ISIS getting dropped?

says...
I am amazed how few shops here in the 'republic' have BB
facing tools. Only three that know of, only two with Italian and
english.

Alex Rodriguez wrote:
Maybe frames are coming better prepped straight from the factory?

Chalo wrote:
"Italian" frames are made in the Far East now, where manufacturers can
be held to decent standards for finish and tolerances.

In my bike shop days, the only frames I saw that were not fit to build
up as supplied were those from Italian, umm, "craftsmen".

I would not be surprised to find that some other frames coming from
makers with Mystical Traditions also needed to be finished by the
retailer. But all the mass-market frames I ever saw were good to go,
as were the fancy USA-made frames with somebody's name on the downtube.

I'd like to hear from some of the old-timers on this. Did Mercian,
Hetchins, Singer, Herse, or other such frames arrive in need of further
machining? Or was that basically just an Italian thing? How about 3
Rensho or other Japanese handbuilders?

Early 3Rensho (Downtube lettering is inside an oval panel)
were just as sloppy as Italian bikes. Since my other company
was the exclusive importer for many years I know something
about this.

After 1982 all frames were tapped & faced, head tubes
milled, crowns milled, columns exactly 42mm over heads and
serial numbers stamped into the columns. None of those were
done before and all that cost about $12 extra per frameset.

Importers who insist and who pay get clean frame finish
detail work. Those who idly whine and who don't pay don't
get clean frames. It is just as much a negotiable cost as
carton wall thickness or packing material or chrome or
special frame material or anything else. Manufacturers will
make what you want the way you want it at some price.
Wishful thinking is not the same as contract negotiation.

I owned part of another company which imported Holdsworth at
one time. With six importers there was no clear direction
and frame finish quality was mediocre. Better than most
Italian bikes of the era but nowhere near 3Rensho at the
same time because no one person took any initiative to do
anything about it.

Even American builders vary a lot. Andy Newlands used to
deliver just perfectly prepped frames, as nice as you'd ever
want. At the same time Cuevas assumed the shop had a few
extra hours available.

Before I worked here, I ordered a custom Hetchins which
arrived with brass spilled in the BB threads. That same year
we imported complete Cinelli bicycles which arrived three
per wooden crate perfectly ready to ride with pedals in,
front wheels off and only lacking tire cement.

Short answer: all over the place.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Dans le message de . 171.65,
Mike DeMicco a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in
ups.com:



NoNeedForAName wrote:
Just looked at truvativ and raceface web sites. Looks as if they
are not offering NEW ISIS cranks anymore. Is the ISIS movement
slowly grinding to a halt? (No pun intended)

ISIS and Octalink do have the problem of low reliability cuz of teeny
bearings and the external bearing gig does fix this problem(adding a
few also).

Like what? Seems the external bearing crank with the pinch bolt is
pretty much a much improved system (i.e., no backlash in the splines,
stiff mountings to prevent chain rub when sprinting or powering in a
big gear, long bearing life, easily adjustable, etc.).

In the April volume of Top Vélo, they tested 23 cranks, and 6 of the
external bearing ones were in a grouping at the very top, so far as
stiffness goes. Two were lower rated, both by FRM. Understanding that
bottom brackets influence the stiffness measurements of 3-piece cranks, the
12 bottom brackets, ISIS and square, were measured to deflect within one
millimeter variance. It appears, from that, that the external bearing
set-up is superior for stiffness. Longevity, of course, is not so easily
determined. I guess we'll have to wait for that ...
--
Bonne route,

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Chalo wrote:
Alex Rodriguez wrote:

says...

I am amazed how few shops here in the 'republic' have BB
facing tools. Only three that know of, only two with Italian and
english.

Maybe frames are coming better prepped straight from the factory?

"Italian" frames are made in the Far East now, where manufacturers can
be held to decent standards for finish and tolerances.
Few 'Italian' frames are made in the far east. You have said this
before and it generally is not true. DeRosa, Pinarello,
Merckx(Belgium), most others are not made in Taiwan.



In my bike shop days, the only frames I saw that were not fit to build
up as supplied were those from Italian, umm, "craftsmen".

Must be a diffferent bike shop than me. Trek and Cannondale are two
that really need prepping, but so do European frames.

I would not be surprised to find that some other frames coming from
makers with Mystical Traditions also needed to be finished by the
retailer. But all the mass-market frames I ever saw were good to go,
as were the fancy USA-made frames with somebody's name on the downtube.


I'd like to hear from some of the old-timers on this. Did Mercian,
Hetchins, Singer, Herse, or other such frames arrive in need of further
machining? Or was that basically just an Italian thing? How about 3
Rensho or other Japanese handbuilders?


All frames then and now need to be prepped. Why the disdain for Italin
makers? Not only for the frames but for things like Italian threading?

Chalo Colin

Mike DeMicco wrote:
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in
ups.com:



NoNeedForAName wrote:
Just looked at truvativ and raceface web sites. Looks as if they are
not
offering NEW ISIS cranks anymore. Is the ISIS movement slowly grinding
to a halt? (No pun intended)

ISIS and Octalink do have the problem of low reliability cuz of teeny
bearings and the external bearing gig does fix this problem(adding a
few also).

Like what? Seems the external bearing crank with the pinch bolt is pretty
much a much improved system (i.e., no backlash in the splines, stiff
mountings to prevent chain rub when sprinting or powering in a big gear,
long bearing life, easily adjustable, etc.).


As I mentioned, proper BB shell width is critical. Most shops cannot
face BB shells and if it is too large it drags so much it is unusable.
If it is too small, spacers must be installed, that are not included
with the BB.

Bearings are pretty low end, even on the $375 models, plastic parts
abound, the chainrings are pretty but pretty soft.

--
Mike DeMicco

Alex Rodriguez wrote:
In article .com,
says...

For frames that are not prepped or not made well, installing these may
be a challenge. For shops w/o facing tools, installing may not be
possible. I am amazed how few shops here in the 'republic' have BB
facing tools. Only three that know of, only two with Italian and
english.

Maybe frames are coming better prepped straight from the factory?
--------------
Alex

One thing we do is assemble bicycles that customers buy elsewhere and
bring to us. BIG part of our biz, so we see all sorts of European and
American frames, most of them high end and all need to be prepped. From
Colnago to Cyfac to Giant to Trek.

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

All frames then and now need to be prepped. Why the disdain for Italin
makers? Not only for the frames but for things like Italian threading?

Italian mixed metric/inch threading is dumb, but it does not reflect at
all on level of finish. I'm just saying that all the unfinished frames
I've seen in a shop have been Italian, while the other frames I've seen
were furnished ready to assemble. Andy Muzi has seen a lot more frames
from a lot more makers than I have, and he relates observations about
other kinds of frames that have come in an unfinished state.

In my bike shop days, my whole experience with Italian frames was that
they cost 2 to 3 times what equal or better other frames did, and that
they arrived in need of finish machining. More recently, I have
noticed that Torelli frames arrive at my LBS fully finshed, and with
better paint details and more careful lug work than I remember seeing
on Pinarello, Colnago, De Rosa, Daccordi, and Ciocc frames. There may
be other well-finished Italian frames besides Torelli, and some of the
makers I have named may have tightened things up since then. But I
haven't seen that myself or heard it from folks in shops.

I haven't looked at many Italian frames on a regular basis since the
early '90s; if any of them were carefully detailed, they left no
impression. What I do remember was a lot of frames that looked nice at
20 feet and not so nice on closer examination. And I remember that you
had to cut metal before you could build them up, even though they cost
a lot more that what I considered technically better frames.

I admit I'm not charmed by gaudy multicolor paint, goofy fluted tubing,
cutesy shaped cutouts in lugs, and shiny chrome applied over file
marks. To me that stuff looks like it belongs in a Mexican trinket
shop. So for me these bikes must rest on their technical merits. And
they're just not very impressive technically, despite their cost.

The Italian bicycle industry seems to be wholeheartedly switching from
silly-looking, gimmicky lugged steel frames to silly-looking, gimmicky
CFRP and aluminum frames. The newer products also have issues, but
they are not the same issues.

Chalo Colina

Chalo wrote:
[snippage]
In my bike shop days, my whole experience with Italian frames was that
they cost 2 to 3 times what equal or better other frames did, and that
they arrived in need of finish machining. More recently, I have
noticed that Torelli frames arrive at my LBS fully finshed, and with
better paint details and more careful lug work than I remember seeing
on Pinarello, Colnago, De Rosa, Daccordi, and Ciocc frames.

My understanding is that Torelli imports bare frames, then preps and
paints them in the US. At least that was the hype I got from a dealer.

I subsequently got a frame through Torelli, it was very nicely finished
indeed, and the paint has been pretty durable.

On a very different frame-prep note, in the early 80's I was in the
market for a pair of mountain bikes. Outside of custom frames, I could
only find one brand that was making frames small enough for my wife.
Very quickly we were down to one model, so we went "shop" shopping in
the SF Bay area. The shop that won our business had a practice of
taking the mostly-assembled bikes out of the box, pulling the BB and
headset, facing the tubes, and reassembling. [Only for the
higher-priced bikes, of course.] I was very impressed.

Mark

Mark Janeba wrote:

The shop that won our business had a practice of
taking the mostly-assembled bikes out of the box, pulling the BB and
headset, facing the tubes, and reassembling. [Only for the
higher-priced bikes, of course.] I was very impressed.

Prepping a frame-- even a frame that doesn't need it-- is often done as
a courtesy to the buyer of an expensive bike. In my experience, most
frames that get this treatment don't need it-- only the ones with a
Mystical Tradition of not finishing the frame at the factory.

I think that's most of the value in a shop doing the finish machining
on a new frame without evident problems-- the proprietor knows it's
been taken care of, and the customer knows it's been taken care of. It
may actually be _further_ from ideal spec than before, but both parties
can be confident in it.

As a machinist, I observe a different tradition: When you meet your
tolerances, stop cutting. I have never seen a shop mechanic measure
the frame bores and faces to determine whether a new frame actually
_should_ be faced, reamed, etc. They just do it, or they don't. Guess
whose decision can be reconsidered at a later time?

Chalo Colina

Chalo wrote:


The Italian bicycle industry seems to be wholeheartedly switching from
silly-looking, gimmicky lugged steel frames to silly-looking, gimmicky
CFRP and aluminum frames. The newer products also have issues, but
they are not the same issues.

Chalo Colina

I think for gimmicks, you also need to include the US frame makers,
even tho they are made on Taiwan and China.

Things like CF with goody plastic inserts(Specialized), multi shaped
and strangly mised materials(Trek/Lemond/Klein), A departure from the
long history with great aluminum to CF, driven by
marketing(Cannondale), titanium mixed with CF, for what reason I do not
know(Serotta, Seven, Dean, many others), a dedication to compact frames
even tho most will agree it does nothing but save the maker
money(Giant).

Your issues with the bicycle market today is appreciated, and I agree,
but at frame makers across the board. Steel makers here in the US and
in Italty still prodiuce well made frames that are not expensive and a
joy to ride(Waterford/Gunnar and Mondonico/Torelli the two I deal in).
All is not lost and not lost in Italy.

Chalo wrote:
Mark Janeba wrote:

The shop that won our business had a practice of
taking the mostly-assembled bikes out of the box, pulling the BB and
headset, facing the tubes, and reassembling. [Only for the
higher-priced bikes, of course.] I was very impressed.

Prepping a frame-- even a frame that doesn't need it-- is often done
as a courtesy to the buyer of an expensive bike. In my experience,
most frames that get this treatment don't need it-- only the ones
with a Mystical Tradition of not finishing the frame at the factory.

I think that's most of the value in a shop doing the finish machining
on a new frame without evident problems-- the proprietor knows it's
been taken care of, and the customer knows it's been taken care of.
It may actually be _further_ from ideal spec than before, but both
parties can be confident in it.

As a machinist, I observe a different tradition: When you meet your
tolerances, stop cutting. I have never seen a shop mechanic measure
the frame bores and faces to determine whether a new frame actually
_should_ be faced, reamed, etc. They just do it, or they don't.
Guess whose decision can be reconsidered at a later time?

For BBs, can't you eyeball it? For headtubes, doesn't the facer have a
certain diameter so it wouldn't go too large anyways?



--
Phil, Squid-in-Training