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Tire-making, continued....



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 21st 09, 12:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DougC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,276
Default Tire-making, continued....

I've gotten in some of the materials (kevlar thread, latex, fumed
silica) but not all (still need fabric).

I also stopped by china-mart and bought a $12 26" white-wall "beach
cruiser" tire packaged under the Bell name, but marked Innova. I decided
to cut apart an existing tire to see how it was made, and all I had
around was better-quality tires and it seemed a shame to cut up a usable
$50 Schwalbe or Continental. I did have a pair of no-names I got off a
Worksman bike, but even those are the kevlar-belts and they were used so
little that the center treads still has the nubbies on it.

First off I was surprised at how thin it is made; I'd have guessed that
it was at least twice as thick as it turned out to be. The sidewalls
measure around .09" thick, and the center area (in-between the tread
blocks) measures right around .1" thick. The tread blocks measure
another .09" taller than that. The tire is made in three layers--black
casing, white-wall layer, and then the center tread layer on top. Once
cut, a thin section of the white-wall rubber is visible all the way
across the tire.

The tire came rolled up into a small box, and I had always thought
(since seeing these tire packages in Wal-Mart) that these tires used
kevlar beads, but that's not so--they just use stranded wire cable.
Three turns of cable approximately .04" diameter each, which seems to
indicate a "working" weight capacity of around 60 lbs each (as per this
page)-
http://www.govart.com/hardware_wire.html
The bead wire is not really picture wire, as the bead wire is 3 core
strands surrounded by eight outer strands (not seven strands as the page
says picture wire always is). Still, three or four turns of the kevlar
thread should come fairly close to the same strength. The kevlar thread
I bought is #346, which is .026" diameter and has a "strength" rating of
140 lbs, which--I would guess--is the typical breaking strength.

The fabric used for the tire casing, I don't know if I will be able to
duplicate. It isn't even "fabric" in the usual sense, it's just a grid
of loose moderately-thick threads--they wouldn't even stay together if
they weren't embedded in rubber. It's a square-weave (two sets of
threads 90-degrees apart, and tilted 45-degrees to the plane of the
tire) but one way has only about 10% of the threads of the other.... one
way they are .065" apart, and the other way is .435" apart.
,,,,,,,
I may just have to pick a medium-weight nylon mesh and try that. I tried
looking for window screening but that's all fiberglass or polypropylene.

The fumed silica is a rather odd substance. Still in its double-bagged
package, it feels like the squishy foam stress-reliever desk toys. It's
solid, but can be squished into whatever shape you want, and it stays in
that shape once squeezed... and it has a rubbery "bounce" if you thunk
it. It's also very light-weight, a gallon of it weighs only 10 oz.

The latex I haven't opened yet. The label says it is white, which I was
hoping, because the auction didn't say and I'd seen some brush-on
elsewhere that was light green.

I haven't bought any carbon black yet, don't need it right away....
~
Ads
  #2  
Old November 21st 09, 02:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Kerry Montgomery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 676
Default Tire-making, continued....


"DougC" wrote in message
...
I've gotten in some of the materials (kevlar thread, latex, fumed silica)
but not all (still need fabric).

I also stopped by china-mart and bought a $12 26" white-wall "beach
cruiser" tire packaged under the Bell name, but marked Innova. I decided
to cut apart an existing tire to see how it was made, and all I had around
was better-quality tires and it seemed a shame to cut up a usable $50
Schwalbe or Continental. I did have a pair of no-names I got off a
Worksman bike, but even those are the kevlar-belts and they were used so
little that the center treads still has the nubbies on it.

First off I was surprised at how thin it is made; I'd have guessed that it
was at least twice as thick as it turned out to be. The sidewalls measure
around .09" thick, and the center area (in-between the tread blocks)
measures right around .1" thick. The tread blocks measure another .09"
taller than that. The tire is made in three layers--black casing,
white-wall layer, and then the center tread layer on top. Once cut, a thin
section of the white-wall rubber is visible all the way across the tire.

The tire came rolled up into a small box, and I had always thought (since
seeing these tire packages in Wal-Mart) that these tires used kevlar
beads, but that's not so--they just use stranded wire cable. Three turns
of cable approximately .04" diameter each, which seems to indicate a
"working" weight capacity of around 60 lbs each (as per this page)-
http://www.govart.com/hardware_wire.html
The bead wire is not really picture wire, as the bead wire is 3 core
strands surrounded by eight outer strands (not seven strands as the page
says picture wire always is). Still, three or four turns of the kevlar
thread should come fairly close to the same strength. The kevlar thread I
bought is #346, which is .026" diameter and has a "strength" rating of 140
lbs, which--I would guess--is the typical breaking strength.

The fabric used for the tire casing, I don't know if I will be able to
duplicate. It isn't even "fabric" in the usual sense, it's just a grid of
loose moderately-thick threads--they wouldn't even stay together if they
weren't embedded in rubber. It's a square-weave (two sets of threads
90-degrees apart, and tilted 45-degrees to the plane of the tire) but one
way has only about 10% of the threads of the other.... one way they are
.065" apart, and the other way is .435" apart.
,,,,,,,
I may just have to pick a medium-weight nylon mesh and try that. I tried
looking for window screening but that's all fiberglass or polypropylene.

The fumed silica is a rather odd substance. Still in its double-bagged
package, it feels like the squishy foam stress-reliever desk toys. It's
solid, but can be squished into whatever shape you want, and it stays in
that shape once squeezed... and it has a rubbery "bounce" if you thunk it.
It's also very light-weight, a gallon of it weighs only 10 oz.

The latex I haven't opened yet. The label says it is white, which I was
hoping, because the auction didn't say and I'd seen some brush-on
elsewhere that was light green.

I haven't bought any carbon black yet, don't need it right away....
~

DougC,
If I remember correctly, fumed silica is way bad stuff to breath. And, if
you put your hand into it, it's such a great insulator that the heat given
off by your hand quickly makes your hand uncomfortably hot.
Have fun, look forward to your results,
Kerry


  #3  
Old November 21st 09, 03:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Cicero Venatio
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 148
Default Tire-making, continued....


I haven't bought any carbon black yet, don't need it right away....
~


-----------
Everybody is cooking up their own new tires now, it's the new rage to be
independent.
  #4  
Old November 21st 09, 05:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Tire-making, continued....

On 20 Nov, 23:45, DougC wrote:
I've gotten in some of the materials (kevlar thread, latex, fumed
silica) but not all (still need fabric).

I also stopped by china-mart and bought a $12 26" white-wall "beach
cruiser" tire packaged under the Bell name, but marked Innova. I decided
to cut apart an existing tire to see how it was made, and all I had
around was better-quality tires and it seemed a shame to cut up a usable
$50 Schwalbe or Continental. I did have a pair of no-names I got off a
Worksman bike, but even those are the kevlar-belts and they were used so
little that the center treads still has the nubbies on it.

First off I was surprised at how thin it is made; I'd have guessed that
it was at least twice as thick as it turned out to be. The sidewalls
measure around .09" thick, and the center area (in-between the tread
blocks) measures right around .1" thick. The tread blocks measure
another .09" taller than that. The tire is made in three layers--black
casing, white-wall layer, and then the center tread layer on top. Once
cut, a thin section of the white-wall rubber is visible all the way
across the tire.

The tire came rolled up into a small box, and I had always thought
(since seeing these tire packages in Wal-Mart) that these tires used
kevlar beads, but that's not so--they just use stranded wire cable.
Three turns of cable approximately .04" diameter each, which seems to
indicate a "working" weight capacity of around 60 lbs each (as per this
page)-http://www.govart.com/hardware_wire.html
The bead wire is not really picture wire, as the bead wire is 3 core
strands surrounded by eight outer strands (not seven strands as the page
says picture wire always is). Still, three or four turns of the kevlar
thread should come fairly close to the same strength. The kevlar thread
I bought is #346, which is .026" diameter and has a "strength" rating of
140 lbs, which--I would guess--is the typical breaking strength.

The fabric used for the tire casing, I don't know if I will be able to
duplicate. It isn't even "fabric" in the usual sense, it's just a grid
of loose moderately-thick threads--they wouldn't even stay together if
they weren't embedded in rubber. It's a square-weave (two sets of
threads 90-degrees apart, and tilted 45-degrees to the plane of the
tire) but one way has only about 10% of the threads of the other.... one
way they are .065" apart, and the other way is .435" apart.
,,,,,,,
I may just have to pick a medium-weight nylon mesh and try that. I tried
looking for window screening but that's all fiberglass or polypropylene.

The fumed silica is a rather odd substance. Still in its double-bagged
package, it feels like the squishy foam stress-reliever desk toys. It's
solid, but can be squished into whatever shape you want, and it stays in
that shape once squeezed... and it has a rubbery "bounce" if you thunk
it. It's also very light-weight, a gallon of it weighs only 10 oz.

The latex I haven't opened yet. The label says it is white, which I was
hoping, because the auction didn't say and I'd seen some brush-on
elsewhere that was light green.

I haven't bought any carbon black yet, don't need it right away....
~


kevlar 'wires' are used with hook bead rim otherwise known as crochet
bead rim. If you are not using thistype of rim you need to use steel
wire for the tyre edge as its not the strength of the wire which
matteers so much as its ability to constrain, in other words, its
elasticity. A llarger section or higher running pressure tyre will
need stiffer wires to prevet tyre lift off and non-requisit
demounting. in other words you'll likely roll a tyre with kevlar
bead. You possibly can buy good tyre casing 'material' but you may
have to buy it by the mile. Other than laying out your own threads
and spraying them with latex to produce a single ply faric I cant see
you getting a small quatity of tyre casing material. a loom is not
necessary just wrap a card with your thin thread, spray with latex and
cut the fabric at 45deg.
  #5  
Old November 21st 09, 09:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DougC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,276
Default Tire-making, continued....

thirty-six wrote:

kevlar 'wires' are used with hook bead rim otherwise known as crochet
bead rim. If you are not using thistype of rim you need to use steel
wire for the tyre edge as its not the strength of the wire which
matteers so much as its ability to constrain, in other words, its
elasticity. A llarger section or higher running pressure tyre will
need stiffer wires to prevet tyre lift off and non-requisit
demounting. in other words you'll likely roll a tyre with kevlar
bead.


Kevlar has only about 1% elongation before breaking.

One thing I noticed about the tire bead and cables--the physical tire
bead (the one that you can see) is much larger than the actual cables
that really hold the tire from expanding.... so I wonder if the external
rubber ridge is needed at all? It might help protect the real bead from
idiots with tire levers but I don't use tire levers, so that don't apply
to me. ,,,,,,,I have a set of Big Apples I can't use because they won't
sit properly on the target bike's rims--the tire seats with a low spot
and I've never found any technique to help it. If the rubber ridge is
the cause of the seating problem and it's not necessary anyway, the
outside of it could be -carefully- trimmed off somewhat without harming
the tire.

You possibly can buy good tyre casing 'material' but you may
have to buy it by the mile. Other than laying out your own threads
and spraying them with latex to produce a single ply faric I cant see
you getting a small quatity of tyre casing material. a loom is not
necessary just wrap a card with your thin thread, spray with latex and
cut the fabric at 45deg.


I'll just have to use what I can find, at this point I doubt I'd find
anything quite like the "real thing" and making it myself doesn't sound
very practical.
~


  #6  
Old November 21st 09, 12:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,312
Default Tire-making, continued....

Doug Cimper wrote:
thirty-six wrote:

kevlar 'wires' are used with hook bead rim otherwise known as crochet
bead rim. If you are not using thistype of rim you need to use steel
wire for the tyre edge as its not the strength of the wire which
matteers so much as its ability to constrain, in other words, its
elasticity. A llarger section or higher running pressure tyre will
need stiffer wires to prevet tyre lift off and non-requisit
demounting. in other words you'll likely roll a tyre with kevlar
bead.


Kevlar has only about 1% elongation before breaking.
[...]


That is plastic deformation, not elastic. For example, the elastomers
used to make rubber bands have a hundred percent elastic deformation or
more before yielding, but only about one percent plastic deformation
before tensile failure.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #7  
Old November 21st 09, 01:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Tire-making, continued....

On 21 Nov, 08:56, DougC wrote:
thirty-six wrote:

kevlar 'wires' are used with hook bead rim otherwise known as crochet
bead rim. *If you are not using thistype of rim you need to use steel
wire for the tyre edge as its not the strength of the wire which
matteers so much as its ability to constrain, in other words, its
elasticity. A llarger section or higher running pressure tyre will
need stiffer wires to prevet tyre lift off and non-requisit
demounting. *in other words you'll likely roll a tyre with kevlar
bead. *


Kevlar has only about 1% elongation before breaking.


Never mind running into problems about constraining the tyre to rim,
you are making it difficult for youself in construction. With steel
wires you have some stability during assembly upon which to wrap your
'cloth'. BTW if you dont use a weftless warp cloth, or nearly so, you
will likely be dissapointed with the results,. You may get your
required look but the performance will be poor.


One thing I noticed about the tire bead and cables--the physical tire
bead (the one that you can see) is much larger than the actual cables
that really hold the tire from expanding.... so I wonder if the external
rubber ridge is needed at all?


Not if the wiring is stiff enough. The tyre you have has most likely
been constructed in a way to facilitate cheapest cost. This does not
make it a bad example, but the differences between tyres should show
you what you can vary.

It might help protect the real bead from
idiots with tire levers but I don't use tire levers, so that don't apply
to me. ,,,,,,,


You said the tyre was coiled up in a box, this requires thin wires,
the beading compensates for the thin wires on a genuine clincher rim.
The cost savings are in storage and transportation space along with
the ability to market the tyres from a non bike specific shop.

I have a set of Big Apples I can't use because they won't
sit properly on the target bike's rims--the tire seats with a low spot
and I've never found any technique to help it. If the rubber ridge is
the cause of the seating problem and it's not necessary anyway, the
outside of it could be -carefully- trimmed off somewhat without harming
the tire.


Try the tyre in a different orientation to establish is the low spot
due to the tyre or the rim. Use plenty of french chalk// talcum.

You possibly can buy good tyre casing 'material' but you may
have to buy it by the mile. *Other than laying out your own threads
and spraying them with latex to produce a single ply faric I cant see
you getting a small quatity of tyre casing material. *a loom is not
necessary just wrap a card with your thin thread, spray with latex and
cut the fabric at 45deg.


I'll just have to use what I can find, at this point I doubt I'd find
anything quite like the "real thing" and making it myself doesn't sound
very practical.



Well the alternative I see are to either beg at the door of a tyre
factory / look in their waste or salvage from used tyres including
motorcycle and sports car tyres, you'll be lookin at the side wall for
v=clues.. So if you know of any domestic tyre manufacturers, perhaps
you could approach them for assembled casinggs or offcuts of casing
material.
  #8  
Old November 21st 09, 02:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DougC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,276
Default Tire-making, continued....

thirty-six wrote:


BTW if you dont use a weftless warp cloth, or nearly so, you
will likely be dissapointed with the results,. You may get your
required look but the performance will be poor.


I don't know what "weftless warp cloth" is.
Also, dictionary.com doesn't know, wikipedia doesn't know, and Google
cannot find me a picture of it either...... what exactly do you mean here?


I have a set of Big Apples I can't use because they won't
sit properly on the target bike's rims--the tire seats with a low spot
and I've never found any technique to help it. If the rubber ridge is
the cause of the seating problem and it's not necessary anyway, the
outside of it could be -carefully- trimmed off somewhat without harming
the tire.


Try the tyre in a different orientation to establish is the low spot
due to the tyre or the rim. Use plenty of french chalk// talcum.


I don't want it on another bike, and chalk ain't gonna help.
And every method I could find online has been tried and re-tried, in
various combinations and orders, several times. Big Apples simply won't
fit properly on Sun BFR rims.


I'll just have to use what I can find, at this point I doubt I'd find
anything quite like the "real thing" and making it myself doesn't sound
very practical.



Well the alternative I see are to either beg at the door of a tyre
factory / look in their waste or salvage from used tyres including
motorcycle and sports car tyres, you'll be lookin at the side wall for
v=clues.. So if you know of any domestic tyre manufacturers, perhaps
you could approach them for assembled casinggs or offcuts of casing
material.


Ha ha,,, -that's a good one.
Are there any tire companies that /aren't/ in China?
~
  #9  
Old November 21st 09, 02:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DougC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,276
Default Tire-making, continued....

Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
Doug Cimper wrote:
thirty-six wrote:

kevlar 'wires' are used with hook bead rim otherwise known as crochet
bead rim. If you are not using thistype of rim you need to use steel
wire for the tyre edge as its not the strength of the wire which
matteers so much as its ability to constrain, in other words, its
elasticity. A llarger section or higher running pressure tyre will
need stiffer wires to prevet tyre lift off and non-requisit
demounting. in other words you'll likely roll a tyre with kevlar
bead.


Kevlar has only about 1% elongation before breaking.
[...]


That is plastic deformation, not elastic. For example, the elastomers
used to make rubber bands have a hundred percent elastic deformation or
more before yielding, but only about one percent plastic deformation
before tensile failure.


So where can I buy some of this stretchy kevlar?

Every place selling it I've ever seen gave an "elongation before
breaking" of around 1%.

http://www.pelicanrope.com/new03.htm
~
  #10  
Old November 21st 09, 02:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Tire-making, continued....

On 21 Nov, 13:07, DougC wrote:
thirty-six wrote:

BTW if you dont use a weftless warp cloth, or nearly so, you
will likely be dissapointed with the results,. *You may get your
required look but the performance will be poor.


I don't know what "weftless warp cloth" is.


The weft is the thread which goes from weft to wight on the loom and
the warp goes up. Sorry ,its a warpless weft cloth.

Also, dictionary.com doesn't know, wikipedia doesn't know, and Google
cannot find me a picture of it either...... what exactly do you mean here?


What i meant, I meant, what I said is different.



I have a set of Big Apples I can't use because they won't
sit properly on the target bike's rims--the tire seats with a low spot
and I've never found any technique to help it. If the rubber ridge is
the cause of the seating problem and it's not necessary anyway, the
outside of it could be -carefully- trimmed off somewhat without harming
the tire.


Try the tyre in a different orientation to establish is the low spot
due to the tyre or the rim. *Use plenty of french chalk// talcum.


I don't want it on another bike, and chalk ain't gonna help.
And every method I could find online has been tried and re-tried, in
various combinations and orders, several times. Big Apples simply won't
fit properly on Sun BFR rims.


I've no experience with that equipment but have you tried mounting the
tyre without a tube and rimtape?

I'll just have to use what I can find, at this point I doubt I'd find
anything quite like the "real thing" and making it myself doesn't sound
very practical.


Well the *alternative I see are to either beg at the door of a tyre
factory / look in their waste or salvage from used tyres including
motorcycle and sports car tyres, you'll be lookin at the side wall for
v=clues.. * So if you know of any domestic tyre manufacturers, perhaps
you could approach them for assembled casinggs or offcuts of casing
material.


Ha ha,,, -that's a good one.
Are there any tire companies that /aren't/ in China?
~


England, NI, Eire , France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy. Yes there
is.

 




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