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Carbon Bikes and Quality Control



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 31st 17, 02:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Carbon Bikes and Quality Control

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 4:58:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 11:20:29 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:32:10 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
Note to Tom: stop buying Colnagos.

So most of those repairs are to other bikes but Colnago is more dangerous?

Most of the other bikes are breaking under 150 lb riders that do 1,000 miles a year but a Colnago breaking under a 190 lb rider that does 6,000 miles a year is taking a more dangerous chance?


I know of no one who has broken as many CF forks of the same brand as you. You even have friends who broke Colnagos.

I broke a bunch of Cannondale aluminum frames, but they didn't drop me on my face. They had frame cracks and no fork failures. I weigh more than you and ride more miles annually (although on several different bikes) and have never broken a fork. Not saying I won't, but if I were breaking Cannondale forks (for example), I'd buy Trek or Specialized -- and a better health plan.


That's strange because I only broke one Colnago fork. The others were Look and IRD. And it was the IRD that dropped me on my face. So you count one as "more than anyone"?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Brok...bUCkWlel17MJM:

"Cannondale - doesn't offer a Limited Lifetime Warranty because their bikes fail (crack as you put it) on a regular basis."

" was commuting to work on my carbon fiber cannondale synapse. I had just climbed a very short hill, coasted for a bit, and on my next pedal stroke by bike came to an immediate and abrupt complete stope. Fortunately, I was only going about 8mph and was able to click out of the pedals without crashing. Upon inspection, my rear derailluer was firmly jammed into the rear wheel and spokes as well as into the rear cassette. I thought the derailleur hanger had broken.

I took the bike to the shop where I purchased the bike (Old Town Bikes, Olympia, WA.) They were able to pry the rear wheel away and get the derailluer out of the spokes. Upon their inspection, the dearailleur hanger had not broken but had torn through the carbon fiber rear dropouts. The result... carbon fiber frame us now useless. The bike shop submitted a claim to Cannondale. Cannondale came back with their decision today and said they would offer me 20 percent off for crash replacement. I explained, there was no crash where the bike was damaged. Plus, nearly all bikes are reduced 20 percent off for the new models coming in... their "offer" was really no offer at all."

"I was washing my bike the other day and noticed a crack under the crown of the fork of my supersix, opposite where the tire spins. I have no idea how this could have happened, as I didn't crash"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prdqBNPhMFk

Yeah, you're safe as hell on a Cannondale because you haven't been hurt yet.


I didn't say that. I said, if I had a bunch of forks that broke, I would stop buying the brand.

With Cannondale, customer service has been great. They warrantied all of my broken frames except one -- a 1986 frame that I wore out twenty-five years later. It basically fell apart, but I still didn't get dropped on my face.. I don't know what the Cannondale customer service is like now that the company has been sold, but it was good in years past. I think a lot of it has to do with the local rep and the shop -- and customer honesty. If they screwed with me, I'd jump to Trek or Specialized. I have a Roubaix. My son loves his Emonda -- which may be too light for a carbon questioner like me.


I do question carbon. I'm not a risk taker. I'm on blood thinners because of a ski injury years ago (and a couple nasty pulmonary embolisms). I would prefer not to fall on my head again. If I had forks breaking, I probably would go to steel like you -- and then when I broke one of those, I'd go to a recumbent, which would immediately trigger a suicide pact I have with my best riding buddy. "If I show up on one of those, shoot me." "Me, too." So, if I broke a steel fork, I would die -- of a gun shot wound.

-- Jay Beattie.







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  #22  
Old May 31st 17, 03:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Default Carbon Bikes and Quality Control

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 9:16:30 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
With Cannondale, customer service has been great. They warrantied all of my broken frames except one -- a 1986 frame that I wore out twenty-five years later. It basically fell apart, but I still didn't get dropped on my face. I don't know what the Cannondale customer service is like now that the company has been sold, but it was good in years past. I think a lot of it has to do with the local rep and the shop -- and customer honesty. If they screwed with me, I'd jump to Trek or Specialized. I have a Roubaix. My son loves his Emonda -- which may be too light for a carbon questioner like me.


I do question carbon. I'm not a risk taker. I'm on blood thinners because of a ski injury years ago (and a couple nasty pulmonary embolisms). I would prefer not to fall on my head again. If I had forks breaking, I probably would go to steel like you -- and then when I broke one of those, I'd go to a recumbent, which would immediately trigger a suicide pact I have with my best riding buddy. "If I show up on one of those, shoot me." "Me, too." So, if I broke a steel fork, I would die -- of a gun shot wound.

-- Jay Beattie.


I don't know about Cannondale but I do know that Park Tools changed from their "Lifetime warranty" to if it breaks you're SOL!. At least that was my experience with them with a couple of tools that brke after VERY LITTLE use. Therefore I've moved to tools NOT made by Park Tools.

As far a bicycle service goes, I don't depend on that up here because far too many shops go out of business and then you can't get the service.

A lifetime frame warranty is only as good as the company's willingness to stand behind it.

Cheers
  #23  
Old May 31st 17, 03:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Carbon Bikes and Quality Control

On Tue, 30 May 2017 18:16:28 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 4:58:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 11:20:29 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:32:10 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
Note to Tom: stop buying Colnagos.

So most of those repairs are to other bikes but Colnago is more dangerous?

Most of the other bikes are breaking under 150 lb riders that do 1,000 miles a year but a Colnago breaking under a 190 lb rider that does 6,000 miles a year is taking a more dangerous chance?

I know of no one who has broken as many CF forks of the same brand as you. You even have friends who broke Colnagos.

I broke a bunch of Cannondale aluminum frames, but they didn't drop me on my face. They had frame cracks and no fork failures. I weigh more than you and ride more miles annually (although on several different bikes) and have never broken a fork. Not saying I won't, but if I were breaking Cannondale forks (for example), I'd buy Trek or Specialized -- and a better health plan.


That's strange because I only broke one Colnago fork. The others were Look and IRD. And it was the IRD that dropped me on my face. So you count one as "more than anyone"?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Brok...bUCkWlel17MJM:

"Cannondale - doesn't offer a Limited Lifetime Warranty because their bikes fail (crack as you put it) on a regular basis."

" was commuting to work on my carbon fiber cannondale synapse. I had just climbed a very short hill, coasted for a bit, and on my next pedal stroke by bike came to an immediate and abrupt complete stope. Fortunately, I was only going about 8mph and was able to click out of the pedals without crashing. Upon inspection, my rear derailluer was firmly jammed into the rear wheel and spokes as well as into the rear cassette. I thought the derailleur hanger had broken.

I took the bike to the shop where I purchased the bike (Old Town Bikes, Olympia, WA.) They were able to pry the rear wheel away and get the derailluer out of the spokes. Upon their inspection, the dearailleur hanger had not broken but had torn through the carbon fiber rear dropouts. The result... carbon fiber frame us now useless. The bike shop submitted a claim to Cannondale. Cannondale came back with their decision today and said they would offer me 20 percent off for crash replacement. I explained, there was no crash where the bike was damaged. Plus, nearly all bikes are reduced 20 percent off for the new models coming in... their "offer" was really no offer at all."

"I was washing my bike the other day and noticed a crack under the crown of the fork of my supersix, opposite where the tire spins. I have no idea how this could have happened, as I didn't crash"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prdqBNPhMFk

Yeah, you're safe as hell on a Cannondale because you haven't been hurt yet.


I didn't say that. I said, if I had a bunch of forks that broke, I would stop buying the brand.

With Cannondale, customer service has been great. They warrantied all of my broken frames except one -- a 1986 frame that I wore out twenty-five years later. It basically fell apart, but I still didn't get dropped on my face. I don't know what the Cannondale customer service is like now that the company has been sold, but it was good in years past. I think a lot of it has to do with the local rep and the shop -- and customer honesty. If they screwed with me, I'd jump to Trek or Specialized. I have a Roubaix. My son loves his Emonda -- which may be too light for a carbon questioner like me.


I do question carbon. I'm not a risk taker. I'm on blood thinners because of a ski injury years ago (and a couple nasty pulmonary embolisms). I would prefer not to fall on my head again. If I had forks breaking, I probably would go to steel like you -- and then when I broke one of those, I'd go to a recumbent, which would immediately trigger a suicide pact I have with my best riding buddy. "If I show up on one of those, shoot me." "Me, too." So, if I broke a steel fork, I would die -- of a gun shot wound.

-- Jay Beattie.


Another question. Have any of your broken bikes just broken? Never
crashed, never dropped the bike, never had anything caught in the
spokes, never had any problems. Just riding along and it suddenly
broke?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #24  
Old May 31st 17, 03:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Carbon Bikes and Quality Control

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 5:10:23 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/30/2017 4:58 PM, wrote:

snip

The bike shop submitted a claim to Cannondale. Cannondale came back with
their decision today and said they would offer me 20 percent off for
crash replacement.
This is how a "lifetime warranty" often ends up. It's really no warranty
at all. They get to decide if the defect was because of a design or
fabrication issue, or if it was due to something that they are not
responsible for. They know that the likelihood of a customer pursuing it
further is unlikely. They probably have some arbitration clause so you
couldn't sue them in small claims court, and the cost of arbitration is
more than the frame is worth.


I had this with something as stupid as "My Pillow". I was itching all the time so I was afraid that I had gotten bed bugs. (turned out to be old age) I washed the My Pillow as they say you can and after three dryer cycles it still wasn't dry. I put it out in the sun on a hot day all day long. It felt dry do I put it on my bed and the next time I went to change the pillow case it was mildewed.

I called the company and had to argue with them for 20 minutes before they agreed to replace it with their "Lifetime Guarantee".
  #25  
Old May 31st 17, 03:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Carbon Bikes and Quality Control

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 6:10:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/30/2017 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 11:20:29 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:32:10 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
Note to Tom: stop buying Colnagos.

So most of those repairs are to other bikes but Colnago is more dangerous?

Most of the other bikes are breaking under 150 lb riders that do 1,000 miles a year but a Colnago breaking under a 190 lb rider that does 6,000 miles a year is taking a more dangerous chance?

I know of no one who has broken as many CF forks of the same brand as you. You even have friends who broke Colnagos.

I broke a bunch of Cannondale aluminum frames, but they didn't drop me on my face. They had frame cracks and no fork failures. I weigh more than you and ride more miles annually (although on several different bikes) and have never broken a fork. Not saying I won't, but if I were breaking Cannondale forks (for example), I'd buy Trek or Specialized -- and a better health plan.


That's strange because I only broke one Colnago fork. The others were Look and IRD. And it was the IRD that dropped me on my face. So you count one as "more than anyone"?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Brok...bUCkWlel17MJM:

"Cannondale - doesn't offer a Limited Lifetime Warranty because their bikes fail (crack as you put it) on a regular basis."

" was commuting to work on my carbon fiber cannondale synapse. I had just climbed a very short hill, coasted for a bit, and on my next pedal stroke by bike came to an immediate and abrupt complete stope. Fortunately, I was only going about 8mph and was able to click out of the pedals without crashing. Upon inspection, my rear derailluer was firmly jammed into the rear wheel and spokes as well as into the rear cassette. I thought the derailleur hanger had broken.

I took the bike to the shop where I purchased the bike (Old Town Bikes, Olympia, WA.) They were able to pry the rear wheel away and get the derailluer out of the spokes. Upon their inspection, the dearailleur hanger had not broken but had torn through the carbon fiber rear dropouts. The result.... carbon fiber frame us now useless. The bike shop submitted a claim to Cannondale. Cannondale came back with their decision today and said they would offer me 20 percent off for crash replacement. I explained, there was no crash where the bike was damaged. Plus, nearly all bikes are reduced 20 percent off for the new models coming in... their "offer" was really no offer at all."

"I was washing my bike the other day and noticed a crack under the crown of the fork of my supersix, opposite where the tire spins. I have no idea how this could have happened, as I didn't crash"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prdqBNPhMFk

Yeah, you're safe as hell on a Cannondale because you haven't been hurt yet.


I disagree about one of those examples.

A gear changer in the spokes is not a frame defect. It's an
installation/adjustment/abuse error, far outside the frame
maker's responsibility.

It _may_ be the shop's error, then again it may not be.
That's commonly normal user abuse, such as throwing the bike
gear-down in the back of a pickup or some such. One might
argue (without conclusion usually) between mechanic setup
and user error but it's not the frame maker's problem at any
rate.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I would agree but apparently the derailleur went into the spokes not because of an improper assembly but because the seat stay broke and the chain stay twisted.
  #26  
Old May 31st 17, 03:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,345
Default Carbon Bikes and Quality Control

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 6:16:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 4:58:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 11:20:29 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:32:10 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
Note to Tom: stop buying Colnagos.

So most of those repairs are to other bikes but Colnago is more dangerous?

Most of the other bikes are breaking under 150 lb riders that do 1,000 miles a year but a Colnago breaking under a 190 lb rider that does 6,000 miles a year is taking a more dangerous chance?

I know of no one who has broken as many CF forks of the same brand as you. You even have friends who broke Colnagos.

I broke a bunch of Cannondale aluminum frames, but they didn't drop me on my face. They had frame cracks and no fork failures. I weigh more than you and ride more miles annually (although on several different bikes) and have never broken a fork. Not saying I won't, but if I were breaking Cannondale forks (for example), I'd buy Trek or Specialized -- and a better health plan.


That's strange because I only broke one Colnago fork. The others were Look and IRD. And it was the IRD that dropped me on my face. So you count one as "more than anyone"?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Brok...bUCkWlel17MJM:

"Cannondale - doesn't offer a Limited Lifetime Warranty because their bikes fail (crack as you put it) on a regular basis."

" was commuting to work on my carbon fiber cannondale synapse. I had just climbed a very short hill, coasted for a bit, and on my next pedal stroke by bike came to an immediate and abrupt complete stope. Fortunately, I was only going about 8mph and was able to click out of the pedals without crashing. Upon inspection, my rear derailluer was firmly jammed into the rear wheel and spokes as well as into the rear cassette. I thought the derailleur hanger had broken.

I took the bike to the shop where I purchased the bike (Old Town Bikes, Olympia, WA.) They were able to pry the rear wheel away and get the derailluer out of the spokes. Upon their inspection, the dearailleur hanger had not broken but had torn through the carbon fiber rear dropouts. The result.... carbon fiber frame us now useless. The bike shop submitted a claim to Cannondale. Cannondale came back with their decision today and said they would offer me 20 percent off for crash replacement. I explained, there was no crash where the bike was damaged. Plus, nearly all bikes are reduced 20 percent off for the new models coming in... their "offer" was really no offer at all."

"I was washing my bike the other day and noticed a crack under the crown of the fork of my supersix, opposite where the tire spins. I have no idea how this could have happened, as I didn't crash"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prdqBNPhMFk

Yeah, you're safe as hell on a Cannondale because you haven't been hurt yet.


I didn't say that. I said, if I had a bunch of forks that broke, I would stop buying the brand.

With Cannondale, customer service has been great. They warrantied all of my broken frames except one -- a 1986 frame that I wore out twenty-five years later. It basically fell apart, but I still didn't get dropped on my face. I don't know what the Cannondale customer service is like now that the company has been sold, but it was good in years past. I think a lot of it has to do with the local rep and the shop -- and customer honesty. If they screwed with me, I'd jump to Trek or Specialized. I have a Roubaix. My son loves his Emonda -- which may be too light for a carbon questioner like me.


I do question carbon. I'm not a risk taker. I'm on blood thinners because of a ski injury years ago (and a couple nasty pulmonary embolisms). I would prefer not to fall on my head again. If I had forks breaking, I probably would go to steel like you -- and then when I broke one of those, I'd go to a recumbent, which would immediately trigger a suicide pact I have with my best riding buddy. "If I show up on one of those, shoot me." "Me, too." So, if I broke a steel fork, I would die -- of a gun shot wound.

-- Jay Beattie.


Look Jay - the cause of my injury was the IRD fork and it was because of spectacularly bad assembly. The fork had an aluminum fork head and the legs were glues on. While the resin was drying the blades were held in place with a large rivet. The fork I had only was glued on one side and IRD wasn't held responsible because although they sell components world wide, they claimed that they didn't mean for these forks to be sold in America and hadn't advertised them here.

This was a clear case of irresponsible conduct of a company and they couldn't be held to it. And yet responsible companies that do everything possible to hold the highest quality standards are sued out of business all the time because of failures that are totally unpredictable.
  #27  
Old May 31st 17, 03:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
Default Carbon Bikes and Quality Control

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 7:07:26 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 9:16:30 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
With Cannondale, customer service has been great. They warrantied all of my broken frames except one -- a 1986 frame that I wore out twenty-five years later. It basically fell apart, but I still didn't get dropped on my face. I don't know what the Cannondale customer service is like now that the company has been sold, but it was good in years past. I think a lot of it has to do with the local rep and the shop -- and customer honesty. If they screwed with me, I'd jump to Trek or Specialized. I have a Roubaix. My son loves his Emonda -- which may be too light for a carbon questioner like me.


I do question carbon. I'm not a risk taker. I'm on blood thinners because of a ski injury years ago (and a couple nasty pulmonary embolisms). I would prefer not to fall on my head again. If I had forks breaking, I probably would go to steel like you -- and then when I broke one of those, I'd go to a recumbent, which would immediately trigger a suicide pact I have with my best riding buddy. "If I show up on one of those, shoot me." "Me, too." So, if I broke a steel fork, I would die -- of a gun shot wound.

-- Jay Beattie.


I don't know about Cannondale but I do know that Park Tools changed from their "Lifetime warranty" to if it breaks you're SOL!. At least that was my experience with them with a couple of tools that brke after VERY LITTLE use. Therefore I've moved to tools NOT made by Park Tools.

As far a bicycle service goes, I don't depend on that up here because far too many shops go out of business and then you can't get the service.

A lifetime frame warranty is only as good as the company's willingness to stand behind it.

Cheers


I've moved away from Park hand tools a long time ago because most of them are junk. Even their cassette removal tools which should never wear out are made of such poor quality steel that the edges wear off on the first use.
  #28  
Old May 31st 17, 07:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Carbon Bikes and Quality Control

On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 7:46:33 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 6:16:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 4:58:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 11:20:29 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:32:10 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
Note to Tom: stop buying Colnagos.

So most of those repairs are to other bikes but Colnago is more dangerous?

Most of the other bikes are breaking under 150 lb riders that do 1,000 miles a year but a Colnago breaking under a 190 lb rider that does 6,000 miles a year is taking a more dangerous chance?

I know of no one who has broken as many CF forks of the same brand as you. You even have friends who broke Colnagos.

I broke a bunch of Cannondale aluminum frames, but they didn't drop me on my face. They had frame cracks and no fork failures. I weigh more than you and ride more miles annually (although on several different bikes) and have never broken a fork. Not saying I won't, but if I were breaking Cannondale forks (for example), I'd buy Trek or Specialized -- and a better health plan.

That's strange because I only broke one Colnago fork. The others were Look and IRD. And it was the IRD that dropped me on my face. So you count one as "more than anyone"?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Brok...bUCkWlel17MJM:

"Cannondale - doesn't offer a Limited Lifetime Warranty because their bikes fail (crack as you put it) on a regular basis."

" was commuting to work on my carbon fiber cannondale synapse. I had just climbed a very short hill, coasted for a bit, and on my next pedal stroke by bike came to an immediate and abrupt complete stope. Fortunately, I was only going about 8mph and was able to click out of the pedals without crashing. Upon inspection, my rear derailluer was firmly jammed into the rear wheel and spokes as well as into the rear cassette. I thought the derailleur hanger had broken.

I took the bike to the shop where I purchased the bike (Old Town Bikes, Olympia, WA.) They were able to pry the rear wheel away and get the derailluer out of the spokes. Upon their inspection, the dearailleur hanger had not broken but had torn through the carbon fiber rear dropouts. The result.... carbon fiber frame us now useless. The bike shop submitted a claim to Cannondale. Cannondale came back with their decision today and said they would offer me 20 percent off for crash replacement. I explained, there was no crash where the bike was damaged. Plus, nearly all bikes are reduced 20 percent off for the new models coming in... their "offer" was really no offer at all."

"I was washing my bike the other day and noticed a crack under the crown of the fork of my supersix, opposite where the tire spins. I have no idea how this could have happened, as I didn't crash"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prdqBNPhMFk

Yeah, you're safe as hell on a Cannondale because you haven't been hurt yet.


I didn't say that. I said, if I had a bunch of forks that broke, I would stop buying the brand.

With Cannondale, customer service has been great. They warrantied all of my broken frames except one -- a 1986 frame that I wore out twenty-five years later. It basically fell apart, but I still didn't get dropped on my face. I don't know what the Cannondale customer service is like now that the company has been sold, but it was good in years past. I think a lot of it has to do with the local rep and the shop -- and customer honesty. If they screwed with me, I'd jump to Trek or Specialized. I have a Roubaix. My son loves his Emonda -- which may be too light for a carbon questioner like me.


I do question carbon. I'm not a risk taker. I'm on blood thinners because of a ski injury years ago (and a couple nasty pulmonary embolisms). I would prefer not to fall on my head again. If I had forks breaking, I probably would go to steel like you -- and then when I broke one of those, I'd go to a recumbent, which would immediately trigger a suicide pact I have with my best riding buddy. "If I show up on one of those, shoot me." "Me, too." So, if I broke a steel fork, I would die -- of a gun shot wound.

-- Jay Beattie.


Look Jay - the cause of my injury was the IRD fork and it was because of spectacularly bad assembly. The fork had an aluminum fork head and the legs were glues on. While the resin was drying the blades were held in place with a large rivet. The fork I had only was glued on one side and IRD wasn't held responsible because although they sell components world wide, they claimed that they didn't mean for these forks to be sold in America and hadn't advertised them here.

This was a clear case of irresponsible conduct of a company and they couldn't be held to it. And yet responsible companies that do everything possible to hold the highest quality standards are sued out of business all the time because of failures that are totally unpredictable.


What bike had the IRD forks? The bike manufacturer is responsible for the failure of OE forks, as is the LBS. IRD may have a clever jurisdictional argument to avoid suit in a particular personal injury action, but it has a contract with the bike manufacturer who can sue for indemnity. It will get hit eventually as everyone sues upstream.

Good bike manufacturers police their vendors and the insurers for their vendors, although there is not a lot of policing you can do with some of the Chinese insurers. Policing is generally boots on the ground at the factory and testing. Companies that source from China typically have someone minding the manufacturing process.

One-off failures will happen -- its a statistical certainty, and I'm sorry you got injured -- really. It sucks to be on the wrong side of a statistic.

-- Jay Beattie.


  #29  
Old May 31st 17, 07:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
Default Carbon Bikes and Quality Control

On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 11:25:15 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 7:46:33 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 6:16:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 4:58:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 11:20:29 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:32:10 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
Note to Tom: stop buying Colnagos.

So most of those repairs are to other bikes but Colnago is more dangerous?

Most of the other bikes are breaking under 150 lb riders that do 1,000 miles a year but a Colnago breaking under a 190 lb rider that does 6,000 miles a year is taking a more dangerous chance?

I know of no one who has broken as many CF forks of the same brand as you. You even have friends who broke Colnagos.

I broke a bunch of Cannondale aluminum frames, but they didn't drop me on my face. They had frame cracks and no fork failures. I weigh more than you and ride more miles annually (although on several different bikes) and have never broken a fork. Not saying I won't, but if I were breaking Cannondale forks (for example), I'd buy Trek or Specialized -- and a better health plan.

That's strange because I only broke one Colnago fork. The others were Look and IRD. And it was the IRD that dropped me on my face. So you count one as "more than anyone"?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Brok...bUCkWlel17MJM:

"Cannondale - doesn't offer a Limited Lifetime Warranty because their bikes fail (crack as you put it) on a regular basis."

" was commuting to work on my carbon fiber cannondale synapse. I had just climbed a very short hill, coasted for a bit, and on my next pedal stroke by bike came to an immediate and abrupt complete stope. Fortunately, I was only going about 8mph and was able to click out of the pedals without crashing. Upon inspection, my rear derailluer was firmly jammed into the rear wheel and spokes as well as into the rear cassette. I thought the derailleur hanger had broken.

I took the bike to the shop where I purchased the bike (Old Town Bikes, Olympia, WA.) They were able to pry the rear wheel away and get the derailluer out of the spokes. Upon their inspection, the dearailleur hanger had not broken but had torn through the carbon fiber rear dropouts. The result... carbon fiber frame us now useless. The bike shop submitted a claim to Cannondale. Cannondale came back with their decision today and said they would offer me 20 percent off for crash replacement. I explained, there was no crash where the bike was damaged. Plus, nearly all bikes are reduced 20 percent off for the new models coming in... their "offer" was really no offer at all."

"I was washing my bike the other day and noticed a crack under the crown of the fork of my supersix, opposite where the tire spins. I have no idea how this could have happened, as I didn't crash"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prdqBNPhMFk

Yeah, you're safe as hell on a Cannondale because you haven't been hurt yet.

I didn't say that. I said, if I had a bunch of forks that broke, I would stop buying the brand.

With Cannondale, customer service has been great. They warrantied all of my broken frames except one -- a 1986 frame that I wore out twenty-five years later. It basically fell apart, but I still didn't get dropped on my face. I don't know what the Cannondale customer service is like now that the company has been sold, but it was good in years past. I think a lot of it has to do with the local rep and the shop -- and customer honesty. If they screwed with me, I'd jump to Trek or Specialized. I have a Roubaix. My son loves his Emonda -- which may be too light for a carbon questioner like me.


I do question carbon. I'm not a risk taker. I'm on blood thinners because of a ski injury years ago (and a couple nasty pulmonary embolisms). I would prefer not to fall on my head again. If I had forks breaking, I probably would go to steel like you -- and then when I broke one of those, I'd go to a recumbent, which would immediately trigger a suicide pact I have with my best riding buddy. "If I show up on one of those, shoot me." "Me, too." So, if I broke a steel fork, I would die -- of a gun shot wound.

-- Jay Beattie.


Look Jay - the cause of my injury was the IRD fork and it was because of spectacularly bad assembly. The fork had an aluminum fork head and the legs were glues on. While the resin was drying the blades were held in place with a large rivet. The fork I had only was glued on one side and IRD wasn't held responsible because although they sell components world wide, they claimed that they didn't mean for these forks to be sold in America and hadn't advertised them here.

This was a clear case of irresponsible conduct of a company and they couldn't be held to it. And yet responsible companies that do everything possible to hold the highest quality standards are sued out of business all the time because of failures that are totally unpredictable.


What bike had the IRD forks? The bike manufacturer is responsible for the failure of OE forks, as is the LBS. IRD may have a clever jurisdictional argument to avoid suit in a particular personal injury action, but it has a contract with the bike manufacturer who can sue for indemnity. It will get hit eventually as everyone sues upstream.

Good bike manufacturers police their vendors and the insurers for their vendors, although there is not a lot of policing you can do with some of the Chinese insurers. Policing is generally boots on the ground at the factory and testing. Companies that source from China typically have someone minding the manufacturing process.

One-off failures will happen -- its a statistical certainty, and I'm sorry you got injured -- really. It sucks to be on the wrong side of a statistic.


Where are you coming from with that? My Look fork broke and no injuries occurred. Look did not offer replacement forks for that model. I bought an IRD fork off of the Internet. Since they are an Italian company they felt no need to entertain American tort laws.
  #30  
Old May 31st 17, 07:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,424
Default Carbon Bikes and Quality Control

On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 7:37:40 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 5:10:23 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/30/2017 4:58 PM, wrote:

snip

The bike shop submitted a claim to Cannondale. Cannondale came back with
their decision today and said they would offer me 20 percent off for
crash replacement.
This is how a "lifetime warranty" often ends up. It's really no warranty
at all. They get to decide if the defect was because of a design or
fabrication issue, or if it was due to something that they are not
responsible for. They know that the likelihood of a customer pursuing it
further is unlikely. They probably have some arbitration clause so you
couldn't sue them in small claims court, and the cost of arbitration is
more than the frame is worth.


I had this with something as stupid as "My Pillow". I was itching all the time so I was afraid that I had gotten bed bugs. (turned out to be old age) I washed the My Pillow as they say you can and after three dryer cycles it still wasn't dry. I put it out in the sun on a hot day all day long. It felt dry do I put it on my bed and the next time I went to change the pillow case it was mildewed.

I called the company and had to argue with them for 20 minutes before they agreed to replace it with their "Lifetime Guarantee".


Dude...dude...TomBroDude...
 




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