Bike messengers take to track racing

Jay Beattie wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

But no denying that riding around on a fixed all day every day
is good
training for racing.

I'm not so sure about this last point. I rode on a team
populated by messengers, and it seems to me that the good ones
got better after they quit. Many complained that sprinting a few
blocks and then going up an elevator was not very good training.
A lot of those guys spend more time walking around buildings than
they do on their bikes -- especially if their dispatchers have
their deliveries mapped out carefully. -- Jay Beattie.

I was thinking about good training as compared to sitting in a cubicle
pretending to do work while posting to newsgroups... ;-)

And as another poster pointed out there are some "long distance"
specialists. Sure they make less money because it's still per delivery
and there are riding back and forth from midtown to downtown the whole
time, but the rider doesn't really care because they are doing it for
the training, not the money.

Joseph

On 13 Jun 2005 21:50:19 -0700, wrote:

I prefer road bikes. I've only ridden about 30K miles
total on track bikes with no brakes. But I don't think
you understand where crosstown speed comes from. Not
from the legs or the bike. It comes from the eyes and
the head. It comes from knowing the lights, using the
whole city surface, choosing the best route, and looking
and thinking ahead to apply constant micro-adjustments
in speed and postion. That said, a rider with a freewheel
and brakes will be able to carry more speed toward
blind intersections, and down hills. The more clogged
the streets are, the less useful a brake becomes.

You seem to believe a fixie is synonymous with no brakes (or you wouldn't
be using pro-fixie arguments to shore up no-brakes riding). It's not. So
are you stupid, ignorant, or setting up straw men? It has to be one of
those three.

Jasper

wrote:

I wasn't aware there was a "Messenger Ethos." Nobody
sent ME a copy.

(Sorry for the delay, my computer broke.) No brakes, no gears, I don't
know about the bone in the nose...
There a few main reasons why SOME messengers
go no brakes (relatively few do anymore),
and seeking "the fear rush" is not one I'm familiar
with. Mostly it's the aforementioned rookies trying to
look cool to their peers, or get a rise out of haters
like yourself

Please. "Debunker" (inre "messengers with no brakes can stop faster
than riders with brakes". No way hose-ay, besides tearing up tires.).

If a vet messenger is riding a track
bike, spare him/her the monday morning weekend warrior
judgment. They're just as safe on that bike as
on a geared bike with brakes, and fundamentally as safe
as they would be with a front brake.

If they can't stop as fast as a bike with "real" brakes, they are not
anything like "just as safe".

These [experienced messengers] are the most
conservative riders out there.

Which means-- they ride slow enough to stop with only their legs?

(I wrote):

I find modulating the stopping power of caliper
brakes, with the smaller muscles of my hands, to be a lot more accurate
than using the big muscles of my legs stomping backwards on the pedals.

(reply)
No way, there is no substitute for a fixed gear for
precise, instantaneous micro-adjustments of speed.
That's where a track bike has an advantage over a road
bike in traffic.

I've ridden in racing packs both on the road and on the velodrome. If
you have a hand on a lever, the caliper wins for control and speed. And
traffic? I've saved my hide with brakes several times over the years,
in situations (people turning left in front of me, nowhere to go to
escape)where I couldn't have slowed, or stopped, in time by
backpedaling. And I've been practicing a little here, lately, on the
backpedal. No comparison for power or speed in getting stopped or very
slow.

(braking on ice, advantages of fixed):
The ability to brake from the most stable position, and
apply instantaneous, unhurried, and infinitely subtle
braking force without any sort of reaching, indeed without
any upper body movement whatsoever.

I'm probably not reaching, I'm probably ready to squeeze a lever, and
the motion does not upset balance anywhere near stomping backwards on
pedals. Or you can go to the "superiority section" of the Messenger
Ethos, and claim that the good ones can stop not only shorter, but
smoother by backpedaling than their inferiors can with caliper brakes.
Well, of course, the only reason riders aren't slamming into each other
constantly on the 'drome is that nobody has brakes. In traffic, most
vehicles do have brakes.

But I don't think
you understand where crosstown speed comes from. Not
from the legs or the bike. It comes from the eyes and
the head. It comes from knowing the lights, using the
whole city surface, choosing the best route, and looking
and thinking ahead to apply constant micro-adjustments
in speed and postion. That said, a rider with a freewheel
and brakes will be able to carry more speed toward
blind intersections, and down hills. The more clogged
the streets are, the less useful a brake becomes.

Crosstown speed comes from beating lights. I've ridden regularly in
downtown Houston, Texas, and survived (so much for my "eyes and head").
The more clogged the streets are, the more "incidents" leading to two
objects trying to occupy the same space/time.

I was waiting for a light the other day with another rider, a commuter,
trying to cross a busy four-lane plus center turn lane from a
sidestreet. From the other side of the intersection came a guy in a
funny-looking hat (no nosebone)on a brakeless fixed who jumped a gap in
front of the oncoming westbounds, and made it through a gap in the
eastbounds, going by us with some kind of expression on his face. Cool,
he just scared and/or ****ed off some number of motorists and other
observers, and broke a traffic law to do it (which is, besides the
"scaring" part, the second thing that ****es motorists off the most
about cyclists-- right or wrong, no matter how many laws the motorists
break themselves)and saved himself maybe 30 seconds. One good thing is
that here in Texas if he screwed up his timing and got hit, the
motorist would most likely not get a ticket. That ignores, of course,
the "scaring" part, which goes to that Ethos again: you know, "**** the
civilians".

Jasper Janssen wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 21:50:19 -0700, wrote:

I prefer road bikes. I've only ridden about 30K miles
total on track bikes with no brakes. But I don't think
you understand where crosstown speed comes from. Not
from the legs or the bike. It comes from the eyes and
the head. It comes from knowing the lights, using the
whole city surface, choosing the best route, and looking
and thinking ahead to apply constant micro-adjustments
in speed and postion. That said, a rider with a freewheel
and brakes will be able to carry more speed toward
blind intersections, and down hills. The more clogged
the streets are, the less useful a brake becomes.

You seem to believe a fixie is synonymous with no brakes (or you wouldn't
be using pro-fixie arguments to shore up no-brakes riding). It's not. So
are you stupid, ignorant, or setting up straw men? It has to be one of
those three.

What the hell you talkin about Jasper. If you're going
to post to a thread two weeks after it's dead, you should
at least read it first.

wrote:
wrote:

I wasn't aware there was a "Messenger Ethos." Nobody
sent ME a copy.

(Sorry for the delay, my computer broke.) No brakes, no gears, I don't
know about the bone in the nose...

Like I said most messengers use brakes, most probably
ridng mtn bikes these days. Could it be you don't know
dick about the "Messenger Ethos?" Could it be that there
is no such thing as a "Messenger Ethos?"

There a few main reasons why SOME messengers
go no brakes (relatively few do anymore),
and seeking "the fear rush" is not one I'm familiar
with. Mostly it's the aforementioned rookies trying to
look cool to their peers, or get a rise out of haters
like yourself

Please. "Debunker" (inre "messengers with no brakes can stop faster
than riders with brakes". No way hose-ay, besides tearing up tires.).

I think the guy was probably sayng that a good messenger
on a track bike could stop faster than YOU on your
road bike, which is certainly possible.

If a vet messenger is riding a track
bike, spare him/her the monday morning weekend warrior
judgment. They're just as safe on that bike as
on a geared bike with brakes, and fundamentally as safe
as they would be with a front brake.

If they can't stop as fast as a bike with "real" brakes, they are not
anything like "just as safe".

They are much safer than the serial panic stopper
if they never have to panic stop. Besides, you think a
front brake will save your ass if you have to panic stop
on your fixed gear? Might save your knees from blowing
out, right before you land on your face.

These [experienced messengers] are the most
conservative riders out there.

Which means-- they ride slow enough to stop with only their legs?

Yeah, wrap your mind around it. More specifically,
they ride slow enough to stop 'with their legs'
when conditions demand it, and know exactly when
conditions demand it.



(braking on ice, advantages of fixed):
The ability to brake from the most stable position, and
apply instantaneous, unhurried, and infinitely subtle
braking force without any sort of reaching, indeed without
any upper body movement whatsoever.

I'm probably not reaching, I'm probably ready to squeeze a lever,

Never ride with your hands on the tops? Or are
you talking about flat bars.

Crosstown speed comes from beating lights.

Real crosstown speed, if you want to get down to it,
comes from not stopping at reds and not getting stuck
trying to cross busy streets. The latter is a skill
that comes with experience. But messengers dont
have to get into the full-on hurry up offense too often
anyway. Most of that comes off the job in alley cat
races these days.

I've ridden regularly in
downtown Houston, Texas, and survived (so much for my "eyes and head").
The more clogged the streets are, the more "incidents" leading to two
objects trying to occupy the same space/time.

You may be interested to learn that Houston is often
cited as the easiest of all North American cities in
which to work as a bike courier, even with the heat.

I was waiting for a light the other day with another rider, a commuter,
trying to cross a busy four-lane plus center turn lane from a
sidestreet. From the other side of the intersection came a guy in a
funny-looking hat (no nosebone)on a brakeless fixed who jumped a gap in
front of the oncoming westbounds, and made it through a gap in the
eastbounds, going by us with some kind of expression on his face. Cool,
he just scared and/or ****ed off some number of motorists and other
observers, and broke a traffic law to do it (which is, besides the
"scaring" part, the second thing that ****es motorists off the most
about cyclists-- right or wrong, no matter how many laws the motorists
break themselves)and saved himself maybe 30 seconds. One good thing is
that here in Texas if he screwed up his timing and got hit, the
motorist would most likely not get a ticket. That ignores, of course,
the "scaring" part, which goes to that Ethos again: you know, "**** the
civilians".

**** the civilians. Wow, you're a real jackass. Are
you basing your whole messenger ethos speech on an
encounter with one single individual? Do you know any
actual messengers? What I'm trying to figure out is
how you got all this insider knowledge on the whole
bike messenger ethos and I've worked as a messenger for
almost 14 years and nobody ever clued me in.
Obviously I have been in gross violation of the messenger
ethos. Are they going to come and revoke my cut-off
janitor pants and PBR paraphernalia? Do you honestly
think messengers make a habit of scaring pedestrians
on purpose? You're off the deep end man. Any messenger
quickly develops a respect for the dangers of city
traffic that extends to the pedestrians who share the
streets with us. The last thing you want to do is ram
some poor pedestrian and have it be your fault. It's not
just cars and trucks out there, there are old ladies and
baby carriages and all kinds of little kids running
around.

You seem to be just another slightly dim fellow who has
mistaken the normal day-to-day activities of bike
messengers with a "**** you" to the world. But running
lights, not stopping, moving through city traffic in a
way that seems reckless to the uninitiated but is in fact
very controlled, is exactly what the job entails. All
day long, every day. Get over it man. And get out of the
way.

Robert

wrote:
Could it be you don't know
dick about the "Messenger Ethos?" Could it be that there
is no such thing as a "Messenger Ethos?"

Or you could be into heavy denial? "We run lights as a regular
practice" is not an ethos detail?????

I think the guy was probably sayng that a good messenger
on a track bike could stop faster than YOU on your
road bike, which is certainly possible.

Oh yeah, just like you, def. a superior attitude. Without knowing
anything about my abilities, of course, and ignoring the fact that the
front wheel does most of the stopping-- at least if there's a brake
attached. Yup, an automatic putdown, pow. Part of the "we're better
than you" ethos. Why deny? Roadies have the same mindset, no denial or
fudging of that here. Except that the roadies might actually be
correct, of course!

If a vet messenger is riding a track
bike, spare him/her the monday morning weekend warrior
judgment.

"Copping the superior attitude" (i.e., calling me a WW, MMQB).

They are much safer than the serial panic stopper
if they never have to panic stop.

"Copping the superior attitude" (imputing that I'm a SPS).

Besides, you think a
front brake will save your ass if you have to panic stop
on your fixed gear? Might save your knees from blowing
out, right before you land on your face.

Or might get me slowed enough, quick enough to avoid being hit by the
ignorant oncoming left-turner, or lane-entering right-turner, who
otherwise might likely have nailed me. I can think of three or four
such incidents off the top of my head over the last 25 years. I just
don't pretend they don't happen, or can't happen, just because I'm
paying attention (which is all the vaunted brakeless ones are doing in
the first place).

These [experienced messengers] are the most
conservative riders out there.

Which means-- they ride slow enough to stop with only their legs?

Yeah, wrap your mind around it. More specifically,
they ride slow enough to stop 'with their legs'
when conditions demand it, and know exactly when
conditions demand it.

Which is counterproductive when you're being paid per run with a
limited number of hours in the day. Debunk.

Never ride with your hands on the tops? Or are
you talking about flat bars.

"Superior attitude" (Yo mama rides with flat bars).

(I noted):
Crosstown speed comes from beating lights.

(reply):
Real crosstown speed, if you want to get down to it,
comes from not stopping at reds and not getting stuck
trying to cross busy streets. The latter is a skill
that comes with experience. But messengers dont
have to get into the full-on hurry up offense too often
anyway.

Fewer calls/day, less income. Debunk.

(me):
I've ridden regularly in
downtown Houston, Texas, and survived (so much for my "eyes and head").
The more clogged the streets are, the more "incidents" leading to two
objects trying to occupy the same space/time.

(him):
You may be interested to learn that Houston is often
cited as the easiest of all North American cities in
which to work as a bike courier, even with the heat.

That doesn't have much to do with kind and gentle MV driving habits
IME. Yeah, it's easy to find your way around, but the environment is
hostile to bikes. Who "cites" Houston as bike-friendly? They're
bull****ting. But then, I've actually ridden there so I know better
than to believe.

**** the civilians. Wow, you're a real jackass.

I submit that the jackasses are the riders who flout traffic laws while
being observed by motorists and pedestrians. This is a big, big problem
for the cycling community. The "air of superiority" ("we are above the
law")is a huge public relations problem for the rest of the cycling
community. Yes, running red lights is "FTC's", big big big time.
Something you might "wrap your own head around".

Are
you basing your whole messenger ethos speech on an
encounter with one single individual?

Um, no.

Do you know any actual messengers?

I'm imagining a social scene where I show up with my Ergo Eddy Merckx
and attempt to buddy up with members of the brakeless crowd. Or why I
would want to do such a thing in the first place. (Answer: no, I'm not
socially connected with any actual messengers, so far as I know).

What I'm trying to figure out is
how you got all this insider knowledge on the whole
bike messenger ethos and I've worked as a messenger for
almost 14 years and nobody ever clued me in.

Denial. Stonewalling. "Running red lights is OK for me because I'm a
pro".

You seem to be just another slightly dim fellow who has
mistaken the normal day-to-day activities of bike
messengers with a "**** you" to the world.

No mistake. "Slightly dim"? another superior attitude incident. It's
("normal messenger day-to-day) a FU and a "I'm too poor to pay
attention" statement, also. Maybe messengering is just not a very
advantageous lifestyle choice?

But running
lights, not stopping, moving through city traffic in a
way that seems reckless to the uninitiated but is in fact
very controlled, is exactly what the job entails.

Bull. Unlawful (just to mark a point)and indeed reckless, meaning
"taking a lot of chances"; since you do not have control over the other
vehicles on the road, you're just guessing about what's going to happen
next. Don't try to glorify.

"We don't follow the traffic rules" is a Messenger Ethos item you have
embraced fully, it would seem.

All
day long, every day. Get over it man. And get out of the
way.

Or you'll run over my toes and be gone before I can catch you? You're
not going to sneak around the public relations problem by insult or
threat. Where I came in was problems noted at a track, with messengers
causing and/or being involved in accidents, and the "faster stopping
with no brakes" idiocy (which you have defended). The "public image"
thing, although really probably most important, is just gravy (IMO) in
this discussion.

New messenger hit, went into a coma and died, after running a red
light:
http://www.ahalenia.com/memorial/nbarkelay.html

They had a protest ride, "nobody dared honk". Implying that scofflaw
riders get honked at with regularity? Surprise, surprise! How about
some consideration for the involved motorist, for all the violent
asshole drivers out there and all, what about the presumed-innocent
driver? --TP

wrote:
wrote:
Could it be you don't know
dick about the "Messenger Ethos?" Could it be that there
is no such thing as a "Messenger Ethos?"

Or you could be into heavy denial? "We run lights as a regular
practice" is not an ethos detail?????

Yeah, like digging ditches is part of the ditch digger 'ethos'
or designing buildings is part of the architect's 'ethos.'
Get it? You have obviously mistaken the day to day mundane
aspects of package delivery for some kind of attitude or
'ethos.' Messengers get paid to run lights. That's as good a
description of the job as any. Sorry, if you have a problem with
it take it up with the law firms and architecture and design
firms thatdrive this industry not the individual messengers
trying to pay the rent.

I think the guy was probably sayng that a good messenger
on a track bike could stop faster than YOU on your
road bike, which is certainly possible.

Oh yeah, just like you, def. a superior attitude. Without knowing
anything about my abilities, of course..

Depending on you and depending on the messenger, it
is certainly possible. Do you deny it? Remember that some of
these guys/gals have logged over 300000 miles on no brakes
track bikes in crowded cities. They ride whatever bike
they're most comfortable on. Do you have any idea how rickety
a contraption a regular road bike feels like after riding
a track bike around your whole life?


These [experienced messengers] are the most
conservative riders out there.

Which means-- they ride slow enough to stop with only their legs?

Yeah, wrap your mind around it. More specifically,
they ride slow enough to stop 'with their legs'
when conditions demand it, and know exactly when
conditions demand it.

Which is counterproductive when you're being paid per run with a
limited number of hours in the day. Debunk.

There are only so many runs available. Like I SAID, messengers dont
have to get into full code red hurry up mode very often these days.
What's most important is to keep moving, smooth and steady. Dont
get hit and dont get caught. And when the streets are very crowded,
cycling speeds are low enough that your brake aint going to provide
any advantage over the messenger's track bike, to the contrary.

(me):
I've ridden regularly in
downtown Houston, Texas, and survived (so much for my "eyes and head").
The more clogged the streets are, the more "incidents" leading to two
objects trying to occupy the same space/time.

(him):
You may be interested to learn that Houston is often
cited as the easiest of all North American cities in
which to work as a bike courier, even with the heat.

That doesn't have much to do with kind and gentle MV driving habits
IME. Yeah, it's easy to find your way around, but the environment is
hostile to bikes. Who "cites" Houston as bike-friendly? They're
bull****ting. But then, I've actually ridden there so I know better
than to believe.

Nobody says it's 'bike friendly.'
But veteran couriers who have worked
in several cities often cite Houston as the easiest city to work in.
Easier than Seattle, easier thanDenver traffic-wise. Not even
close to Boston or NYC.


**** the civilians. Wow, you're a real jackass.

I submit that the jackasses are the riders who flout traffic laws while
being observed by motorists and pedestrians. This is a big, big problem
for the cycling community. The "air of superiority" ("we are above the
law")is a huge public relations problem for the rest of the cycling
community. Yes, running red lights is "FTC's", big big big time.
Something you might "wrap your own head around".

Oh yeah, cyclists' PR problems are all the messengers' fault
right? Rec riders and "roadies" never run red lights right?
Give me a break. At least the messengers have a good reason for
doing it. People who actually live and work in cities
understand that.

Do you know any actual messengers?
I'm imagining a social scene where I show up with my Ergo Eddy Merckx
and attempt to buddy up with members of the brakeless crowd. Or why I
would want to do such a thing in the first place. (Answer: no, I'm not
socially connected with any actual messengers, so far as I know).

Man you're a snob. You should quit
tlking **** about people and things
you know nothing about.

What I'm trying to figure out is
how you got all this insider knowledge on the whole
bike messenger ethos and I've worked as a messenger for
almost 14 years and nobody ever clued me in.

Denial. Stonewalling. "Running red lights is OK for me because I'm a
pro".

Whether running red lights is OK or not is beside the point. The fact
is it's my job, as it is every bike messenger's job, and I will
continue
to do it as long as it is my job. Strangely enough, when I'm done with
the work day and heading home, I stop at the lights, and none of the
commuters stop with me. It's not their job. Is this just part of the
'commuter ethos?' Personally I feel that the poor manners in traffic
exhibited by commuters and 'roadies' is a problem for ME, but I
wont be whining about it like a little girl.

You seem to be just another slightly dim fellow who has
mistaken the normal day-to-day activities of bike
messengers with a "**** you" to the world.

No mistake. "Slightly dim"? another superior attitude incident. It's
("normal messenger day-to-day) a FU and a "I'm too poor to pay
attention" statement, also. Maybe messengering is just not a very
advantageous lifestyle choice?

Not recommended unless you really love riding bikes, then it's hard
to beat. Do you actually like riding bikes, or do you just like
looking like a Real Cyclist? Are you one of those guys who leaves his
Eddy Merckx parked in front of the coffee shop all day? I will just
say that it's hard to look like a Real Cyclist with spindly little
legs. Get out and ride that thing and get your nose out of other
people's business.

But running
lights, not stopping, moving through city traffic in a
way that seems reckless to the uninitiated but is in fact
very controlled, is exactly what the job entails.

Bull. Unlawful (just to mark a point)and indeed reckless, meaning
"taking a lot of chances"

Not me, sorry.

since you do not have control over the other
vehicles on the road, you're just guessing about what's going to happen
next. Don't try to glorify.

I don't get into guessing games with vehicles drivers or pedestrians,
I take my fate into my own hands whether I'm running a green light
or a red one.

"We don't follow the traffic rules" is a Messenger Ethos item you have
embraced fully, it would seem.

Not too smart are ye.

All
day long, every day. Get over it man. And get out of the
way.

Or you'll run over my toes and be gone before I can catch you?

If I ever run over somebody's toes, and I have yet to do so in almost
14 years as a courier, I would stop and apologize.

Some messenger poseur ran over your toesies once I presume?

You're
not going to sneak around the public relations problem by insult or
threat. Where I came in was problems noted at a track, with messengers
causing and/or being involved in accidents, and the "faster stopping
with no brakes" idiocy (which you have defended). The "public image"
thing, although really probably most important, is just gravy (IMO) in
this discussion.

Yeah messengers have a pr problem. Two big reasons for this: some
people
are too idiotic to understand that messenger work is just that, WORK,
and have to romanticize it into the manifestation of some scofflaw
FU attitude. And most of the people out there who have messenger bags
and are trying to look like messengers aren't actual messengers, but
are just urban hipster poseurs and the messenger haters are
too ignorant to know the difference.

R

wrote:

Yeah, like digging ditches is part of the ditch digger 'ethos'
or designing buildings is part of the architect's 'ethos.'
Get it? You have obviously mistaken the day to day mundane
aspects of package delivery for some kind of attitude or
'ethos.' Messengers get paid to run lights. That's as good a
description of the job as any. Sorry, if you have a problem with
it take it up with the law firms and architecture and design
firms thatdrive this industry not the individual messengers
trying to pay the rent.

Using a bike that is speed limited, harder to accelerate, dangerous to
ride fast is the choice of the people who ride such bikes. Period.
Messengers "get paid" to deliver letters and packages. Running red
lights is a choice, and it sure is part of the ethos, by your own
statement. You can't have it both ways.


Depending on you and depending on the messenger, it
is certainly possible. Do you deny it?

When I'm old and can't squeeze a lever any more?

Remember that some of
these guys/gals have logged over 300000 miles on no brakes
track bikes in crowded cities.

Practicing "wrong" leads to performing "wrong".

They ride whatever bike
they're most comfortable on.

They seem to be subject to such severe peer pressure that they make
very poor bike choices.

Do you have any idea how rickety
a contraption a regular road bike feels like after riding
a track bike around your whole life?

Rickety? Not the comparison I'd make, between my own OS tube track bike
(plus Alkek rentals) and various road bikes I've owned. "Harder to
stop" would be valid.

There are only so many runs available. Like I SAID, messengers dont
have to get into full code red hurry up mode very often these days.
What's most important is to keep moving, smooth and steady. Dont
get hit and dont get caught. And when the streets are very crowded,
cycling speeds are low enough that your brake aint going to provide
any advantage over the messenger's track bike, to the contrary.

Denial.

Nobody says it's 'bike friendly.'
But veteran couriers who have worked
in several cities often cite Houston as the easiest city to work in.
Easier than Seattle, easier thanDenver traffic-wise. Not even
close to Boston or NYC.

Citation, please.

Oh yeah, cyclists' PR problems are all the messengers' fault
right? Rec riders and "roadies" never run red lights right?
Give me a break. At least the messengers have a good reason for
doing it. People who actually live and work in cities
understand that.

Traffic laws are regularly broken by all classes of vehicles. If, as
you've said, speed is not really necessary in messenger work, then
where is the "need" to run lights? I don't for one second believe your
assertion about city dwellers being tolerant of scofflaw messengers.

Man you're a snob. You should quit
tlking **** about people and things
you know nothing about.

"Snobbery" is very much a part of the "I can stop faster with no brakes
than you can with your brakes" and the "I need to run red lights"
concept. I've already said (some) roadies have their own well-known
problems with attitudes. So do the 'bent riders and so do the knobby
guys. So do the runners, and the dog walkers and skaters, and vehicle
operators. It's the source of conflict among pavement and trail users
IMHO.

Whether running red lights is OK or not is beside the point. The fact
is it's my job, as it is every bike messenger's job, and I will
continue
to do it as long as it is my job.

Not OK, it is very much "the point", it's not "your job" at all. But
thanks for showing me your ethos (so to speak).

Strangely enough, when I'm done with
the work day and heading home, I stop at the lights, and none of the
commuters stop with me. It's not their job. Is this just part of the
'commuter ethos?' Personally I feel that the poor manners in traffic
exhibited by commuters and 'roadies' is a problem for ME, but I
wont be whining about it like a little girl.

There's an interesting flow. Do you have some flag, like a cabbie, to
show when you're on/off duty, so that those keeping score will know
when to give you points for stopping at reds, or follow other traffic
laws? IOW, something you do all day suddenly becomes wrong when others
do it just because they're not being paid at the time? Ethos.


Not recommended unless you really love riding bikes, then it's hard
to beat. Do you actually like riding bikes (snip)

Yes I do.

or do you just like
looking like a Real Cyclist?

I like riding like a "real" cyclist. The looks are long gone.

Are you one of those guys who leaves his
Eddy Merckx parked in front of the coffee shop all day?

I used to leave my '84 SL Eddy parked in the job trailer back in '87
when I was plumbing new work commercial construction at an Air Force
base. Only guy to show up in lycra on that job.

I will just
say that it's hard to look like a Real Cyclist with spindly little
legs. Get out and ride that thing and get your nose out of other
people's business.

I can only wish that my legs were a little more spindly-- well, not
really, my sprint would probably suffer. Nose in biz? Nope. Debunking.

I don't get into guessing games with vehicles drivers or pedestrians,
I take my fate into my own hands whether I'm running a green light
or a red one.

Please. I did love the "running a green light" concept. When you think
you've heard it all...

Not too smart are ye.

No, just about right in the "smarts" dept. Thanks.

Some messenger poseur ran over your toesies once I presume?

Nope. I've been used as a pylon at one time or another by all the
"transportation groups", and told not to defend myself from dog attack
("don't kick him!!!"). "See above". It's common.

Yeah messengers have a pr problem. Two big reasons for this: some
people
are too idiotic to understand that messenger work is just that, WORK,
and have to romanticize it into the manifestation of some scofflaw
FU attitude.

Running reds and other scofflaw activity is indeed a manifestation of
an FU attitude.

And most of the people out there who have messenger bags
and are trying to look like messengers aren't actual messengers, but
are just urban hipster poseurs and the messenger haters are
too ignorant to know the difference.

I'll just go back to the "why do you ride with no brakes on your
bicycle" point. "Messengers" are the carriers of this ethos, and
lawless riding (as you repeatedly attest). The "poseur" thing is a
little tricky, as some would thus accuse anyone with a "sponsor" jersey
on who is not in the employ of a pro trade team of being. Another form
of snobbery IMO. Again, I'm not a hater. How about scoffer? Debunker?
Hand up. --TP

wrote:

Using a bike that is speed limited,

ALL bikes are limited. When riding a track bike
you simply ride within the limitations of the machine
(which will be different for any given rider).
For some riders who are very skilled, they become
less limited on their track bikes in city traffic
than most road bike riders on their road bikes. This is
the fact that you seem so bunched up about.

harder to accelerate,

Harder to accelerate? ????!!


Messengers "get paid" to deliver letters and packages. Running red
lights is a choice, and it sure is part of the ethos, by your own
statement. You can't have it both ways.

Running red lights, unfortunately, is not really a
choice for a working messenger.

Depending on you and depending on the messenger, it
is certainly possible. Do you deny it?

When I'm old and can't squeeze a lever any more?

If you think stopping fast with hand brakes amounts to
squeezing a lever then you're in deep doo doo.


Nobody says it's 'bike friendly.'
But veteran couriers who have worked
in several cities often cite Houston as the easiest city to work in.
Easier than Seattle, easier thanDenver traffic-wise. Not even
close to Boston or NYC.

Citation, please.

Dude it's in the appendix to the Messenger Ethos
Handbook, look it up.

Seriously just about every messenger I've ever talked
to who's worked in Houston talks about how easy it is
to ride downtown compared to other cities. Rebecca
Reilly worked in about ten different cities before
she wrote a book about her experiences. Most couriers
would agree with her list from easiest to toughest:
Houston, Denver, Seattle, Chicago, San Fran, DC, Philly,
Boston, NYC (iirc). It's basically about space on the
streets.


Oh yeah, cyclists' PR problems are all the messengers' fault
right? Rec riders and "roadies" never run red lights right?
Give me a break. At least the messengers have a good reason for
doing it. People who actually live and work in cities
understand that.

Traffic laws are regularly broken by all classes of vehicles. If, as
you've said, speed is not really necessary in messenger work,

That's not what I said. I said speed doesnt come from
the legs or the bike in the city. I said it comes from
handling the lights and avoiding/getting through busy
crossings.

Speed is what messenger work is all about. Ask yourself--
why do bike messengers even exist at all in city centers?
Do you think the clients of these companies just think
it's cute to have a guy on a bike deliver their packages?
Bike messengers exist and are employed because they can
do what nobody else can do, which is slice through
city traffic completely divorced from the traffic laws
but still in a manner that is safe, reliable, and,
on some level, even conservative.

Consider that the clients of these messengers demand
delivery times of 15 minutes or less from the time their
order is placed. Consider that 10 minutes out of that
15 is likely to be spent in elevators. Consider that
while you're sitting there waiting for a light to change,
I'm already 8 blocks away.

When a call comes in from your biggest client at 4:54
and the dispatcher asks you if you can pick the package
and make it to the court before they close, the correct
answer is NOT "depends on the lights."

then
where is the "need" to run lights? I don't for one second believe your
assertion about city dwellers being tolerant of scofflaw messengers.

Even the police, for the most part, are tolerant of
"scofflaw" messengers, because they understand, through
familiarity over time, that the messengers are just doing
their jobs. They dont want to needlessly harrass some
guy who they've seen day in day out doing no harm to
anyone except to the sensitivities of some fragile souls.
Some of my favorite acquaintances downtown are in fact
U.S. Marshalls who have a clear unobstructed front row
seat of me carving up traffic in front of their building
all day long, red lights and all. If they thought I was
a "scofflaw" they wouldn't let me come near their
federal court, understand?


Whether running red lights is OK or not is beside the point. The fact
is it's my job, as it is every bike messenger's job, and I will
continue
to do it as long as it is my job.

Not OK, it is very much "the point", it's not "your job" at all. But
thanks for showing me your ethos (so to speak).

You had better be someone who NEVER runs a red light
to be giving me this lecture. You're not, of course,
so stuff it. I don't come to your
cubicle and tell you how to shuffle your papers
around. Running red lights by messengers may in fact
be not OK, that may be true, but it IS part of the job,
and it's not going to change any time soon. So you
can begin to come to terms with it or continue
****ing up a rope.

Running reds and other scofflaw activity is indeed a manifestation of
an FU attitude.

As a long time messenger to somebody who doesn't know
what the hell they're talking about, believe me, it's
not. I cant remember the last time I went through a
red light with a 'FU attitude.' Of course I
can't speak for the commuters and 'roadies' and all the
other non-messengers out there who are responsible for
99% of all light runnings and other 'scofflaw' cycling,
but messengers are usually just doing their jobs.
Considering YOUR obvious prejudicial attitude against
all messengers, however, it's possible
that the 'FU attitude' you sense from them is directed at
you, and only at you.

Robert

wrote:

Using a bike that is speed limited,

ALL bikes are limited. When riding a track bike
you simply ride within the limitations of the machine
(which will be different for any given rider).
For some riders who are very skilled, they become
less limited on their track bikes in city traffic
than most road bike riders on their road bikes. This is
the fact that you seem so bunched up about.

harder to accelerate,

Harder to accelerate? ????!!


Messengers "get paid" to deliver letters and packages. Running red
lights is a choice, and it sure is part of the ethos, by your own
statement. You can't have it both ways.

Running red lights, unfortunately, is not really a
choice for a working messenger.

Depending on you and depending on the messenger, it
is certainly possible. Do you deny it?

When I'm old and can't squeeze a lever any more?

If you think stopping fast with hand brakes amounts to
squeezing a lever then you're in deep doo doo.


Nobody says it's 'bike friendly.'
But veteran couriers who have worked
in several cities often cite Houston as the easiest city to work in.
Easier than Seattle, easier thanDenver traffic-wise. Not even
close to Boston or NYC.

Citation, please.

Dude it's in the appendix to the Messenger Ethos
Handbook, look it up.

Seriously just about every messenger I've ever talked
to who's worked in Houston talks about how easy it is
to ride downtown compared to other cities. Rebecca
Reilly worked in about ten different cities before
she wrote a book about her experiences. Most couriers
would agree with her list from easiest to toughest:
Houston, Denver, Seattle, Chicago, San Fran, DC, Philly,
Boston, NYC (iirc). It's basically about space on the
streets.


Oh yeah, cyclists' PR problems are all the messengers' fault
right? Rec riders and "roadies" never run red lights right?
Give me a break. At least the messengers have a good reason for
doing it. People who actually live and work in cities
understand that.

Traffic laws are regularly broken by all classes of vehicles. If, as
you've said, speed is not really necessary in messenger work,

That's not what I said. I said speed doesnt come from
the legs or the bike in the city. I said it comes from
handling the lights and avoiding/getting through busy
crossings.

Speed is what messenger work is all about. Ask yourself--
why do bike messengers even exist at all in city centers?
Do you think the clients of these companies just think
it's cute to have a guy on a bike deliver their packages?
Bike messengers exist and are employed because they can
do what nobody else can do, which is slice through
city traffic completely divorced from the traffic laws
but still in a manner that is safe, reliable, and,
on some level, even conservative.

Consider that the clients of these messengers demand
delivery times of 15 minutes or less from the time their
order is placed. Consider that 10 minutes out of that
15 is likely to be spent in elevators. Consider that
while you're sitting there waiting for a light to change,
I'm already 8 blocks away.

When a call comes in from your biggest client at 4:54
and the dispatcher asks you if you can pick the package
and make it to the court before they close, the correct
answer is NOT "depends on the lights."

then
where is the "need" to run lights? I don't for one second believe your
assertion about city dwellers being tolerant of scofflaw messengers.

Even the police, for the most part, are tolerant of
"scofflaw" messengers, because they understand, through
familiarity over time, that the messengers are just doing
their jobs. They dont want to needlessly harrass some
guy who they've seen day in day out doing no harm to
anyone except to the sensitivities of some fragile souls.
Some of my favorite acquaintances downtown are in fact
U.S. Marshalls who have a clear unobstructed front row
seat of me carving up traffic in front of their building
all day long, red lights and all. If they thought I was
a "scofflaw" they wouldn't let me come near their
federal court, understand?


Whether running red lights is OK or not is beside the point. The fact
is it's my job, as it is every bike messenger's job, and I will
continue
to do it as long as it is my job.

Not OK, it is very much "the point", it's not "your job" at all. But
thanks for showing me your ethos (so to speak).

You had better be someone who NEVER runs a red light
to be giving me this lecture. You're not, of course,
so stuff it. I don't come to your
cubicle and tell you how to shuffle your papers
around. Running red lights by messengers may in fact
be not OK, that may be true, but it IS part of the job,
and it's not going to change any time soon. So you
can begin to come to terms with it or continue
****ing up a rope.

Running reds and other scofflaw activity is indeed a manifestation of
an FU attitude.

As a long time messenger to somebody who doesn't know
what the hell they're talking about, believe me, it's
not. I cant remember the last time I went through a
red light with a 'FU attitude.' Of course I
can't speak for the commuters and 'roadies' and all the
other non-messengers out there who are responsible for
99% of all light runnings and other 'scofflaw' cycling,
but messengers are usually just doing their jobs.
Considering YOUR obvious prejudicial attitude against
all messengers, however, it's possible
that the 'FU attitude' you sense from them is directed at
you, and only at you.

Robert