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Tire Making, episode four



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 15th 10, 05:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DougC
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Posts: 1,276
Default Tire Making, episode four

On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote:
......
That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
tires in any other color than black. White knobby tires on children's
bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
standard of fashion for the little tykes.
......


No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.

The introduction of inert fillers was to stiffen the rubber and improve
its wear characteristics; the natural rubber also needed colorants in
order to try to help protect it from UV damage from sunlight. Carbon
black is one of a very-few fillers that can effectively do both jobs at
the same time--but then, iron oxide seemed to be another.

Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
black instead? Salmon Kool-Stops have a pretty good reputation far and
wide, yet we see no red-colored modern performance car tires. ?:|

?
~


Ads
  #2  
Old January 15th 10, 07:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Tire Making, episode four

On 15 Jan, 04:54, DougC wrote:
On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote:

......
That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
tires in any other color than black. *White knobby tires on children's
bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
standard of fashion for the little tykes.
......


No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.


Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip
better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. Fillers had to be used
because raw latex was and is expensive, fillers also not only reduce
cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due
to temperature fluctuations. With heat, the latex will crumb and not
provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate.


The introduction of inert fillers was to stiffen the rubber and improve
its wear characteristics; the natural rubber also needed colorants in
order to try to help protect it from UV damage from sunlight. Carbon
black is one of a very-few fillers that can effectively do both jobs at
the same time--but then, iron oxide seemed to be another.


as does zinc oxide.


Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
black instead?


Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady
revenue from replacements.

Salmon Kool-Stops have a pretty good reputation far and
wide, yet we see no red-colored modern performance car tires. ?:|

?


Who wants to buy a car with four corners of rust?
  #3  
Old January 15th 10, 08:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected][_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 214
Default Tire Making, episode four

On Jan 14, 9:54*pm, DougC wrote:
On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote:

......
That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
tires in any other color than black. *White knobby tires on children's
bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
standard of fashion for the little tykes.
......


No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.



Dear Doug,

The combination of carbon black and natural rubber was known to have
poorer wet grip than more modern compounds at least as far back as
1985:

http://tinyurl.com/ydunnws

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
  #4  
Old January 15th 10, 10:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,093
Default Tire Making, episode four

thirty-six wrote:

DougC wrote:

No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.


Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip
better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. *Fillers had to be used
because raw latex was and is expensive,


drugs

fillers also not only reduce
cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due
to temperature fluctuations. *With heat, the latex will crumb and not
provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate.


Huh? If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber,
track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. But they
don't.

Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
black instead?


Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady
revenue from replacements.


Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? Because in my
observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black
pads.

Chalo
  #5  
Old January 15th 10, 02:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Tire Making, episode four

On 15 Jan, 07:01, "
wrote:
On Jan 14, 9:54*pm, DougC wrote:

On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote:


......
That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is
well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto
tires in any other color than black. *White knobby tires on children's
bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a
standard of fashion for the little tykes.
......


No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.


Dear Doug,

The combination of carbon black and natural rubber was known to have
poorer wet grip than more modern compounds at least as far back as
1985:

*http://tinyurl.com/ydunnws


and those compounds which are successful in improving wet grip also
result in greater rolling resistance, so the tread has to be made
thinner to compensate.

  #6  
Old January 15th 10, 07:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Tire Making, episode four

On 15 Jan, 15:58, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Doug Cimper wrote:
... *That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet
traction is well known and the reason why you don't see high
performance auto tires in any other color than black. *White knobby
tires on children's bicycles don't wear long or corner well
anywhere, but they are a standard of fashion for the little tykes.
...

No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? *I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.


The details of it escape me now but I recall a few years ago when
Specialized supplied the US 7-11 Racing team in Europe with "Umma
Gumma" non black tires with which they had so many crashes in the wet
that they switched back to their previous black tires. *The issue was
discussed at length in the news that we read in wreck.bike. *I found
it interesting and assumed the issue was adequately explained.

You must have noticed that no high performance tire is without carbon
black, for motor vehicles or bicycles although colored tires are seen
on bicycles where hard cornering in the rain is not a standard
procedure. *That is why the advertising pictu

*http://tinyurl.com/p3f2y

and one in the rain at Emerald Bay Lake Tahoe were made.

The introduction of inert fillers was to stiffen the rubber and
improve its wear characteristics; the natural rubber also needed
colorants in order to try to help protect it from UV damage from
sunlight. *Carbon black is one of a very-few fillers that can
effectively do both jobs at the same time--but then, iron oxide
seemed to be another.
Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why
else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and
not carbon black instead? Salmon Kool-Stops have a pretty good
reputation far and wide, yet we see no red-colored modern
performance car tires. ?:|


I think this explanation needs some reference report as well, it
conflicting with the information I have read in the past on this issue
that included an article about how carbon black became introduced to
tire making in the first place. *I was satisfied the issue had been
discussed adequately at the time.

Jobst Brandt


you forgot to mention:
Aluminum nipples
Drag of aero wheels
Avocet dirt tires
Bias ply
Blowouts
Flat tires
Glass punctures
Inflation constriction force
Inner tube evacuation
Inner tube patching
Inner tube ridges
Inner tube stem fail
Inner tubes
Kevlar
Machine-built wheels
Nipple failure
Overly swaged spokes
Paired spokes
Presta valves
Pretzeled rims
Rim compatibility
Rim bending
Rim cracking
Rim heat
Rim noise
Rim tape / rim strips
Rim wear
Rims
Rolling resistance
Rotating mass
Slicks
Spinergy
Spoke count
Spoke lube
Spoke reuse
Spoke tightening
Spoke tone when plucked
Spoke twist
Spokes
Stress relieving wheels
Tensiometers
Tire aging
Tire boots
Tire braid angle
Tire color Tire cords
Tire directional tread
Tire sealants
Tire makers
Tire pressure
Tire recommendation
Tire roll-off
Tire talc
Tire wear
Track glue
Truing
Truing stands
Tubular making
Tubulars
Tying-and-soldering
Wet brakes
Wheel balancing
Wheel building
Wheel drag
Wheel longevity
Wheel side force
Wheel size
Wheel stresses

or dark glasses. what about black ties?
  #7  
Old January 15th 10, 07:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Tire Making, episode four

Chalo wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
DougC wrote:
No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.

Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip
better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. Fillers had to be used
because raw latex was and is expensive,


drugs

fillers also not only reduce
cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due
to temperature fluctuations. With heat, the latex will crumb and not
provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate.


Huh? If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber,
track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. But they
don't.

Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
black instead?

Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady
revenue from replacements.


Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? Because in my
observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black
pads.

Chalo


I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1
and #2 pista tubs were offered in white latex tread on open
silk casings. Sold and performed well when they were
available to us.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #8  
Old January 15th 10, 07:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Tire Making, episode four

On 15 Jan, 18:10, AMuzi wrote:
Chalo wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
DougC wrote:
No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.
Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip
better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. *Fillers had to be used
because raw latex was and is expensive,


drugs


fillers also not only reduce
cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due
to temperature fluctuations. *With heat, the latex will crumb and not
provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate.


Huh? *If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber,
track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. *But they
don't.


Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else
would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon
black instead?
Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady
revenue from replacements.


Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? *Because in my
observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black
pads.


Chalo


I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1
and #2 pista tubs were offered in white latex tread on open
silk casings. Sold and performed well when they were
available to us.


White strips? Latex is generally clear or nearly so in thin
sections.
  #9  
Old January 15th 10, 10:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Tire Making, episode four

Jobst Brandt wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:

No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.


Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres
grip better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. Fillers had to
be used because raw latex was and is expensive, drugs fillers also
not only reduce cost but stabilize the rubber product against
stability problems due to temperature fluctuations. With heat, the
latex will crumb and not provide the dry traction required, or
economical wear rate.


Huh? If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled
rubber, track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires.
But they don't.


Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does;
why else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads,
and not carbon black instead?


Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide
steady revenue from replacements.


Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? Because in my
observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black
pads.


I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1 and #2
"pista" tubs were offered in white latex tread on open silk casings.
Sold and performed well when they were available to us.


Track tires of that type were made for minimum RR rather than
cornering. You may have noticed that tracks are banked so that
cornering is not one of the skills required, wet or dry. The curve
banking requiring a minimum speed to keep the pedal from grounding,
keeping the lean angle within the ability of a latex tread. Those
latex tread track tires were miserable on roads because they wore out
in a hurry and didn't corner on wet roads worth considering.

Jobst Brandt


Much agreed.

I seem to be short of clarity this week, I was responding to
Chalo's comment:
"... If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled
rubber, track racers or time trialists would use plain latex
tires. But they don't."

Well, they 'did'. Now they 'cannot'. So 'they don't' lacks
much meaning.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #10  
Old January 15th 10, 11:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Tire Making, episode four

On 15 Jan, 19:46, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:
No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet
traction? *I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far.
Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres
grip better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. *Fillers had to
be used because raw latex was and is expensive, drugs fillers also
not only reduce cost but stabilize the rubber product against
stability problems due to temperature fluctuations. *With heat, the
latex will crumb and not provide the dry traction required, or
economical wear rate.
Huh? *If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled
rubber, track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires.
But they don't.
Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does;
why else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads,
and not carbon black instead?
Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide
steady revenue from replacements.
Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? *Because in my
observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black
pads.

I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1 and #2
"pista" tubs were offered in white latex tread on open silk casings.
Sold and performed well when they were available to us.


Track tires of that type were made for minimum RR rather than
cornering. *


Which will be their ultra thin tread, latex would suit so as to
generate some heat in such a thin tread.

You may have noticed that tracks are banked so that
cornering is not one of the skills required, wet or dry. *The curve
banking requiring a minimum speed to keep the pedal from grounding,
keeping the lean angle within the ability of a latex tread. *Those
latex tread track tires were miserable on roads because they wore out
in a hurry and didn't corner on wet roads worth considering.


That will be because of their narrow section and extreme pressure to
prevent road bumping shortens the contact patch so as to reduce
available cornering force. This occurs with all narrow section tyres
taken to extreme pressure. With a more normal section width the tyre
contact patch can be twice as long as a 3/4" tyre on the same wheel
rim.
 




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