lot to leasrn there.
I think that part of the problem with pain in upper back may be
due to the fact that I tend to allow torso to sortta sag down
and shoulder blade to go back - that creates tensin in that area.
IN that respect seat positioned forward is most likely more of an
enemy than help.

That makes perfect sense about sliding youy butt back on climbs and
powering forward with your pedal stroke. Anotehr thing that makes me
think your saddle is too far forward.

If you are stiff-arming the bars with lots of weight on your hands,
and letting your back sag down, it's not strange you are having
discomfort. That means too much weight is on your arms. It needs to be
on your butt.

If you stand (no bike) and bend over with hands on a table edge and
try to simulate how much weight is on your bars, you will find your
butt is in some position. If you move your butt rearward, the weight
lessens on your hands and you eventually can lift them from the table.
If you move your butt forward more weight ends up on your hands.

When climbing Bernard Hinault said your hands should have a light grip
and it should feel like you could play piano. That may be extreme, but
it's a far cry from white-knuckles!

The bar height sounds reasonable (it's not some crazy low bar), so I
think saddle position and posture is all the more important.

Joseph

On May 13, 12:26*am, Woland99 wrote:

Not sure if it makes any sense
just feels like effective method. Climbing out of the saddle seems
to require a lot of upper body work for me - I am quite sure I have
a lot to leasrn there.

Some people make a large deal out of pointing out that "it doesn't
make any difference when measured"-- how you think about pedaling or
try to manage your efforts isn't detectable through instrumentation.
All well and good, I don't let that deter me from doing what works.

I think that part of the problem with pain in upper back may be
due to the fact that I tend to allow torso to sortta sag down
and shoulder blade to go back - that creates tensin in that area.
IN that respect seat positioned forward is most likely more of an
enemy than help.

Well, you need to practice your positioning like most everyone else--
grip not too tight, but tight enough to hold on over bumps, elbows
bent to absorb shock, and pointed somewhat outwards, so forth. There
are a couple of places in town where I can ride by reflective windows
(without running into anything or being hit by an MV, so far) and
check on how I'm doing. My problem is tightening up the left shoulder,
actually raising it up and going into clamp mode for some reason.
Something I've had to correct somewhat continuously over the last 30
years g. WTH, like playing pedaling games, it gives you something to
do out there!

Try consciously moving your hands around on the bars, changing grip
positions frequently if your hands are clenching. Makes you loosen
your grip (!), and also stops the "going rigid" thing at least for a
moment. Your pedaling power comes mostly from the small of of your
back and on down, when seated-- putting that into the thought process
can help things along.

If you have access to a gym with free weights and/or machines (and
aren't already on a workout regime) some light work, going through
full range of motion, doing a fair number of light-medium effort reps,
can really help with conditioning you for the bike. For me, for some
reason even though you don't seem to use the triceps all that much,
doing some fairly hard triceps work (after building up to it) seemed
to really help. I've had people pooh-pooh that, but there it is. --D-y

In article
,
Woland99 wrote:

On May 12, 9:14 pm, "Bill" wrote:
Good chance the saddle is to far forward. Here is the theory and fit info
that supports the concept.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html
Bill

Thanks for the link - very good analysis altho it will require
couple readings for me to sink in all the details. Fact is that
with KOPS (Knee Over Pedal Spindle) fitting and seat moved forward
I still find that I get maximum force when climbing in saddle by
sitting slightly back, grabbing bars on top and pushing with my
legs slightly forward (catching dead part of the cycle when pedal
is on top and pushing it forward). Not sure if it makes any sense
just feels like effective method. Climbing out of the saddle seems
to require a lot of upper body work for me - I am quite sure I have
a lot to leasrn there.
I think that part of the problem with pain in upper back may be
due to the fact that I tend to allow torso to sortta sag down
and shoulder blade to go back - that creates tensin in that area.
IN that respect seat positioned forward is most likely more of an
enemy than help.

KOPS is a starting point. The object is to have your weight
balanced over your center of effort (approximately the bottom
bracket). Adjust the saddle from there. If you have knee pain
move the saddle up or down. Continue to adjust various
parameters one at a time to discover their effects.

--
Michael Press

Per Garry Lee:
The only time I got that was when I was overstretched. Try a shorter
reach.

Only time I got it, my gall bladder was infected. 4 days of
feeling like I was having a heart attack.
--
PeteCresswell